Mouthfeel/Body

[glutarded-chris]

Rye is not a gluten free grain

 

[skleice]

The conventional schedule has the gelatinization rest toward the start of the mash schedule and it looks like this schedule has it at the end. I think you want the gelatinization rest to break up the longer chains first so that the enzymes like diatase can do their job. A shorter gelatinization rest at high temp reduces the risk of extracting off flavors from the husk. With termamyl or equivalent, it seems people are having success with a variety of schedules. You might try your 168F rest for 15 to 30 min toward the beginning and then leave it at a lower temp for a longer conversion rest with something like diatase.

Yeah, I was trying out the Bob Keifer's method. I have used it twice with mixed results. I brewed too very similar pale ales. First one went great, second was a real ***** to hit OG. Had to add some turbinado sugar to get there. Same crush & times for both. Next brew I'm gonna go back to the high rest first.

 

[dmtaylor]

Rye is not a gluten free grain

Crap.... sorry, I stumbled into the wrong group. Wonder if maybe lactose would help instead then.

 

[skleice]

Crap.... sorry, I stumbled into the wrong group. Wonder if maybe lactose would help instead then.

I figured. Lactose if definitely an option fwiw. Cheers

 

[TahoePowderHound]

Have any of you guys ever tried brewing with Dextrin Malts? I just discovered Boulder Fermentation Supply online and they sell Colorado Malting Company GF malts (free shipping over $50 is pretty sweet!)

They have a "Red Millet Foam Dextrin Malt" and a "Red Millet Pils Dextrin Malt". After some research I found that: "Dextrine malt is a generic term for malts that increase final gravity, body and foam stability in beer." Anyone know if this holds true for these dextrin millet malts from CMC?

On another note, its looks like CMC also makes a 60L crystal millet, all kinds of buckwheat malts (crystal 20, crystal 80, dextrin, vienna and even a chocolate up to 300L).

They seem to be out of stock for a lot of these malts but nonetheless got me excited to see some different malt options.

 

[skleice]

Don't Caramillet, Goldfinch, crystal fall into the dextrin category? I had no idea that CMC existed. Now I will have another excuse to spend money...my wife thanks you!

I'm drinking my Galaxy/Citra Pale ale right now and there is a definite improvement in the head retention and body. I believe this is heavily due to a larger dose of Caramillet and buckwheat. This was also brewed before treating my water. I will bottle my Mosaic pale on Monday and hope to see even more improvements due to treated water.

 

[TahoePowderHound]

Don't Caramillet, Goldfinch, crystal fall into the dextrin category?

Crystal does not fall into that category. I would guess that the CaraMillet by Grouse is a play on Briess' CaraPils and therefore would be a Dextrine Malt. I found this explanation helpful on another forum.

Let me summarize and add to the correct information given here on the various malts in question.

As Yooper Brew says, "dextrine malt" is a generic term for malts that increase final gravity, body and foam stability in beer. This is supposely done through the malts having a higher dextrine content which is questionable. Two examples of this are CaraPils, a Briess product and Carafoam, a Weyermann product. These malts are designed to add little flavor and color to the finished beer and mainly affect body and foam stability.

"Caramel malt" and "Crystal malt" are two terms that are often uses to refer to malts of higher color ( greater than 10 L) where the sugars have been caramelized. The British are more likely to use the term "crystal" as they produce carmelized malts that have a crystalline endosperm in the finished malt. To get this uniform crystalline endosperm, the carmelized malt must be produced in a roaster where the malt is moistened, stewed and then roasted and dried to get true carmelization and crytallinity. However, some "carmel" malts are made on a kiln by moistening the malt and attempting to get carmelization at high kiln temperatures. The problem with the kiln versus the roaster, the kiln has more air movement at high heat and only a small portion of the malt crystalizes. Most of the kernels of kilned carmel malts have a meally endosperms, like Munich malt. There is nothing wrong with this except it has a slightly different flavor from crystalline caramel malts made in a roaster.

So, even though the term "cara" is used in both "Carafoam" and "CaraPils", these dextrine malts should not be confused with caramel malts. Why have the maltsters used the term "Cara" in these products? It could be they use a roaster in producing these malts without the carmelization process, but I can not confirm this.


Dr Malt

 

[glutarded-chris]

CMC produces good matls. Red millet and other malts were available from them long before Grouse opened up. Grouse was appealing once they got going because they only produce gluten free malts in their facility. Also, when Eckert started offering rice many of us wanted some roasted rice malts. Grouse started only providing their homebrew malt through Gluten Free Homebrew, and since you could get everything from them, it sort of eclipsed CMC. I think the red millet is very good. At one time I thought it was better than the white millet. The other thing is that it was a little bit of a pain to order from CMC. You had to email Tim directly to find out what was in stock and place your order. They have probably improved that by now. Before I found them, they had some more exotic malts like teff and quinoa, but they never had it while I was buying from them. Definitely give CMC a look. I feel like all maltsters should be supported because we need options and competition. I started buying from Twila at Grouse when she and her husband started their business because I wanted their company to survive. I have to admit I never went back to CMC for no other reason than laziness!!!

 

[TahoePowderHound]

That’s good info GChris. I completely agree about supporting all maltsters. It should be much easier now that Boulder Fermentation Supply is their distributor. Their website is a little clumsy, but you can find everything with the search bar. Free shipping on orders over $50 is a big perk IMO. Their plain red millet malt is 3.60/lb, same as GFHB pale Millet. Everything else is 5/lb. It’s also pretty cool that they also sell all of the malts by the ounce for .33/ounce. Easy to try different specialty malts if you’re already at the free shipping mark.

I’ve placed an order for some crystal red 20 and 60 and some pils dextrin malt. Excited to expand the arsenal.

 

[skleice]

Chris, could you describe the difference between the red and white millet?

The various roasts look very interesting. I wish they had some descriptions on the site though. Free shipping is definitely a HUGE perk. I'm stocked for a while between JGunther and GFHB, but I'll get to CMC eventually.

 

[glutarded-chris]

I didn't do any head-to-head comparisons, but my impression was it just had more "millet" aroma in the mash and that flavor seemed to transfer subtly into the finished beer. I was doing partial mashes mostly at the time but I liked it. Maybe one of these times I will brew two side-by-side batches, one with red and one with white millet. I do mostly pale ales, so with them in the base, it should shine through. There may be others in the history on the forum that will have more helpful tasting notes. Osedax and Igliashon may have had some posts that talk about it.

 

[glutarded-chris]

I just went on Boulder Fermentation Supply's website and I have to say that is one of the worst online store websites I have seen to date. You can't even tell what quantities they are providing. Their site is so bad I think I would have to call or email them to be sure what I was getting.

 

[TahoePowderHound]

I just went on Boulder Fermentation Supply's website and I have to say that is one of the worst online store websites I have seen to date. You can't even tell what quantities they are providing. Their site is so bad I think I would have to call or email them to be sure what I was getting.

Funny you should post this. I was pretty excited to find a millet crystal 60L malt to help get me to the desired color. The website said they had plenty in stock, however, they called me today to say they're actually out and then tried to convince me to take chocolate malt instead. Thanks, but no thanks.

The website is definitely awful, but if they're the only show in town to buy CMC, I guess I will deal with it...

 

[skleice]

Sadly, the CMC website is not much better. I went to look for more info on their malts. No PPG, lovibond, tasting notes. Booooo

 

[skleice]

Ok, the head retention thing is really frustrating me. I've found that increased buckwheat and Caramillet do help with body, but the head retention is still garbage. My beers pour a good head and then it just disappears. The only time I seem to get decent retention is when they've been in the bottle for 6 weeks. I was hoping treating my water would help, but no dice.

Do your beers have a good head?
I've read that possibly the protein rest or the low boil on the Grainfather could be the problem. Grainfather guys, are your beers retaining head?

Any advice appreciated...

 

[TahoePowderHound]

Ok, the head retention thing is really frustrating me. I've found that increased buckwheat and Caramillet do help with body, but the head retention is still garbage. My beers pour a good head and then it just disappears. The only time I seem to get decent retention is when they've been in the bottle for 6 weeks. I was hoping treating my water would help, but no dice.

Do your beers have a good head?
I've read that possibly the protein rest or the low boil on the Grainfather could be the problem. Grainfather guys, are your beers retaining head?

Any advice appreciated...

Can’t speak on behalf of the Grainfather crew but I too get absolutely no head retention with my cooler set up. I can also get a good head upon pour which vanishes soon after. I added a few oz of maltodextrin to an ESB I made recently. Just opened last weekend after a month in bottle and i would say there was an improvement. But mainly on lacing, and a small foam “ring” hugging the edge of the glass, but not a true head.

 

[skleice]

I've had 3 beers with some head retention...
Hoppy Amber (2nd iteration is fermenting right now), Hefe & Belgian pale ale. I'm just not sure why. Roasted Caramillet, roasted buckwheat? I dunno.

I think I'm done brewing with oats for the time being. I thought cold crashing would help, but from what I read, the high lipid content is killing me.

I also have some flaked quinoa, but I kinda wanna try other variables first. If anybody is having success with this, please share.

 

[JMath]

Skleice,

I haven't worried about head retention yet, as it's pretty low on the list of things to focus on for me. I will say that of my grainfather brews so far, none have amazing retention but they do keep a nice ring of bubbles against the glass, just at the top of the beer. Back when I did sorghum beers I remember the bubbles disappearing completely and it basically looking like a cider, so that's an improvement.

Here's an anecdote though, just last night I had a bottle of Green's IPA which had amazing head retention. The ingredients listed are "Water, millet, buckwheat (soba), brown rice, sorghum, hops, yeast"

So, there may be something to the idea of time in the bottle, or they are really cranking up the buckwheat (notice how buckwheat is the third ingredient, indicating there is more buckwheat than rice or sorghum). Of course I wouldn't rule out their process either.

 

[brewGF]

Skleice,

I am an extract brewer and until recently all my brews suffered from poor head retention. I have easily solved that problem and now my beers have awesome head that lasts to the last sip and leaves beautiful lace down the glass.

Everyone here is correct in suggesting that buckwheat could be the solution. Actually, i am using Kasha, toasted buckwheat groats, but I am confident raw buckwheat groats will also do the job as I have used them successfully.

All i do is follow the Groundbreaker recipe here that Wes1 posted.
https://www.groundbreakerbrewing.co...-brewing-releases-gluten-free-homebrew-recipe

I steep in one pound of Kasha in a bag in my brew kettle with my water (say 5.5 gallons) starting from no flame and removing when water temp hits 160 degrees. This technique has been an awesome find for me. I think you should leave the buckwheat out of your mash and give this a shot...or I guess you could always double up on the buckwheat. Maybe the enzymes are effecting the buckwheat somehow or maybe its something in your water composition. If I have some time I can post some time laps pics of my most recent brew...although I tend to finish them rather quickly.

I am certain this head retention is a result of the kasha and not some other ingredient or factor and I no longer use any maltodextrin.

Good luck, I think this will do it for you.

 

[skleice]

Skleice,

I am an extract brewer and until recently all my brews suffered from poor head retention. I have easily solved that problem and now my beers have awesome head that lasts to the last sip and leaves beautiful lace down the glass.

Everyone here is correct in suggesting that buckwheat could be the solution. Actually, i am using Kasha, toasted buckwheat groats, but I am confident raw buckwheat groats will also do the job as I have used them successfully.

All i do is follow the Groundbreaker recipe here that Wes1 posted.
https://www.groundbreakerbrewing.co...-brewing-releases-gluten-free-homebrew-recipe

I steep in one pound of Kasha in a bag in my brew kettle with my water (say 5.5 gallons) starting from no flame and removing when water temp hits 160 degrees. This technique has been an awesome find for me. I think you should leave the buckwheat out of your mash and give this a shot...or I guess you could always double up on the buckwheat. Maybe the enzymes are effecting the buckwheat somehow or maybe its something in your water composition. If I have some time I can post some time laps pics of my most recent brew...although I tend to finish them rather quickly.

I am certain this head retention is a result of the kasha and not some other ingredient or factor and I no longer use any maltodextrin.

Good luck, I think this will do it for you.

Wow, thanks! This looks promising. I also remember hearing Bob Keifer talk about benefits of unmalted grains.

I downloaded the XML and it has the PPG & lovi, I just have to figure out how I'm going to incorporate this into the brew day. I've read that a protein rest (which I've been doing) can also be detrimental to head retention. So maybe do something like this?

0-160 degrees: Steep buckwheat groats (pull groats)
168: add Termamyl and mash in
154: add SEBAmyl L
170: mash out

I'm just worried about how this will effect my conversion, but I can adjust my times on the fly. I won't be brewing for a while cuz I'm pretty stocked, but I'll give this a shot. Thanks!

 

[brewGF]

In case I oversold the head retention, I'll let the pics do the talking. First is just gently poured, second is 10 minutes later, third is another 10 after that.

 

[JMath]

This won't be super helpful but I want to mention that I just kegged my beer for the first time, and the difference in head retention is astounding.

It was just a simple IPA with 10 lbs pale millet, 3 lbs biscuit rice, and 2 lbs buckwheat. That's the same amount of buckwheat I've been using for several batches, and none have had retention like this. And I'm not just talking about a lot of foam that can happen from a keg, but it actually sticks around longer than from the bottle. Maybe this is already well known but I don't understand the science behind it.

That being said, it could still be something else. I'll know for sure after I keg more batches.

 

[skleice]

This won't be super helpful but I want to mention that I just kegged my beer for the first time, and the difference in head retention is astounding.

It was just a simple IPA with 10 lbs pale millet, 3 lbs biscuit rice, and 2 lbs buckwheat. That's the same amount of buckwheat I've been using for several batches, and none have had retention like this. And I'm not just talking about a lot of foam that can happen from a keg, but it actually sticks around longer than from the bottle. Maybe this is already well known but I don't understand the science behind it.

That being said, it could still be something else. I'll know for sure after I keg more batches.

I've heard that from a few people. I'll be kegging later this year, so that will be nice.

I omitted the beta glucan step from my last brew because I read it could be detrimental to head retention (mainly for highly modified grains). My efficiency took a big hit, but we'll see what effect it has on the final brew. I'm also curious about using some unmalted grains too.

 

[skleice]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I just tried my Hoppy Amber and it had great head retention and lacing. It's only been in the bottle for 7 days too. My strawberry Hefe is the same story. The difference...NO OATS! I was using oats in my hoppy beers to get the slick mouth feel and haze, but it's causing too many problems. No mas! Carry on...

 

[brewGF]

When I have used oats I have obtained zero benefits and have been burdened with extra annoyances. No mas tambien.

 

[JMath]

Oats are out!