New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[marchuk96]

Extract is definitely a great stepping stone to all grain which I'm assuming is your goal eventually...you can make great beer with extract and some may say with the right process as good as all grain...as far as secondary goes...if you have already done it that's fine...it is not a bad practice but not really necessary and potentially risky....depending on how you are getting the liquid to secondary and what you are using you run some risk with o2 pickup and oxidation...if you can do it as a closed transfer then that's great but if its going from fermentor a) to fermentor b) the chance for degration increases...

I usually do 2 dry hops...after ferment is complete...I'll do one at day 7/8...another one day 9 both at room temp... Then cold crash and keg day 11...I've done this for most of ipas and gotten great results...great out of the bag nose...my dry hop is usually around 5-6 ounces...best of luck!! [emoji482]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

 

[beervoid]

With a low temp whirlpool, you have all the chemical matter needed for biotransformation. Why this isn’t discussed or studied more is beyond me.



Plus you get the mouthfeel boost from the Na to boot!

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

 

[DrGMG]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

 

[Dgallo]

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

Would also be interested in some facts about this...
I have gone 80-90ish Na with 180 SO4 with seemingly no issues...

 

[Dgallo]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

But the wh extracts compounds that can’t be extracted at Dh temps. You need to look up the interview with Industrial arts brewing regarding whirlpool and hop back temps. Really interesting

 

[marchuk96]

Even at lower temperatures at whirlpool, a lot of volatility still remains. It does not compare to dry hopping in that regard.

Yeah there could be some volatility...but that's not the question at hand...going into the start of ferment most of us are loaded with hop oils and compounds in our wort..even with volatility ive had plenty of beers smell and taste like they were good to go after ferment is done and prior to dry hopping at all..its these oils and compounds I'm speaking about and question if they go threw bio and then does reintroducing more via dry hop make this process happen again...can yeast do anything with this new introduction assuming they have potentially already bio transformed the existing oils and compounds present...maybe all this time bio is actually only happening from what was present and not from the new introduction? [emoji482]

 

[SRJHops]

I'm getting ready to dry hop some mosaic in a couple of days. It'll be 4 days after racking into the secondary. My plan is to cold crash for 4 days before kegging. The question is how long to dry hop? 6 days, 4 days, 9 days. I have heard different things.

I brew using an extract kit. I used spring water. I don't keep track of my water composition. So I am pretty new to this. I just looking for some basic rule of thumb.

Sorry to say, but you should not transfer to secondary for this style especially - odds are you are going to get a dark oxidized beer. Got to avoid oxygen exposure at all costs.

Many folks who add a final dry hop are doing it for 2-3 days or so.

If you can cold crash a day or two that is fine, but not really necessary in my opinion. Maybe a soft crash to 60 for the final dry hop, but still somewhat optional..

 

[DrGMG]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every yeast does bio and even then, not every hop has the ingredients for it either.

 

[couchsending]

The problem with sodium is conflicts with sulfates and creates a harshness so if used make sure those are low

I’ve read this as well but I’m not 100% sure I agree with it. I mean maybe at incredibly high levels I could see that. I usually don’t push Na over 60ppm as malt can add a decent amount on its own.

one of these days when I get my 1/2 bbl system up and running I want to split a batch three ways and keep one with no NaCl, one with elevated levels and one with KCL to really compare the difference.

 

[marchuk96]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every yeast does bio and even then, not every hop has the ingredients for it either.

Agreed that not all have that capability...but for the sake of discussion let's assume what you have used does???

 

[DrGMG]

Agreed that not all have that capability...but for the sake of discussion let's assume what you have used does???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[beervoid]

Do you have any literature on that? I’ve never experience harshness from the combination of 80ish Na and 125ish so4. Wondering what threshold would bring the harshness

Got it from this book.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

Also as @couchsending mentioned, malts contribute a considerable amount already and looking at finished beer mineral profiles I dont believe any brewers use it.
I opted to use potassium chloride instead as malts are very high in this already up in the 1000's so the few ppm shouldnt be noticable.

 

[aaronm13]

Could anyone post up their water profiles in ppm that they're really happy with that gives an amazing mouthfeel. My last few batches I've been using a Mike Tonsmeire profile which is

Calcium: 150ppm
Chloride: 150ppm
Sulfate: 150ppm
Others salts have been kinda low
Sodium: 13ppm
Magnesium: 5ppm
Bicarbonate: 16ppm

I'm happy enough with this profile but reckon there is definitely room for improvement. I like the idea of increased sodium levels as a brewer from Cloudwater told a friend of mine that they use table salt to increase mouthfeel but i never knew how much to add and wasn't comfortable going very high hence my pretty low level.

 

[DrGMG]

I use this from Brulosophy and it works very well.

Water Profile: Ca 117 | Mg 3 | Na 10 | SO4 84 | Cl 168

 

[isomerization]

Got it from this book.
http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

Also as @couchsending mentioned, malts contribute a considerable amount already and looking at finished beer mineral profiles I dont believe any brewers use it.
I opted to use potassium chloride instead as malts are very high in this already up in the 1000's so the few ppm shouldnt be noticable.

From your link:
“Sodium has no chemical effect; it contributes to the perceived flavor of beer by enhancing its sweetness. Levels from 75 to 150 ppm give a round smoothness and accentuate sweetness, which is most pleasant paired with chloride ions than when associated with sulfate ions. In the presence of sulfate, sodium creates an unpleasant harshness, so the rule of thumb is that the more sulfate in the water, the less sodium there should be (and vice versa).”

Seems like they are talking about much higher levels than we are.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-1.012 fg, 8% abv

 

[DrGMG]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-8%

View attachment 664894

I love Conan.

 

[SRJHops]

Happy superbowl sunday hopheads.
I just tapped this hazy brew for my guests to enjoy, and was quite pleased with the results .
Cheers! and lets go 9ers!

-Pilsner with a dash of Munich, malted oat, flaked oat and carafoam
-200ppm chloride, 75ppm sulfate
-Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, Idaho 7 and Simcoe cryo
-Giga Vermont IPA (conan)
-1.012 fg, 8% abv

View attachment 664894

Nice! 'Cept for the 9ers part of course. Go Chiefs!

 

[beervoid]

From your link:
“Sodium has no chemical effect; it contributes to the perceived flavor of beer by enhancing its sweetness. Levels from 75 to 150 ppm give a round smoothness and accentuate sweetness, which is most pleasant paired with chloride ions than when associated with sulfate ions. In the presence of sulfate, sodium creates an unpleasant harshness, so the rule of thumb is that the more sulfate in the water, the less sodium there should be (and vice versa).”

Seems like they are talking about much higher levels than we are.

Probably for most yeah. Any people here liking high sulfate in their neipa?
I really like the effect myself to give it another character. It doesnt necessarily transform it towards a westcoast ipa imho.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Probably for most yeah. Any people here liking high sulfate in their neipa?
I really like the effect myself to give it another character. It doesnt necessarily transform it towards a westcoast ipa imho.

What do you mean with high sulfate in this NEIPA context? More like 150ish or north of 200?

 

[beervoid]

What do you mean with high sulfate in this NEIPA context? More like 150ish or north of 200?

Yes 150 to 200 or so

 

[Genuine]

I've kept my Sulfate in the 50ppm range however I've been thinking of doing closer to 75-100ppm

 

[beervoid]

I've kept my Sulfate in the 50ppm range however I've been thinking of doing closer to 75-100ppm

When using high"er" chloride.
Above 100 is where I started noticing differences

 

[mjjunior10]

Are you guys dividing the minerals? using part of the salts in the mash and the other part into boil? By convenience I frequently adjust (ph and salts) whole strike water... but I do think that I can get a diference (for better) in my beers when I use partial additions.

 

[jturman35]

I can tell a difference in roundness when I go north of 150ppm cholride. I haven’t gone as high as 200ppm yet. I’m still trying to figure out where to put my sulfate, I usually keep sulfate around 80-125ppm.

 

[tld6008]

Deleted

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Are you guys dividing the minerals? using part of the salts in the mash and the other part into boil? By convenience I frequently adjust (ph and salts) whole strike water... but I do think that I can get a diference (for better) in my beers when I use partial additions.

Yes, I use beersmith to partition the salts into mash and boil additions. But currently I add the mash salts in the middle of doughing in and I don’t adjust ph until about 5-10minutes after complete dough in. so I don’t treat Ph on the mash water prior to dough in because I don’t yet trust the beersmith lactic acid recommended additions. I’ve only brewed three beers total, on first brew I forgot to add mash salts (despite having them measured and ready on my brew table lol) and when I tested the Ph after mashing in it was about 5.5-5.6 ish (don’t have exact notes in front of me). So I added lactic acid to adjust to get it under 5.4. Last two brews I did, when I added mash salts as I described here, when I tested Ph, the Ph was under 5.4 (more around 5.30-5.35ish) so no lactic acid adjustments were needed

 

[mjjunior10]

Yes, I use beersmith to partition the salts into mash and boil additions. But currently I add the mash salts in the middle of doughing in and I don’t adjust ph until about 5-10minutes after complete dough in. so I don’t treat Ph on the mash water prior to dough in because I don’t yet trust the beersmith lactic acid recommended additions. I’ve only brewed three beers total, on first brew I forgot to add mash salts (despite having them measured and ready on my brew table lol) and when I tested the Ph after mashing in it was about 5.5-5.6 ish (don’t have exact notes in front of me). So I added lactic acid to adjust to get it under 5.4. Last two brews I did, when I added mash salts as I described here, when I tested Ph, the Ph was under 5.4 (more around 5.30-5.35ish) so no lactic acid adjustments were needed

I down ph water to around 5 and also add all salts. If necessary I will add more acid to the mash.

 

[brew703]

I read somewhere that Treehouse uses the following:
Ca 15 / Mg 25 / Na 75 / CI 120 / So4 140

I have not tried this yet but may do so on my next NEIPA brew.

 

[tld6008]

I read somewhere that Treehouse uses the following:
Ca 15 / Mg 25 / Na 75 / CI 120 / So4 140

I have not tried this yet but may do so on my next NEIPA brew.

Getting to 15 on Ca will be difficult

 

[Dgallo]

I read somewhere that Treehouse uses the following:
Ca 15 / Mg 25 / Na 75 / CI 120 / So4 140

I have not tried this yet but may do so on my next NEIPA brew.

Can’t imagine that’s true. I do believe that they don’t follow the 2:1 ratio that some folks think is gospel. It’s hard to imagine they only adjusting with gypsum and table salt, which would be the only possibility to hit those numbers.

 

[SRJHops]

I read somewhere that Treehouse uses the following:
Ca 15 / Mg 25 / Na 75 / CI 120 / So4 140

I have not tried this yet but may do so on my next NEIPA brew.

For those who have tried their beers, does this ring true for the mouthfeel? Certainly there is no need for a soft mouthfeel, but in my personal brewing experience, that ratio is not likely to result in a soft mouthfeel. I am drinking my latest as I type, which I upped to 3:1 (159 CL, 52 So4) and I am finally starting to get some real softness... I am going to try 4:1 for my next brew, though I think 3:1 is going to be the winner.

 

[marchuk96]

I use this from Brulosophy and it works very well.

Water Profile: Ca 117 | Mg 3 | Na 10 | SO4 84 | Cl 168

I am also pretty close to what @DrGMG is using...here is mine..

Water Profile: Ca 117/ Mg 8/ Na 0/ So4 105/ CL 152

I have used this on almost all my NEIPA with great results...I do an addition in mash water and then another in sparge water...I actually stumbled across an article that stated that a local brewery near me (Sloop).....who produces some great NEIPA was using .5 grams/gal. of Gypsum and .9g/gal. of calcium chloride ratio...so I did exactly that and it gives you the numbers you see above with my grain bill for a 5.5 gallon batch minus the magnesium which is from Epsom salt...I haven't really strayed from this since I read it and as I said it has really worked well for me...id highly reccomend trying it and for me personally i don't see any reason to change it cause if it ain't broke...don't fix it[emoji482]

 

[DrGMG]

Preach! Kegging this beauty right now.

 

[jturman35]

I haven’t used canning salt yet to increase sodium. Do you guys feel staying under 60ppm Na really helps for this style?

 

[z-bob]

Another thing to keep in mind is that not every yeast does bio and even then, not every hop has the ingredients for it either.

What are some yeasts (besides Conan) that do? I've never paid much attention to this style of beer, but I have over 20 years worth of hops in my freezer right now for the types of beers I usually brew; I need to do something different to use some up. I have a pound of Centennial and half pound of Columbus hops (and lots of others) and I'm pretty sure those 2 are both very good ones for biotransformation.

What about Bell's yeast? Or Voss Kveik?

 

[DrGMG]

What are some yeasts (besides Conan) that do? I've never paid much attention to this style of beer, but I have over 20 years worth of hops in my freezer right now for the types of beers I usually brew; I need to do something different to use some up. I have a pound of Centennial and half pound of Columbus hops (and lots of others) and I'm pretty sure those 2 are both very good ones for biotransformation.

What about Bell's yeast? Or Voss Kveik?

The only one I know for sure is 1318 and citra.

 

[Dgallo]

I haven’t used canning salt yet to increase sodium. Do you guys feel staying under 60ppm Na really helps for this style?

You can push it to 80 easily without negative result.

I have decent tap water for brewing and I adjust to Ca:103 Mg:14 Na:76 Cl:152 So4:105. This is what I’m the most happy with.

A lot more goes into mouthfeel then just water profile. Hops used and oil content, yeast strain, carb level, mash temp, quality of wort making it into the fermented, grain Billl, and final gravity. I personally think water profile is more fine tuning where the other have a much bigger overall impact on it

 

[marchuk96]

What are some yeasts (besides Conan) that do? I've never paid much attention to this style of beer, but I have over 20 years worth of hops in my freezer right now for the types of beers I usually brew; I need to do something different to use some up. I have a pound of Centennial and half pound of Columbus hops (and lots of others) and I'm pretty sure those 2 are both very good ones for biotransformation.

What about Bell's yeast? Or Voss Kveik?

Here are 3 from Lallemand...Bry-97/Belle Saison/New England...and then a yeast comparison chart which could potentially mean that the sub's for the Lallemand yeasts could also be able to bio transform...this is assuming they are essentialy the same yeast just a different brand and Im going off of pure speculation...


https://brewstock.com/charts-and-tools/beer-yeast-comparison-chart/