PicoBrew Zymatic

[Denny]

Negative effects, no. There was certainly more foam with these wheat heavy brews than my normal ales, which I really did not notice until I started to whirlpool hops on the Gumball Head clone. I saw a tiny amount of foam come into the foam trap, but it was like a tablespoon or so. Or are you referring to head retention/foam? That I can't answer as the kegerator is currently filled with other beers...might know next week if a keg kicks so if the beers are thin and headless, I will definitely report back, assuming that is what you are asking. Cheers!

Yeah, I was referring to beer foam, not during the process. I've found that a long, low temp rest like that can kill the head.

 

[DemonsRun]

Should I run the high efficiency mash schedule?

I only run the High Efficiency schedule. I have not tried skipping the 20 min Dough-in at 102.

 

[MaCheFai]

Is it safe to add the DME to the grains? I see most people saying to hydrate and add to the keg, but mine is already mixed into my grains.

I also read online that zymatic says it's safe to add DME to the grains, but wanted to get everyone's thoughts prior to starting here today.

We're brewing the Not-Yeti clone and have added 1lb of Light Dry Malt Extract right into the crush. Is this bad?

 

[jrcrilly]

I have made that recipe (one of my very favorites) any number of times on the Z, adding the DME to the grains in the step filter. Never a problem. When I scaled the recipe up to 10 gallons to brew on the main rig I skipped the DME and bumped up the grains. No problem there, either. The first keg from that batch just kicked and, for a change, there is another ready to replace it!

 

[MaCheFai]

Thanks for the reply! Wish I would have seen this earlier! Good to know for future brew though. I was worried the DME would muck up the machine if added from the get go into the grains.

And since you've brewed this a few times in the Z, any recommendations or additions you like to add? Or is it just perfect as is?

 

[jrcrilly]

I like it as it is too much to fiddle with it.

 

[skraeling]

This is all good info... I'll have to try a mash out on an upcoming batch, just to see what affect that has alone. I don't yet understand why a rest at 100 (HE mash) or 120 (stonebrewer) would affect efficiency for an all-barley batch, but you can't argue with the numbers!

mashing out doesnt improve efficiency. mashing out locks in the flavor profile essentially of what you mashed at. it denatures all the enzymes and stops further conversion. Yes enzymes are not instantly denatured, but thats also why mashout lasts for 10-15minutes...

its such an easy step to do with electronically controlled setups that there isnt a reason to not do it really.

 

[jmark]

I use a mashout all the time on my 3 vessel system and didn't really realize that the Z wasn't doing it. I just completed my 3rd batch on the Z yesterday and added a mashout into the schedule. It *did* get me an additional 5 points of gravity (presumably that's just the longer mash duration with additional time at the higher, more active end of the saccharification range). However, this still only brought my brewhouse efficiency up to ~55% from 50% (I don't have my records in front of me, but I think that got me maybe close to 60% mash efficiency). Still seems low, although the only impact that will have is on bigger beers, which I could always do on my 3v system if need be.

 

[aangel]

I use a mashout all the time on my 3 vessel system and didn't really realize that the Z wasn't doing it. I just completed my 3rd batch on the Z yesterday and added a mashout into the schedule. It *did* get me an additional 5 points of gravity (presumably that's just the longer mash duration with additional time at the higher, more active end of the saccharification range). However, this still only brought my brewhouse efficiency up to ~55% from 50% (I don't have my records in front of me, but I think that got me maybe close to 60% mash efficiency). Still seems low, although the only impact that will have is on bigger beers, which I could always do on my 3v system if need be.

Grain efficiency isn't the raison d'etre of the Zymatic - it's easy recipe repeatability and a massive reduction in time spent cleaning/fiddling with equipment and babysitting your brew day.

 

[jmark]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining (much). However, if there are ways to get more out of the 9lb capacity without using DME etc, I'm all ears. Also if I'm doing something that is out of line with others experiences, I'd like to know that too .

 

[pagrider]

just double mash using the advanced editor I have done this on a ten tidy clone

 

[jmark]

So basically a reiterated mash using your first mash wort as the strike liquor for the second mash? Did you add any additional water to account for the grain absorption from the first mash? I've done this a couple of times on my 3v system and it's a nice way to get a nice and thick OG. Jamil and Tasty just talked about this approach too on one of the Brewing Network's podcasts - Jamil calls it a polygyle.

 

[jmadway]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining (much). However, if there are ways to get more out of the 9lb capacity without using DME etc, I'm all ears. Also if I'm doing something that is out of line with others experiences, I'd like to know that too .

I just got a 1.080 OG out of the Z on a 3 gallon batch of "Slip 'O Sunshine" IPA. Now, this recipe calls for a big hit of cane sugar, but I was still happy to hit that number. And that's with 7lbs 12oz of grain, so could have gone higher. High efficiency mash schedule.

 

[banjo-guy]

The Z takes a long time to reach the 207 degree " boiling " temperature. It seems to me that this long slow temperature rise is the mash out.

 

[MaCheFai]

I just got a 1.080 OG out of the Z on a 3 gallon batch of "Slip 'O Sunshine" IPA. Now, this recipe calls for a big hit of cane sugar, but I was still happy to hit that number. And that's with 7lbs 12oz of grain, so could have gone higher. High efficiency mash schedule.

With using the HE schedule, did you find your actual yield to still be 3 gal? I used it on 2 separate a fresh squeezed clones and got a 1.072 OG which was great, but my yield was about 2 gal vs the expected 2.5. Just trying to get to the bottom of it.

I also noticed if I switch from single step to HE multi, it subtracts nearly 1/2 gal of water from the recipe. Shouldn't it add to account for the extra steps through the grains? Or does subtracting water enable them to add to the OG?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, just trying to understand, and also get to the bottom of my missing beer.

 

[jrcrilly]

I also noticed if I switch from single step to HE multi, it subtracts nearly 1/2 gal of water from the recipe. Shouldn't it add to account for the extra steps through the grains? Or does subtracting water enable them to add to the OG? (

Yes, that is intentional and part of the OG boost.

 

[aangel]

Yes, that is intentional and part of the OG boost.

Anyone got the exact numbers on efficiency on PB's two modes? For that matter, anyone got info on higher efficiency mash schedules? I absolutely love my Zymatic but I'm hoping to be able to try out different fermentability levels.

 

[MaCheFai]

Yes, that is intentional and part of the OG boost.

Well if that's the case, shouldn't they also take into account the loss in final yield amounts? Meaning when you make the HE selection, it doesn't drop the final output amounts, it only decreases the amount req'd at start. If it did take that into account, we could adjust the amount of water at the beginning with our intended OG to produce the full yield amounts.

 

[pagrider]

using less grain means less water because there is less absorption.

jmark exactly its a reiterated mash and works excellent. I do this on all my imperial stout recipes whether using the grainfather or the picobrew

 

[jmark]

Thanks... do you add any additional water for the second mash?

 

[pagrider]

yes but not much i use beer smith to calculate the water needed in the case of ten fidy its 3.95. so i use 3.3 on the first mash and then add .65 for the second.

 

[jmark]

Makes sense - really just the amount of water that's absorbed by the first mash. I assume you just put the full batch recipe in BS and then just half the grain bill for each mash... what sort of efficiency do you end up getting in comparison to a normal single mash? I use BS too so this info is much appreciated.

 

[jmadway]

With using the HE schedule, did you find your actual yield to still be 3 gal? I used it on 2 separate a fresh squeezed clones and got a 1.072 OG which was great, but my yield was about 2 gal vs the expected 2.5. Just trying to get to the bottom of it.



I also noticed if I switch from single step to HE multi, it subtracts nearly 1/2 gal of water from the recipe. Shouldn't it add to account for the extra steps through the grains? Or does subtracting water enable them to add to the OG?



Sorry if this has already been discussed, just trying to understand, and also get to the bottom of my missing beer.

I have not noticed that my yield is less than expected. Although because I ferment in my brewing keg, I can only eyeball it, so I don't know for sure.

Anyone else notice this issue?

 

[MaCheFai]

I have not noticed that my yield is less than expected. Although because I ferment in my brewing keg, I can only eyeball it, so I don't know for sure.

Anyone else notice this issue?

Likewise in the fermentation process. And I probably wouldn't have noticed until I stated filling growlers for friends. All of which came up significantly short. 2.5 gal is already pretty small, but coming in under 2 gal's kinda changes things for me. :/

 

[aangel]

Likewise in the fermentation process. And I probably wouldn't have noticed until I stated filling growlers for friends. All of which came up significantly short. 2.5 gal is already pretty small, but coming in under 2 gal's kinda changes things for me. :/

Few ideas here:

1. be absolutely certain of your pre-mash volume (cold)
2. be absolutely certain your PB is level
3. Actually measure your post-boil volume (cold)
4. Then measure your post-ferment volume

For starters.

 

[DemonsRun]

I brew High Efficiency 3.5 gallon batches, and Looking back at my notes some batches I do get a full 28 pints but most are 24-26 pints. so I guess I have lost 1/2 gallon at times. But I do Dry-hop a lot.

 

[pagrider]

Jmark I use 58%

Yes just split grain bill in half

 

[stonebrewer]

Brewed an old favorite last night, my Airwaves IPL. Really disappointing session with the Z. It literally drilled a hole through my grain bed and 10% of my grain never got wet. I ended up stirring everything and mashing a second time. Not sure how this beer will turn out. After mashing the second time, the heat loop got out of whack and the machine error'd out of Error #1. I was too tired to fiddle with it, so I cleaned up, rinsed the machine, and buttoned up the keg for the night. Today I boiled the wort on the stove and finished the process of brewing. Sigh!

 

[Thorrak]

Edit - I'm an idiot, and posted to the wrong thread.

 

[MaCheFai]

Brewed an old favorite last night, my Airwaves IPL. Really disappointing session with the Z. It literally drilled a hole through my grain bed and 10% of my grain never got wet. I ended up stirring everything and mashing a second time. Not sure how this beer will turn out. After mashing the second time, the heat loop got out of whack and the machine error'd out of Error #1. I was too tired to fiddle with it, so I cleaned up, rinsed the machine, and buttoned up the keg for the night. Today I boiled the wort on the stove and finished the process of brewing. Sigh!

That stinks! I haven't had mine drill through like that yet. Although I'm honestly surprised it hasn't. I feel like they could make a couple of simple solutions to the lid to improve efficiency.

To that end, and if it's any consolation, I forgot to add my rubber stoppers onto the step filter yesterday. I wonder why they don't incorporate these into the lid somehow? Anyhow, I set it and left for about 20 mins. Came back to a huge mess! Was off the counters, behind the cabinets and onto the floor.... after pausing, cleaning and starting back up, I then had my inline filter clog during cool down. Took me a bit to troubleshoot. I'd assumed it was my dip tube as I'd been whirl-pooling, but in fact, it was the filter... doubt this one will turn out as expected. Oh well, user error. Learn and move on.

 

[aangel]

That stinks! I haven't had mine drill through like that yet. Although I'm honestly surprised it hasn't. I feel like they could make a couple of simple solutions to the lid to improve efficiency.

To that end, and if it's any consolation, I forgot to add my rubber stoppers onto the step filter yesterday. I wonder why they don't incorporate these into the lid somehow? Anyhow, I set it and left for about 20 mins. Came back to a huge mess! Was off the counters, behind the cabinets and onto the floor.... after pausing, cleaning and starting back up, I then had my inline filter clog during cool down. Took me a bit to troubleshoot. I'd assumed it was my dip tube as I'd been whirl-pooling, but in fact, it was the filter... doubt this one will turn out as expected. Oh well, user error. Learn and move on.

The rubber knobbies are there because the step filters were warping/cracking due to pockets of heat during dishwasher cycles, so the PB team drilled some holes and made some rubber plugs.

 

[MaCheFai]

The rubber knobbies are there because the step filters were warping/cracking due to pockets of heat during dishwasher cycles, so the PB team drilled some holes and made some rubber plugs.

I hear ya, just wish the solution was integrated into the step filter rather than having to remember to pull those rubber guys off each time you clean, and back on each time you brew.

Often times, I don't run it through the dishwasher until the next day after a late night of brewing. Then, possibly not brew for another week or two after that. Honestly, I'm a little surprised it took me this long to forget them!

And considering the number of people this overflow happens to, and considering the ease of integration, just seems like a no-brainer.

 

[MaCheFai]

Hi all,

I saw the max grain load is 9lbs, but what's the max water?

 

[aangel]

Just under 5g to match the intended keg

 

[MaCheFai]

Just under 5g to match the intended keg

So if I have 8.5lbs of grain and 4.5 gals of water, I should be okay? It won't overflow? Does it take into account your ingredients and measure how much liquid is being sent to the step filter as to not have it overflow?

 

[Anyhowe]

So if I have 8.5lbs of grain and 4.5 gals of water, I should be okay? It won't overflow? Does it take into account your ingredients and measure how much liquid is being sent to the step filter as to not have it overflow?

You could then in theory bump up the gravity with DME like the PICO for a 5 gallon batch. This is all making too much sense... given the 5 gallon issue has bugged some people one should think that this idea would have been looked at. I would shoot [email protected] a quick email.

 

[aangel]

So if I have 8.5lbs of grain and 4.5 gals of water, I should be okay? It won't overflow? Does it take into account your ingredients and measure how much liquid is being sent to the step filter as to not have it overflow?

In a word - yup. Most of my batches lately are at the upper limits of both water and grains and I haven't had any problems.

 

[jmark]

Has anyone had attenuation issues with their Z? Back to back batches now for me have stalled out at 1.024+... one with Cal Ale and one with Edinburgh Yeast... both had OG around 1.058 and mashed at 152... both recipes have been done on my regular 3 vessel system and got down to 1.014 and 1.012 respectively. For the Edinburgh batch, I added a half teaspoon of amylase and that got things moving again after being stalked at 1.024 for a week.

I wonder if I've got issues with the Z temp sensors and I'm mashing at higher temps?

 

[MaCheFai]

Has anyone had attenuation issues with their Z? Back to back batches now for me have stalled out at 1.024+... one with Cal Ale and one with Edinburgh Yeast... both had OG around 1.058 and mashed at 152... both recipes have been done on my regular 3 vessel system and got down to 1.014 and 1.012 respectively. For the Edinburgh batch, I added a half teaspoon of amylase and that got things moving again after being stalked at 1.024 for a week.

I wonder if I've got issues with the Z temp sensors and I'm mashing at higher temps?

How were your temps or water? Anything changed on those fronts?

 

[MaCheFai]

In a word - yup. Most of my batches lately are at the upper limits of both water and grains and I haven't had any problems.

Good to know! What's the largest amount you've used and yielded?