Not Renewing BeerSmith3, Staying with Brewfather (Primary) & BeerSmith2 (Backup)

[CodeSection]

I have used Brewfather as my goto software for the past three brews and I have been very happy with it. I did not renew my Brewer's Friend subscription as I stopped using it in 2019 and used BS3 exclusively. Now that my BS3 subscription is about to expire, I'm considering not renewing that as well and just keep BS2 as backup.

I am disappointed in BS3's mash ph estimation tool and have been using Mash Made Easy exclusively. I have no need for support for mead, wine or cider. The only item that BS3 has over BS2 is the water profile tool that allows the selection of a specific water profile from around the world that I like.

IMHO, Brewfather has a better interface and offers integrations with Tilt, iSpindleIs, etc. I had emailed Brad months ago asking if he was planning to integrate those items and he said he was but gave no time frame.

In my situation that I briefly outlined, is there a feature or something I'm missing that I would want to reconsider before not renewing BS3?

 

[day_trippr]

If your favorite provides an inventory tool that works with the recipe builder I'd say go with it. That's one of my particular likes wrt BS2 and then BS3. The one thing I wish Brad would do is allow pushing an inventory list to the Cloud but I export to a spreadsheet format and push that to my Google Drive so if I happen to be passing by a shop I can pull it to my phone.

I don't use the BS3 Water tool either, favoring Bru'n Water for many years. It works well enough that I don't have the urge to devote brain cycles to learn an alternative

Cheers!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I've used BS2 and BS3 for a few years having switched, needing a replacement, for ProMash. I've run into a strange problem with BS3 where the inventory is wrong. Shows I have a certain amount of something, when in reality, I've never had this item. Or, valid inventory item amounts are mysteriously off. Neither Brad nor I can determine the cause. No, not caused by drinking homebrew nor caused by failing to update inventory.

I do know, based on my experience, BS relies heavily on the equipment profile and mash profile. If one wants to simply use BS for recipe formulation then the results may well be off without the correct equipment profile and mash profile.

 

[day_trippr]

Absolutely true, BS runs on profiles, and if an equipment profile is well off from reality the user is going to have a bad time.
Otoh - and the learning curve was a steep pita for me - a well-tuned equipment profile is a wonderful thing. Suddenly everything comes out as designed - eureka!

Aside from the lack of Cloud support, my only functional problem with BS inventory is forgetting to commit a brew's ingredients usage and that there's no flag that indicates if a brew day's material needs were deleted or not.

Wait - I just remembered a major ***** I have with BS3: it has no mechanism to account for wort loss due to hop absorption.
This boggles me. A BS recipe knows how much and what style of hops I'm using at each step, and there are industry standard absorption rates that could be used as defaults (for unbagged pellets ~5 ounces per ounce).

For a recipe that uses 12 ounces of pellets that's a half gallon of beer totally unaccounted...

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

All good points. The learning curve with BS took awhile but once my equipment profile was dialed in, it gave me consistent results both with BS2 and BS3.

@Tobor_8thMan, funny you mention about the problem you were having with the inventory. I thought it was me as my inventory usage was always off. I had thought maybe I had forgotten to indicate for the items to be subtracted from the inventory. Before I entered inventory into Brewfather, I counted and weighed everything and found weird amounts on items as well. Maybe it was user error.....

I'v dialed in the equipment profile on Brewfather. The nice thing with Brewfather is since it is in the cloud already, you can look up any inventory items you need while at your LHBS or shopping. As mentioned, I really like the interface and Tilt intregation. If BS3 was more like Brewfather, I probably would stay with it.....but it's not.

@day_trippr, thanks for the tip on the hops absorption ~ 5oz per 1oz of hops used.

 

[Oginme]

Any modeling software worth its weight will need to have an accurate description of the process and process variables. BeerSmith is not alone in this. I have trialed BrewFather and Brewer's Friend and am sticking with BeerSmith. Every program has its weak points and faults, it all depends on which ones you can live with.

I will totally agree that the inventory and issue with cloud storage are an issue with BeerSmith. I track inventory separately due to that particular weakness in the program. I find the mash pH prediction, once you take into account the overestimation of buffering in Mark Riffe's model that BS uses, to be as accurate as Bru'n water so have not had any issues with that function.

Tracking trub loss versus hop loading for over 110 recipes brewed, I have found no reliable correlation (r2 = 0.0182) between hop loading in boil and whirlpool (all pellets) and trub loss. Maybe it is just the way I had operated my process, but in switching to the Anvil and using a hop basket (versus just free additions previously, I am still at very low volume losses versus hop loading. I should probably start tracking this as well though to see what that relationship actually is though.

I am pretty active on the BeerSmith forum helping others with using the program (full disclosure), but I also recognize that some of the issues people have with BeerSmith are better handled with other options such as BrewFather and Brewer's Friend. If those programs meet your needs, by all means use them. Everyone has different wants and needs from modeling software. The basic calculations are pretty much the same from one program to another, even if they handle the user inputs for process variables differently, so it comes down to what you find easier to use or the features you want.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Do wish I could find equipment profile for published recipes (example BYO, et al) instead of having to create the profile, enter the published recipe then convert the recipe for my equipment profile and mash profile.

 

[Dland]

BS 2 works well for me, but all I use it for anymore really is to check mash water amount & temp if I'm brewing a different size batch than usual. It also works as back up recipe/brew log if my paper log is in other building. It was very helpful for me at re start of brewing hobby with volumes and estimated IBUs and the like, but most of that is in my head now.

I got to ask though, why is inventory so important, can't you see what you have? And why would one want to put their info in the "cloud, aka "server farms" you have no control of?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I have a lot of inventory. PITA calculating a recipe, believing the inventory only to discover on brew day the inventory is wrong.

I only use local everything including BS. I don't trust the cloud.

 

[CodeSection]

....I got to ask though, why is inventory so important, can't you see what you have? And why would one want to put their info in the "cloud, aka "server farms" you have no control of?

For me, it is a convenience factor that I can access my data via my computer or iPhone regardless if I am home or not. When I'm at my LHBS to buy ingredients or when I receive an email about a sale, I just access the inventory in the cloud. I do not have to carry a paper inventory listing with me. Nor do I have to go home to see what inventory I have.

It is convenient for me to have a program keep an accurate track of my inventory so as I am not continually looking/recounting or using a paper log on every item to determine when I need to buy more. If the internet access is down at my home, I have two other providers at my office and with my iPhone.

With that said, you make a good point about cloud control. I'm guessing the control concern would be related to the possibility of the server down time or possibility of data loss. That is why I export all the recipes from Brewfather to a recipe folder and import to BS2 (used to import to BS3) on my computer. Furthermore, my computer backups daily with idrive.com. (yes, that's in the cloud too). I backup BS2 program as well as its data files along with my recipe files. When it comes to recipes, I also print them out and have them in a folder.

 

[Dland]

I guess the "cloud" might be nice if your going to design your beers while on the commuter train or something. From what I understand it is not all that secure, and files can get lost, and file storage companies do get hacked, they just don't like to advertise it.

My computers are networked together and back each other up, hard wired, and have additional separate hard drive they also back up to. I can't take credit for it though, a tech friend I hire for my business set it up for me, I would not have known where to start.

BS 2 was installed from a disc I bought, but I think I can update from the "cloud" last I checked(a while ago). Only problem I've found still using old BS 2 is recently introduced ingredients are not on the lists there, but there are always some close enough to estimate yield outcome and the like.

Once I almost ran out of Whirlflock, so now I get a few packs at a time, always have plenty of grain, yeast and hops, it makes me feel better... {; (along with other critical supplies like food & fuel)(call me a prepper, but I do live on an island). Running out is never a problem if you always have plenty in stock.

If my brew recipe selection is sometimes driven by stock rotation considerations, so be it, it helps keep me out of a rut. On a side note, one good way to be sure you try new ingredients is to order them when you're drinking.

 

[Oginme]

Do wish I could find equipment profile for published recipes (example BYO, et al) instead of having to create the profile, enter the published recipe then convert the recipe for my equipment profile and mash profile.

OK, quick tip to help with this in BeerSmith:

Open up your template with your equipment profile. Now add the ingredients as they appear in the recipe. If they give percentages, that makes it really easy, just add the ingredients and click on the 'grain pct' button on the far right to enter in the percentage of each ingredient.

If you have just the amount of each ingredient, enter each ingredient as that amount printed in the recipe. Do the same with the hop additions making changes for the % AA of each hop as you go to match the recipe. If the program gives you an IBU contribution for each hop addition, you don't need to make this adjustment, just enter in the hops as you have them in inventory.

Now use the sliders below the ingredient box to adjust the OG, IBU and then color to match the specifications of the recipe. You are now 90% of the way there without having to worry about the efficiency of the original recipe.

For clean up, you will need to adjust dry hop or zero IBU hop additions manually if you are changing batch sizes versus the original recipe. You will also want to change the hops to the %AA of the hop lots you have on hand, and you can do this by using 'substitute', switching to the hops you have in your inventory and then adjusting the IBU of each hop addition using the 'hop IBU' button on the far right to set each addition to where it was with the %AA from the recipe.

 

[CodeSection]

I guess the "cloud" might be nice if your going to design your beers while on the commuter train or something. From what I understand it is not all that secure, and files can get lost, and file storage companies do get hacked, they just don't like to advertise it.

My computers are networked together and back each other up, hard wired, and have additional separate hard drive they also back up to. I can't take credit for it though, a tech friend I hire for my business set it up for me, I would not have known where to start.....

For me and depending upon my schedule, I often have time during my workday to work on a recipe or to order supplies. I suspect Brewfather's servers probably do not encrypt the data. But I'm not worried about someone getting and reading my recipes.

All my computers at the office as well at home have hard disk encryption on them. Years ago prior to Windows 10, we had disk encryption using a third party software. Also, years ago we used network appliances to cross backup to between offices similar to what you are doing now. Back then, those network appliances could not have whole disks encryption. I was always fearful of a breakin and someone just picking the appliance up and taking it.

Our backup service, idrive.com, has two different passwords. The first is to be able to login and the second is a key of sorts to unluck the encryption.

https://www.idrive.com/online-backup-security

Everything is encrypted when it is backing up so even if data was stolen or intercepted, it could not be read. It is HIPPA, Sarbanes-Oxley, Gramm-Leach-Bliley, and SEC/FINRA compliant.

https://www.idrive.com/online-backup-compliance

If there was an internet disruption, then obviously any backup or restoration would be affected. I see that a network appliance on Costco now has encryption which will protect sensitive data. That would be a local solution and would protect against any internet down time.

Both cloud and local backup combination is probably the best solution. If there was a fire or theft, one would have the backup that was in the cloud to be able to restore programs and data. If the internet went down, one could use the local network appliance to restore programs and files.

When I used network appliances we had three of them at different locations and continued to cross backup. But again, that was years ago and at that time they only had a password protection with no encryption available. I might look into them again.

https://www.costco.com/western-digi...rt-portable-hdd-bundle.product.100475919.html

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I got to ask though, why is inventory so important, can't you see what you have? And why would one want to put their info in the "cloud, aka "server farms" you have no control of?

I'm sorry - did I stutter?

[...]The one thing I wish Brad would do is allow pushing an inventory list to the Cloud but I export to a spreadsheet format and push that to my Google Drive so if I happen to be passing by a shop I can pull it to my phone.[...]

Cheers!

 

[Dland]

I'm sorry - did I stutter?



Cheers!

Geeze, & I never suspected, ...are you part of the cloud?

Seriously kids, there is a splendid full moon tonight, some clouds here too,...check it out & enjoy if you can, and please be careful.

 

[McKnuckle]

I've had runs with BS and Brewer's Friend, but eventually developed my own spreadsheet tools tailored to how my mind works. I've been trying out Brewfather lately, and its UI is really nice. I love the fermentation tracker, batch log, cloud access from any device, and lots of other things.

Brewfather does two things that bug me: First, its insistence on stating pre- and post-boil volumes with an assumed 4% heat expansion factor - instead of simply normalizing all water volumes to room temp for consistency in tracking water additions/losses. This forces a needless calculation adjustment to keep my own numbers in line with Brewfather.

Second, and more annoying, is its efficiency calculation method, which dramatically understates the mash efficiency percentage for a given OG. Or put another way, it overstates OG for a given mash efficiency estimation. I am a disciple of the Braukaiser and doug293cz efficiency algorithm, which I have incorporated into my own tools. The discrepancy is 6-10 points, so it's not trivial.

Still, it's the first software that's tempted me to stray from the DIY side, or at least to augment it, so I paid for a year of usage.

 

[murphyslaw]

I really value sticking with one program and have used BS for years. But my eye has been wandering lately. I just don't want to be tied to a laptop/desktop for full functionality. Other than my work computer, I use my personal laptop for BS and......well, just BS.

 

[McKnuckle]

Brewfather is identical and fully functional on laptops, desktops, and smartphones. It's browser-based so the UI is consistent, just scaled/sized appropriately for each device.

 

[CodeSection]

I really value sticking with one program and have used BS for years. But my eye has been wandering lately. I just don't want to be tied to a laptop/desktop for full functionality. Other than my work computer, I use my personal laptop for BS and......well, just BS.

Check out Brewfather https://brewfather.app/

 

[225]

I have tried all the programs, Beertools Pro, Beersmith 3, Brewers Friend. And by far Brewfather is the easiest.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I have tried all the programs, Beertools Pro, Beersmith 3, Brewers Friend. And by far Brewfather is the easiest.

I realize "And by far Brewfather is the easiest." is subjective. Why? In your opinion pros/cons of BS vs BF?

 

[225]

I realize "And by far Brewfather is the easiest." is subjective. Why? In your opinion pros/cons of BS vs BF?

I found it was easier to scale up recipes from 5 gallon to 12 gallon batches. And also, it automatically adds your water profile for making adjustments.

With beersmith, you have to go through all kinds of menus, with brewfather, its all just one click away.

The only thing I don't like is you can't view someone's profile to look at their public recipes.

 

[kevin58]

I found it was easier to scale up recipes from 5 gallon to 12 gallon batches. And also, it automatically adds your water profile for making adjustments.

With beersmith, you have to go through all kinds of menus, with brewfather, its all just one click away.

The only thing I don't like is you can't view someone's profile to look at their public recipes.

If you want to scale a recipe in Beersmith its just a click on the "Scale Recipe" button. To add your water its another click on the water tab - select your base water - select your target profile and all your water additions are added to the recipe. Not a whole lot of effort there.

 

[thunderwagn]

For the first time in years, I'm not renewing my Brewersfriend subscription. I still have BS, but never use it. I've been using Brewfather exclusively for months now, and after a few bumps and hiccups, I have found it works great for me and my brewing set-up. After so many updates and problems with Brewerfriend over the past year or so, I finally just gave up on it entirely.
I know $25 a yr isn't a ton of money, but it is the most expensive compared to the others, and when comparing it to Brewfather, I can't justify the price tag any longer.

 

[CodeSection]

For the first time in years, I'm not renewing my Brewersfriend subscription. I still have BS, but never use it. I've been using Brewfather exclusively for months now, and after a few bumps and hiccups, I have found it works great for me and my brewing set-up. After so many updates and problems with Brewerfriend over the past year or so, I finally just gave up on it entirely.
I know $25 a yr isn't a ton of money, but it is the most expensive compared to the others, and when comparing it to Brewfather, I can't justify the price tag any longer.

I came to the same conclusion. I did not renew Brewersfriend as well as BS3 and have been using Brewfather exclusively for several months. While I do have BS2, I have not used it in years and it will only be a backup if needed.

 

[brew703]

I'm thinking of doing the same. I have BS2, BS3 and rarely use them. Never really was a big fan so not sure why I even purchased BS3.
I also use Brewer's Friend, which is the one I've used since I started brewing and I am reluctant to not renew. I have been contemplating using Brewfather. I have the free version, just haven't upgraded yet.

 

[Big Monk]

I've always been an advocate of using custom spreadsheets. It guarantees you get the exact stuff you need for your brewery.

One of the things that happens with software aimed at ALL homebrewers is it never has EXACTLY what each homebrewer wants or needs. You get a bunch of extra stuff in there to please EVERYONE.

It's a double-edged sword. You simultaneously bless and curse the creators for both existing and doing so so generically.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Not trying to get off topic, but biggest problem I've had with BS is losing inventory or mysteriously gaining inventory. No, not drunk ole me making an error as others have reported the same to me. I've even notified Brad about this mystery. Nothing worse, at least to me, when getting ready to brew and discovering the BS inventory is off and I don't have, or am short, the needed item(s).

Not sure if this is a BS2 or BS3 problem, but it happens.