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Westwind7

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I’ve made a lot of wine in my time and cider too but I’ve never been much interested in brewing beer, but looking into this process I have to ask the dumb question, so here goes....
Why is it necessary to boil the wort for a whole hour if you’re using DME or LME? Thanks in advance for any input.
 
Why is it necessary to boil the wort for a whole hour if you’re using DME or LME? Thanks in advance for any input.

It's not necessary. 15-minute pale ale and Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" process (bring the wort to a boil, cut the heat and add the hops) are examples of extract+steep processes that don't require a hour long boil.

60 minute boils in extract+steep recipes is common - perhaps because it's easy to convert many all-grain base malts (Pilsen, "2 Row" brewers malt, Munich, Vienna, Pale Ale) to DME/LME without affecting the rest of the recipe "too much". Currently, 60 minute boils for all-grain recipes remains a common practice.
 
Extracts, DME or LME, actually don't have to be boiled at all. But we boil at least some of it for some time with hops to extract bitterness from them.

With extracts, it is NOT necessary to boil for an hour either.
You can reduce that to half an hour or even less, as long as you can obtain the bitterness (IBUs) from the hops your recipe calls for.
Hops' Alpha Acids (%AA) get isomerized during the boil (and in lesser degree at lower temps too, down to around 150F). Isomerized Alpha Acids give us the classic bitterness we associate with (modern day) beer.

For example, boiling 1 oz of a certain hop for 1 hour may give us 60 IBUs. If we boil that hop for half an hour we'd get only 46 IBUs. 15 minutes gives us 30 IBU. So boiling 2x the amount, 2 oz of that same hop for 15 minutes gives us the same 60 IBU.
 
It's not necessary. 15-minute pale ale and Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" process (bring the wort to a boil, cut the heat and add the hops) are examples of extract+steep processes that don't require a hour long boil.

60 minute boils in extract+steep recipes is common - perhaps because it's easy to convert many all-grain base malts (Pilsen, "2 Row" brewers malt, Munich, Vienna, Pale Ale) to DME/LME without affecting the rest of the recipe "too much". Currently, 60 minute boils for all-grain recipes remains a common practice.

Thank you very much for the info and also for your rapid response! Great info in the referenced article.
 
Why is it necessary to boil the wort for a whole hour if you’re using DME or LME?

Honestly it is a really good question. I have been an all-grain brewer for many years and I am not sure I know the reasons for 60-90 minute boils (volume reduction and hop bitterness are two...I hear about reduction of DMS but not sure that is real...others?). I see some extract process that have no-boil. It makes me cringe a little, but I am not sure why. Way back when I started I had short boils and often topped my batches with tap water.

There might be something interesting in the Brulosophy "Short & Shoddy" articles. I think they are all grain, but the idea for most of them is to reduce the mash and boil time (and fermentation in some cases) and still brew good beers: http://brulosophy.com/projects/short-shoddy/
 
Honestly it is a really good question. I have been an all-grain brewer for many years and I am not sure I know the reasons for 60-90 minute boils (volume reduction and hop bitterness are two...I hear about reduction of DMS but not sure that is real...others?). I see some extract process that have no-boil. It makes me cringe a little, but I am not sure why. Way back when I started I had short boils and often topped my batches with tap water.

There might be something interesting in the Brulosophy "Short & Shoddy" articles. I think they are all grain, but the idea for most of them is to reduce the mash and boil time (and fermentation in some cases) and still brew good beers: http://brulosophy.com/projects/short-shoddy/
Thank you very much. I sure like this forum and all the help I’ve received. Thank you all.
 
... now, as we slowly start drifting off :no: from the original topic ... :)

I see some extract process that have no-boil. It makes me cringe a little, but I am not sure why.

I've seen people mention their 'no-boil' extract process - when I look deeper (not often), I rarely see enough information to know exactly what they are doing. Personally, there are guidelines for safe food preparation and I'm not willing to ignore those guidelines to 'brew as fast as possible'.

... reasons for 60-90 minute boils ...

With the home brew kit and recipe mash / boil times, could it be that 1) the process step "always" finishes within 60 minutes, and 2) it's easy on an clock (analog or digital) to determine end times for each step?

For me, shorter mash / boil times can be useful. But it's not about "how fast can a brew?". "What can I brew in a two (or four) hour block of time?" is much more interesting.
 
For me, shorter mash / boil times can be useful. But it's not about "how fast can a brew?".

Also for me, cutting out the mash or boil time does not make much difference. I usually get my mash started, then fix coffee and breakfast and get other brew supplies ready. The boil is is also a relaxing time in the process. I enjoyed moving to BIAB because the sparge process was time consuming and required constant attention.

I could definitely see the appeal in a 15 or 20 minute boil extract batch where you combined your flavor and bitter hops into one addition.
 
I can recommend buying John Palmer's How to Brew, 4th Ed.

Looks like amazon (maybe others?) is deep discounting a couple of the BYO ebooks yesterday/today.

I find The Brew Your Own Big Book of Homebrewing to concise, informative, and easy to search. Granted, it's not as in-depth as How to Brew. But at $5 (or $3) for a one time purchase, it's currently a great substitution for the BYO web site. And the book pairs nicely with http://beerandwinejournal.com/ for more current material.
 
I think you guys skipped over my post in #3.

Extract doesn't need to get boiled, it has been boiled at the malster as wort, then was condensed. That's what extract is, condensed (LME) and then dried (DME) wort.

Although bringing extracts to pasteurization temps (~160-170F for 5-10 minutes) is often recommended, especially if bought from bulk, it is apparently not strictly required. May depend on the source too.

Pre-hopped extracts should never be boiled, dissolved in lukewarm water is best so not to change the little bit of hop flavor that's left, and make it more bitter.

So the main, perhaps only reason to boil (at least some) of the dissolved extract is to utilize hops.
 
Extract doesn't need to get boiled, it has been boiled at the malster as wort, then was condensed. That's what extract is, condensed (LME) and then dried (DME) wort.

There are a lot of respected people in the brewing/homebrew world that recommend boiling extract batches. I have not brewed an extract batch in a long time and I am not that knowledgeable about extract production (though I do know that to condense extract it is "boiled" under a vacuum at temps around 100F).

Below are some articles on the topic, though I did not find anything that focused on extract brewing.
https://blog.eckraus.com/boiling-a-wort
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/how_to_boil_wort
https://www.homebrewsupply.com/learn/60-90-otherwise-finding-best-boil-time.html

If possible, I would recommend people brew a batch of the same beer using both methods and taste them side by side. If not, then, based on what experts have said, I would shoot for a full volume boil of at least 15 minutes.
 
There are a lot of respected people in the brewing/homebrew world that recommend boiling extract batches. I have not brewed an extract batch in a long time and I am not that knowledgeable about extract production (though I do know that to condense extract it is "boiled" under a vacuum at temps around 100F).
It's difficult to change "common" knowledge, it rather propagates, which makes it even more commonly known and accepted. Even if it's wrong or incomplete.

There is no (more) DMS released when boiling malt extracts, at least in perceptible amounts, they must have been driven off earlier in the process at the maltsters. So that's not a valid reason to boil extracts.

The base of all malt extracts is all grain, mashed, lautered, and boiled for some time (to drive off DMS, and its precursor SMM), then condensed through vacuum evaporation over large surfaces at reduced temps to prevent or reduce further maillard and darkening reactions. Briess used to have a very informative page of that process on their website, but I haven't been able to find it lately.

In that light, as long as the DME powder has been packed and stored dry and correctly, it should be fairly sterile, similar to other sugar products.

Reboiling extracts upon use can assure re-pasteurization, while allowing more maillard reactions and wort darkening, which is desired for some beers, but not so for others. For most (beer) brewers, the boiling process allows them to introduce their hops to provide bittering, flavor, and aroma. Other things can be added there in addition to or instead of.

For most extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils and top up with cold water in the kettle or fermenter after the boil, adding only part of the extract (1/4 - 1/2) is recommended. Then add the balance of the extract at or after flame out, right before chilling, to re-pasteurize. This reduces kettle reactions while allowing for better hop utilization. A positive side effect of the split extract additions is that the resulting beer tends to taste better, fresher, and may have attenuated a bit more.
 
Putting all the science stuff aside, boiling for 60 minutes or longer gives me a chance to relax and drink a beer. 2 if I boil 90 min.

Brewing can be a lot of work. While extract is much less work than all grain, it's still work. Take a break and have a beer. It might be the only time it is acceptable to drink while taking a break from a job of work. So, take a break.

Just saying............
 
It's difficult to change "common" knowledge, it rather propagates, which makes it even more commonly known and accepted. Even if it's wrong or incomplete.

What general process do you recommend or follow? I am on the hook to organize some experiments for my homebrew club and I might be able to fit in some boil length trials...I will likely brew some extract beers to create some single hop beers or play around with yeasts.

It seems like most beers will need at least a 15-20 minute boil to get hop bitterness. I cannot imagine that there is much variety in pre-hopped extracts and throwing in a bunch of flame out/whirlpool hops would only work for hoppy beers.
 
What general process do you recommend or follow?
Not sure what you're looking for. Maybe you can be a bit more specific?

What I wrote above are methods used and recommendation made by several "advanced" extract brewers, those who have read, tried, and adapted their techniques and "reported back" on their finding through this Forum (and others). There are quite a few variations, none necessarily better than others.

I brewed extract with steeping grains for the first 4 years, mostly following How to Brew. I know I did a lot of things OK, the beer was very drinkable some even very good, but there were some important areas I was unaware of at the time. If I had only known HBT...
That was before I discovered HBT in 2013 (as well as a few other good sites and forums). I switched to all grain shortly after that. I only use extract now for yeast starters.
I am on the hook to organize some experiments for my homebrew club and I might be able to fit in some boil length trials...I will likely brew some extract beers to create some single hop beers or play around with yeasts.
That sounds like a nice project or presentation!
Perhaps you can get some independent (and uninfluenced) feedback and tally up some sort of stats, ala Brulosophers.

You can easily mash 5-10 gallons of wort and treat each gallon (or 3/4 gallon) with different hop and yeast techniques.
Or to save time, brew the whole batch with one bittering hop, chill, then finish each with a different hop or yeast experiment.

A few years ago 2 of our BJCP class members had dry hopped bottled Kolsch with different hop varieties. Strained out at pouring. It was a good experience and valuable lesson.

You could ferment each in gallon milk or water jugs. A regular drilled bung that fits growlers or gallon "wine" jugs fits those plastic jugs too. Or use their lids, aluminum foil, or plastic wrap during active fermentation, then cap, and vent if they swell up a little.
It seems like most beers will need at least a 15-20 minute boil to get hop bitterness. I cannot imagine that there is much variety in pre-hopped extracts and throwing in a bunch of flame out/whirlpool hops would only work for hoppy beers.
Sure, to get bitterness you need to boil hops or hop oil (hop shots) for that time. Many of today's IPAs rely heavily on late and whirlpool hop additions, it has become very fashionable, inspired by NEIPAs probably. There is also some retrograde occuring.

Prehopped extracts are pitiful. There's quite a bit wider choice now, from what I've seen being offered. But from what I've read, none even approach brews done with some real hops in the boil. They're still too awfully close to kit and kilo, but with some keen ingredient and process tweaks I think they can be much, much better. And won't take much longer to prepare either. Since they aren't boiled we can't really call them brewed now, can we?

There are several threads on non-boiled beer, but haven't looked at them that closely to have a formed opinion.
 
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What I wrote above are methods used and recommendation made by several "advanced" extract brewers, those who have read, tried, and adapted their techniques and "reported back" on their finding through this Forum (and others). There are quite a few variations, none necessarily better than others.

If you have links to topics in HBT for these reports, that would be interesting.
 
If you have links to topics in HBT for these reports, that would be interesting.
Yeah, it would be. And I wish I could.

But the information has been assimilated by myself and others, in an organic fashion, typical forum style. Keep the positive results and those that promise or have proven progress, and build on those; discard the negative results, errors, false tracks, wrong turns, etc. Revise as and where needed.

Meanwhile, we lost our OP:
Why is it necessary to boil the wort for a whole hour if you’re using DME or LME? Thanks in advance for any input.
I think I answered that, at least twice already.
 
For most extract brewers, especially those doing partial boils and top up with cold water in the kettle or fermenter after the boil, adding only part of the extract (1/4 - 1/2) is recommended. Then add the balance of the extract at or after flame out, right before chilling, to re-pasteurize. This reduces kettle reactions while allowing for better hop utilization. A positive side effect of the split extract additions is that the resulting beer tends to taste better, fresher, and may have attenuated a bit more.

But the information has been assimilated by myself and others, in an organic fashion, typical forum style. Keep the positive results and those that promise or have proven progress, and build on those; discard the negative results, errors, false tracks, wrong turns, etc. Revise as and where needed.

Many good extract+steep (or BAIB+extract / partial mash) recipes can be made by converting base malts to DME/LME and boiling for 60 minutes. Partial boil with late extract additions and top up water is a good process for those who brew on stove tops. How To Brew, 4e (2016, Palmer) and Methods of Modern Homebrewing (2017, Colby) are good sources of information on these processes - with details that are rarely seen in forum discussions.

What styles of beer can one make with a extract+steep process and a short boil?

15 Minute Pale Ale offers a process. Recipes are hard to come by, but for style variations, one hour extract brew could be a good source of inspiration. Mix in some Munich DME and Vienna DME (where appropriate).

Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" approach (and brulosophy) suggests that hops don't need to be boiled (for example, 212* F for 20 or 30 minutes) to extract bitterness. Granted, temperature control is easier if one "just boils" for 20 to 30 minutes (rather than letting the wort cool from 212 to 170 over 20 minutes).
 
Basic Brewing Radio's "Hop Sampler" approach (and brulosophy) suggests that hops don't need to be boiled (for example, 212* F for 20 or 30 minutes) to extract bitterness. Granted, temperature control is easier if one "just boils" for 20 to 30 minutes (rather than letting the wort cool from 212 to 170 over 20 minutes).
Of course! There is significant bittering (AA isomerization) taking place at temps far below boiling, definitely down to 150F, possibly even all the way down to 140F. IPAs, especially NEIPAs, float on that method. The last ones especially due to relatively huge hop additions at reduced temps during the whirlpool with extended contact times. 30-60 minute whirlpools are not uncommon, in addition to, or in lieu of (late) boil or flameout additions.

For those who wonder why, the lower the temps, the slower the bittering reactions, and the more flavor and aroma is retained.
 
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