No flavor in second brew

[Trabi]

I would like some help understanding why my second brew of the same recipe has no bitterness and very little flavor. Sadly, I do not have any gravity readings for either brew.

I brewed the Centennial Blonde from BierMuncher as my first all-grain brew and it came out great. Just before the bitterness became a noticeable distraction, the flowery/citrus flavor would kick in and leave a pleasant "I want more of that" taste when drinking.

I repeated the recipe but the results were very different. Now there is zero bitterness, but I would not say the beer is too sweet. So that is an ok result. But worse for me, there is very little actual flavor. There is only a hint of what could be the pleasant flowery/citrus flavor that was quite nice in the first brew.

I assume the lack of bitterness could be from the yeast not converting enough sugar into alcohol. I can live with a beer that is not bitter but not too sweet. I am mainly putting this description in to give you more info on the differences between the beers.

My main question is what could be the cause of the lack of flavor?

My process was basically the same, with the following differences.
First brew:
- Newly opened vacuum packed hops
- Last addition of Cascade hops was at 10 mins (not 5 minutes as specified in the recipe)
Second brew:
- Hops from the same packages, but stored in a zip lock baggy for one month in the freezer
- Last addition of Cascade hops at 5 minutes

Fermentation is done in my laundry room which fluctuates between 19 and 21 degrees Celsius (66 and 70 F).

What would the lack of flavor most likely be due to?
- variable fermentation temperatures
- older hops
- 5 minute difference in boil addition time
- something I've not tracked? (gravity, etc)
- something unknowable?

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated to this very new brewer.

 

[Beholder]

The big stand out to me is the hops storage. Oxygen breaks down alpha acids, so would explain the lack of bitterness and flavor from the hops.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/storing_hops_properly

Pick a vacuum sealer if you order more hops than in a single use. I use mason jars vacuumed with an attachment and stored in the freezer, works the trick...

 

[mongoose33]

When was your first hop addition?

Were there different hops? Some hops are "bittering" hops whose use is primarily at the beginning of the boil (60 mins), others more associated with flavor and aroma and added toward the end (as you did with your presumed Cascade).

Were there different hops? When did you add all of them to the boil? Were they mixed together in the baggie (which might have meant the bittering hops went in late and didn't add much bittering)?

The primarily character in hops that produces bitterness is "alpha acids." These are isomerized during the boil turning them into bittering compounds responsible for that character of the beer.

Some hops have a lot, some not so much. It depends on various factors as to how much bittering you get, but longer boil times means more bittering for hops added early, higher levels of alpha acids = more bittering, lower levels of gravity mean higher utilization of alpha acids (though in your case that would not matter).

I'm more interested in your "there's no flavor" descriptor. There should be flavor, not just bitterness.

More details of what you included and when would help.

 

[Trabi]

More details of what you included and when would help.

Sorry, I thought the Centennial Blonde was famous (known by everyone). https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/centennial-blonde-simple-4-all-grain-5-10-gall.42841/

I followed the recipe with the exceptions noted in my original post:
0.50 oz Centennial [9.50%] (55 min)
0.50 oz Centennial [9.50%] (35 min)
0.50 oz Cascade [7.80%] (20 min)
0.50 oz Cascade [7.80%] (5 min)

The hops were stored in separate zip lock baggies in the freezer.

 

[Trabi]

The big stand out to me is the hops storage. Oxygen breaks down alpha acids, so would explain the lack of bitterness and flavor from the hops.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/storing_hops_properly

Pick a vacuum sealer if you order more hops than in a single use. I use mason jars vacuumed with an attachment and stored in the freezer, works the trick...

Thank you for this suggestion, I will look into vacuum sealing.

 

[Pappers_]

The flavors you are describing are typically hop flavors (flowery, citrus), and the bitterness is also derived from hops. If you think both of those (hop flavor and hop bitterness) are lacking, increasing your hops or changing the hop varieties might be an interesting experiment for you.

As to what has changed between the two beers, I wouldn't discount other non-brewing factors that impact our perceptions of flavors and enjoyment of beer - carbonation level, our palate changes, the difference in your attitude between your first and second batches, etc. If you really want to dig into it, compare a bottle from the first batch and the second batch by giving them to an experienced beer judge for feedback.

I would not expect significant bitterness in this recipe - according to Biermuncher, the predicted IBUs are only 21, which is not bitter and on his balance chart he has this as 'balanced' - so not bitter.

As for the hop flavor, I would expect to get some hop flavor from the 20 minute addition and more from the five minute addition, but that is only a total of one ounce of hops in those two additions. If you're looking for big hop flavor, that won't give it to you.

Are you moving onto another style for your third batch or going to give this another go?

 

[kh54s10]

I think it is a combination of things contributing and you will probably never figure out what was the main culprit.

I see nothing about mash temperatures or length.
Sparge method.
Any grain difference?
No OG doesn't help with troubleshooting
Did one ferment at the 66 and the other at the 70 room temperatures?
IMO the hops were not old enough to cause all of the problem.
Timing of the last hop addition would be hardly noticeable.

Good luck, the only thing I can say is try again.

 

[Trabi]

Are you moving onto another style for your third batch or going to give this another go?

I had ordered enough ingredients for three batches and made the third one yesterday. So I will have another batch to compare in about 10 days.

 

[Trabi]

I think it is a combination of things contributing and you will probably never figure out what was the main culprit.

I see nothing about mash temperatures or length.
Sparge method.
Any grain difference?
Did one ferment at the 66 and the other at the 70 room temperatures?

Good luck, the only thing I can say is try again.

My process was the same for both batches. I followed the recipe to the letter, except for what is noted in my original post.

For the fermentation temperatures, the room fluctuates between 66 and 70 during the day/night. So both batches would have seen the whole range. But I have no data for actually how long each batch was at each temperature. I do not have any temperature control on my fermentation tank.

I will keep trying though, brewing beer is a lot of fun so far.

 

[dwhite60]

Are you sure you weighed the hops correctly?

One month in the freezer isn't going to kill your hops. This year I've made a number of batches with three year old Centennial that have been kept in the freezer.

Oxidation will kill hop flavor and aroma pretty quick. How did you bottle?

All the Best,
D. White

 

[HB_ATL73]

I'm more interested in your "there's no flavor" descripto

Am also interested in this.

I do not have any gravity readings for either brew

This is certainly something that will help you here. Attenuation will have a huge impact on the final beer

Hops from the same packages, but stored in a zip lock baggy for one month in the freezer

This is fine. One month in the freezer you will have negligible losses in AA%. As another suggested you can vacuum seal and put in freezer for best storage

 

[RM-MN]

My process was the same for both batches. I followed the recipe to the letter, except for what is noted in my original post.

For the fermentation temperatures, the room fluctuates between 66 and 70 during the day/night. So both batches would have seen the whole range. But I have no data for actually how long each batch was at each temperature. I do not have any temperature control on my fermentation tank.

I will keep trying though, brewing beer is a lot of fun so far.

Fermentation temperature control was the single best improvement to my beers.

 

[Trabi]

Are you sure you weighed the hops correctly?

One month in the freezer isn't going to kill your hops. This year I've made a number of batches with three year old Centennial that have been kept in the freezer.

Oxidation will kill hop flavor and aroma pretty quick. How did you bottle?

All the Best,
D. White

Yes, I am sure the hops were within one gram of being the same for each addition.

I transfer from my plastic fermenter to a keg. I fill the keg with CO2, then drop a silicon tube into the top of the open keg. Some normal air will get into the top of the fermenter as the beer flows to the keg. Then I seal the keg and purge again a few times.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I would think the most likely be hop storage keep them in the freezer vac packed or flushed with preserving gas (wine preservation gas). Is it possible that your water chemistry changed? I have “city water” and it is pretty good and consistent, but not everyone is that fortunate.