Made Simple Invert Sugars. - Jeff Alworth's Method.

[ba-brewer]

If you want a dry English Pale as an easy quaffer this will work with an once or two of roasted barley and your base grain. Using Williamett and Fuggles or Kent Golding.

That way if the color is off it's no big deal and you'll have a nice session beer.

I recently did a strong bitters with 90% maris otter and 10% sugar. I used the dilution method with golden syrup and molasses but the color was quite pale for being 4% black invert. I plan to try it again with 5% golden invert and 5% british crystal 150 or special B, hoping the dark malt gives a bit more color. Will have to think about adding a touch of roasted malt to dry it out a bit and add more color.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert/comment-page-1

 

[Northern_Brewer]

the color was quite pale for being 4% black invert.

Don't sweat it. And don't add highly-flavoured ingredients just to try and adjust colour - it doesn't work like that. Use caramel or black malt if you must, but British brewers are increasingly just not bothering.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Don't sweat it. And don't add highly-flavoured ingredients just to try and adjust colour - it doesn't work like that. Use caramel or black malt if you must, but British brewers are increasingly just not bothering.

My suggestion is I don't think what he made would need to go in the trash. Especially it doesn't taste bad. His only gamble is color.

The dark invert is for dryness, flavor and color. With regards to color as a 100% or a 50% sub for crystal malt. ** Also to help English yeasts that don't attenuate well. Windsor for example.

I make a beer that's an old extinct classic bitter with MO, invert and an oz of black malt or roasted barley. It doesn't need much to change the color.

I'm thinking Ruddles Best Bitter, but that not it after checking my World Beer Cup by Chucky-P. Probably in another book, maybe Cloned Beers...

** Reference Jeff Alworth, "The Secret of Master Brewers." See Pages 15 and 34. Not sure if it you have it on hand but the idea is from old brewer's in the UK that interviewed. It's in the cask beer section.

 

[Derp]

Just finished making 4 pounds of #3 using demerara, beginning on the stove top and then finishing in the oven at 245F for 2.5 hours. It was pretty dark to begin with, but I'll stick with Beersmith's default and call it 66 SRM. I carefully measured out 4 pounds of sugar and 64 ounces of RO water, but I ended up with 20 - 21 ounces by weight in each Ball jar. I would have made it 5 pounds in 5 jars, but I didn't have another one cleaned. I'll need to remember that my jars are 1.25 pounds each when I enter recipes into Beersmith.

 

[ba-brewer]

Don't sweat it. And don't add highly-flavoured ingredients just to try and adjust colour - it doesn't work like that. Use caramel or black malt if you must, but British brewers are increasingly just not bothering.

My suggestion is I don't think what he made would need to go in the trash. Especially it doesn't taste bad. His only gamble is color.

The dark invert is for dryness, flavor and color. With regards to color as a 100% or a 50% sub for crystal malt. ** Also to help English yeasts that don't attenuate well. Windsor for example.

I make a beer that's an old extinct classic bitter with MO, invert and an oz of black malt or roasted barley. It doesn't need much to change the color.

I'm thinking Ruddles Best Bitter, but that not it after checking my World Beer Cup by Chucky-P. Probably in another book, maybe Cloned Beers...

** Reference Jeff Alworth, "The Secret of Master Brewers." See Pages 15 and 34. Not sure if it you have it on hand but the idea is from old brewer's in the UK that interviewed. It's in the cask beer section.

I don't plan on dumping this beer, color is light but it still drinks OK.

The lighter beer is the strong bitters with 90% maris otter floor malted, 6% invert#2 (33SRM)and 4% black invert(170SRM), beersmith estimated an SRM of 10.6. Darker beer is a Belgian Pale ale, 92.5% german pilsner, 5% british crystal 70/80(75SRM), and 2.5% Special B(152SRM) which beersmith estimated to be 9.7 SRM.

The invert sugars were faked with the dilution method, I will try again some time with the real stuff maybe. As it would take a few hours to make black invert adding a touch dark malt seems like a more practical approach.

One of the reason I did this beer was I was curious to see if all sugar could really replace crystal and I recall seeing something about glucose helping with ester production. I seem to not get the that much esters even from yeasts that are suppose to big producers like WY1968. The strong bitters in the picture was fermented with WY1318.​

 

[Northern_Brewer]

The lighter beer is the strong bitter with 90% maris otter floor malted, 6% invert#2 (33SRM)and 4% black invert(170SRM), beersmith estimated an SRM of 10.6.

....adding a touch dark malt seems like a more practical approach. ​

Honestly, you seem to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Even the BJCP reckon that 11C Strong Bitter (no s) has SRM of 8-16, but I'd argue that in the real world it goes down to 2 or so. Certainly I've got a bottle of a commercial one in the fridge that's won a ton of international awards and is probably a touch paler than yours but 5.5%, so according to the BJCP it doesn't exist as it's neither a golden ale (on strength grounds, with which I would agree) nor a strong bitter (on colour grounds). It's just one of those areas where the BJCP guidelines don't quite reflect reality. But if it bothers you, just add caramel.

One of the reason I did this beer was I was curious to see if all sugar could really replace crystal and I recall seeing something about glucose helping with ester production. I seem to not get the that much esters even from yeasts that are suppose to big producers like WY1968. The strong bitters in the picture was fermented with WY1318.

​

I assume you mean from a flavour perspective rather than a sweet/dry perspective, where crystal and sugar are obviously completely different? Even then, they're not quite the same. Most British brewers who've made the comparison would say that 1968/002 aren't quite the same as actual British yeasts, there seems to be something about the commercial production process which inhibits flavour development but even after a repitch they're somewhat muted to eg the actual Fuller's strain. But a more British temperature profile will help - in short, pitch coolish, allow to free rise for a bit, then cool it again and don't let it clean up.

 

[Derp]

Most British brewers who've made the comparison would say that 1968/002 aren't quite the same as actual British yeasts, there seems to be something about the commercial production process which inhibits flavour development but even after a repitch they're somewhat muted to eg the actual Fuller's strain. But a more British temperature profile will help - in short, pitch coolish, allow to free rise for a bit, then cool it again and don't let it clean up.

I love Fuller's beers and I've tried my best with 1968, but I can never quite nail the marmalade flavor and my beers seem to go a bit limp and lifeless after a few weeks, no matter how many things I try. I've thought about ordering the same strain from Brewlabs to see if it behaves any differently. I currently use Sussex 1 (Harvey's?) from Brewlabs or 1469 in most of my British beers.

What's your take on the ideal British temperature profile? I conjured up a bitter recipe and it's fermenting now. I pitched at 65F and let it rise to 70 over 5 days. I'm thinking about cooling it and kegging it very soon. I overshot my mash temperature somehow and it started out at 157, so Beersmith says it'll finish around 1.015 and that seems to be where it's settled. Oh well, I'll still drink it.

 

[ba-brewer]

Honestly, you seem to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Even the BJCP reckon that 11C Strong Bitter (no s) has SRM of 8-16, but I'd argue that in the real world it goes down to 2 or so. Certainly I've got a bottle of a commercial one in the fridge that's won a ton of international awards and is probably a touch paler than yours but 5.5%, so according to the BJCP it doesn't exist as it's neither a golden ale (on strength grounds, with which I would agree) nor a strong bitter (on colour grounds). It's just one of those areas where the BJCP guidelines don't quite reflect reality. But if it bothers you, just add caramel.
​

​

My problem is the color estimate does not match the end product, which could be how beersmith treats invert sugar's color contribution or the color of the faux invert was less than input. I was expecting something slightly darker in color than the Belgian pale ale and got something lighter.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I love Fuller's beers and I've tried my best with 1968, but I can never quite nail the marmalade flavor and my beers seem to go a bit limp and lifeless after a few weeks, no matter how many things I try. I've thought about ordering the same strain from Brewlabs to see if it behaves any differently. I currently use Sussex 1 (Harvey's?) from Brewlabs or 1469 in most of my British beers.

Seems to be a common complaint with the homebrew versions. Harvesting from a bottle of 1845 is the other option - I've got a bottle but not opened it yet. If you believe the internet, both Harvey's and 1469 share a common origin at John Smith's, but as square yeasts they are very different to the main group of brewery yeasts. You might want to try WLP041 Pacific which despite the name is a cousin of WLP002, I've only used in once (in a beer that was a bit of a disaster for other reasons) but liked what I saw and intend to try it again. 1768/WLP033 ("Youngs") is meant to be slightly more interesting than WLP002 but is a seasonal. If you're getting stuff from Brewlab then F40 (from S&N) is meant to be notoriously fruity, and CC is another one worth having a play with - a real beast of a northern yeast. Might be worth

What's your take on the ideal British temperature profile? I conjured up a bitter recipe and it's fermenting now. I pitched at 65F and let it rise to 70 over 5 days.

I might go a degree or two lower, but it depends on the yeast, I wouldn't argue too hard against what you've got.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My problem is the color estimate does not match the end product, which could be how beersmith treats invert sugar's color contribution or the color of the faux invert was less than input. I was expecting something slightly darker in color than the Belgian pale ale and got something lighter.

In which case the answer is to cook it a bit more next time, rather than messing about with Special B?

 

[Derp]

Harvesting from a bottle of 1845 is the other option

I haven't seen a bottle of that in years. I'm lucky to find ESB, Pride and Porter on my local shelves, and even luckier if they were bottled less than 2 years ago.

If you believe the internet, both Harvey's and 1469 share a common origin at John Smith's

Interesting. I get a much different flavor with the Sussex 1 yeast than I do with 1469. Sort of a Belgian character...

You might want to try WLP041 Pacific which despite the name is a cousin of WLP002, I've only used in once (in a beer that was a bit of a disaster for other reasons) but liked what I saw and intend to try it again.

I don't think I've ever heard of that one. I'll give it a try sometime.

If you're getting stuff from Brewlab then F40 (from S&N) is meant to be notoriously fruity, and CC is another one worth having a play with - a real beast of a northern yeast.

What does CC stand for? Shipping is the most expensive part of ordering from the UK, so the next time I place an order I'll order multiple strains. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I haven't seen a bottle of that in years. I'm lucky to find ESB, Pride and Porter on my local shelves, and even luckier if they were bottled less than 2 years ago.

I wasn't sure what availability was like - I know Fuller's seem to have reasonable distribution Stateside, so it was worth a shout. A quick look on Untappd suggests it's certainly been seen at Central Market in the past if not now, and they have eg draught Pride so I imagine that they must be able to get 1845 for you even if they don't stock it normally. However, I see they do stock the current (2017) Vintage, which is also bottle-conditioned and at $10 they're not charging that much more than it is here (about $8 inc tax). Based on the cask versions, the 2017 is quite a lot nicer than the 2018 version - the bottles get released around Christmas.

[no affiliation, yada yada]

I get a much different flavor with the Sussex 1 yeast than I do with 1469. Sort of a Belgian character...

You're not alone - that's because the square yeasts are POF+ relatives of the saison family, although the purpose of the square system seems to be to try and minimise the phenolic character. I suspect that's just showing you how Brewlab's strains are that much more "true" and interesting. Brewlab also have an old John Smith yeast, can't remember the code offhand, but in theory that would be the "parent" of the Harvey's yeast.

 

[Derp]

I wasn't sure what availability was like - I know Fuller's seem to have reasonable distribution Stateside, so it was worth a shout. A quick look on Untappd suggests it's certainly been seen at Central Market in the past if not now, and they have eg draught Pride so I imagine that they must be able to get 1845 for you even if they don't stock it normally. However, I see they do stock the current (2017) Vintage, which is also bottle-conditioned and at $10 they're not charging that much more than it is here (about $8 inc tax).

I don't know if I've ever seen Pride on draft here in Texas, but Central Market isn't very far away, so I'll stop by tomorrow and see what's available. Ten bucks for a tasty beer isn't a problem, since I'd spend at least 8 bucks buying the yeast alone. Today I picked up a $14 4-pack of Lone Pint's Yellow Rose, but I figure it was only $6 after the cost of the yeast. I just finished boiling the starter wort...

Looks like Central Market are having a 2-week British celebration. Their add says that they have bangers, so I'm going to stock up. I haven't seen actual bangers for sale anywhere in this city of 2 million people. Hopefully they're good and I can find free space among the hops in my freezer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't know if I've ever seen Pride on draft here in Texas, but Central Market isn't very far away, so I'll stop by tomorrow and see what's available. Ten bucks for a tasty beer isn't a problem, since I'd spend at least 8 bucks buying the yeast alone. Today I picked up a $14 4-pack of Lone Pint's Yellow Rose, but I figure it was only $6 after the cost of the yeast. I just finished boiling the starter wort...

Heh, exactly how I figure it, I'm surprised more people don't harvest just on financial grounds. Particularly here, where ordinary b/c beer is US$2-3, Vintage is particularly expensive at $8, but standard Wyeast/WL pricing here is >$9 and the likes of Omega and Imperial are $12. Other halves don't quite understand the concept of buying beer to save money though!

Looks like Central Market are having a 2-week British celebration. Their add says that they have bangers, so I'm going to stock up. I haven't seen actual bangers for sale anywhere in this city of 2 million people. Hopefully they're good and I can find free space among the hops in my freezer.

Heh, that's cool. Their last Untappd checkin was for "draught" Pride with some Union flags in the background on 22 Sept. I assume that must be keg, but if it was cask as a special thing for the celebration then that's another yeast option... Will be tired now though if the same barrel is still on. Hmm - tired cask Pride, that's the real London pub experience!

 

[Derp]

Their last Untappd checkin was for "draught" Pride with some Union flags in the background on 22 Sept. I assume that must be keg, but if it was cask as a special thing for the celebration then that's another yeast option... Will be tired now though if the same barrel is still on. Hmm - tired cask Pride, that's the real London pub experience!

It's probably a keg, but I'll check it out tomorrow. The last Pint of Pride I had on cask was at the end of the brewery tour, so it was quite fresh and tasty!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks @Schlenkerla for this nice and easy recipe

I will surely use it in the future to see how it compares to Lyle's Golden Syrup, which I am currently using.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thanks @Schlenkerla for this nice and easy recipe

I will surely use it in the future to see how it compares to Lyle's Golden Syrup, which I am currently using.

You're welcome!

What do you plan to make beer and syrup-wise?

 

[Miraculix]

You're welcome!

What do you plan to make beer and syrup-wise?

I am actually really tempted to do the darkest version of it, but I do not want to boil something that long (just looking at energy consumption in a shared house), so i'll probably do something in between golden and amber. Maybe I will separate a little bit after 20-30 minutes, just to get a feeling of how the boil time affects the flavour.

Then I'll brew something like my current favourite, Miraculix Best, the recipe is in the ale section. Or maybe I'll try a bit of a historic english IPA. Not sure if the historic ones used Invert (actually pretty sure they did not), but let's see.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

maybe I'll try a bit of a historic english IPA. Not sure if the historic ones used Invert (actually pretty sure they did not), but let's see.

Depends - nothing before the Free Mash Tun Act in 1880 could legally use sugar, after that they tended to, particularly the Scottish ones.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How much sugar and water should I begin with in order to yield a full quart of Invert sugar #2 or #3?

What nominal SRM or EBC colors should be assigned to Invert #2 and Invert #3 respectively?

I see an example in post #15 above that was held for 90 minutes in an oven, and to me it only appears to be about ballpark 12-15 SRM. Is this as a consequence of beginning with white table sugar? Shouldn't Invert #2 be well darker than that?

 

[ba-brewer]

Seems like going by pre-inverted weight of sugar would give more consistent results over a volume measurement if you are interested in repeatability.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Seems like going by pre-inverted weight of sugar would give more consistent results over a volume measurement if you are interested in repeatability.

I'm interested in storing it in quart jars, and I would like them to be full.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Seems like going by pre-inverted weight of sugar would give more consistent results over a volume measurement if you are interested in repeatability.

I have used the sugar as you said pre-inverted. So if I wanted 8oz, I use 1/2 a jar. 1lb of sugar fits in a pint.

The stuff is thick. Doesn't pour well. I think you want to look at your likely about of use per given batch of beer. Package it accordingly or wing it with pour.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I'm interested in storing it in quart jars, and I would like them to be full.

Try two lbs. 1lb sugar and 1 pint water boils down to one pint.

I'm thinking it's pretty close to 1-Qrt if you double it.

 

[MaxStout]

Try two lbs. 1lb sugar and 1 pint water boils down to one pint.

I'm thinking it's pretty close to 1-Qrt if you double it.

The stuff is dense. I made a batch with 1lb sugar and 1 pint water, it yielded 17.6oz (weight) of invert. It barely filled 1/3 of a quart mason jar.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The stuff is dense. I made a batch with 1lb sugar and 1 pint water, it yielded 17.6oz (weight) of invert. It barely filled 1/3 of a quart mason jar.

View attachment 634854

Looks nice. How long did you hold it in the oven at 245 degrees F.? What is your estimated SRM (or Lovibond or EBC) for it?

 

[MaxStout]

I did it on stovetop. About 25 minutes simmering. Temp got higher than I wanted, close to 270F near the end. But I think it turned out OK color-wise. WAG I'd call it 10 SRM or so.

I put it in the fridge, and it is really viscous. If I turn the jar upside down it doesn't move. I'll need to set the jar in hot water a while before I use it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I did it on stovetop. About 25 minutes simmering. Temp got higher than I wanted, close to 270F near the end. But I think it turned out OK color-wise. WAG I'd call it 10 SRM or so.

I've been pondering if indeed the color will actually continue to darken if the temperature rise is arrested at 245 degrees F., as would be the case for moving it to an oven set at that temperature.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I've been pondering if indeed the color will actually continue to darken if the temperature rise is arrested at 245 degrees F., as would be the case for moving it to an oven set at that temperature.

It will. Hence the time for each type.

- Invert #1 - Golden - 20 to 30 minutes @ 240 - 250F.

- Invert #2 - Amber - 90 to 120 minutes @ 240 - 250F.

- Invert #3 - Brown - 2.5 to 3.5 hours @ 240 - 250F.

- Invert #4 - Dark Brown - 4 to 5 hours @ 240 - 250F.

The Amber I made was clear as water. My two other batches in the first posts were with other raw sugar grades and done longer. Like to brown.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I did it on stovetop. About 25 minutes simmering. Temp got higher than I wanted, close to 270F near the end. But I think it turned out OK color-wise. WAG I'd call it 10 SRM or so.

I put it in the fridge, and it is really viscous. If I turn the jar upside down it doesn't move. I'll need to set the jar in hot water a while before I use it.

You can pop the top lose and loosen the ring and double boil it for short time, then dump it into the BK or just soak it in hot water.

I've dumped what I could, heated/boiled my wort then used tongs to dip and dump the jar of residual invert into my BK. Works good.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Look at fill amounts on these pints.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Were these inverts (as seen in the picture above) done via the oven method? For the first one, what was the actual time you held it at 245 degrees, and what color are you estimating for it? To me it appears to be only about 6-7 SRM. What color should Invert #2 actually be?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

According to the unholymess site, "Invert #1, #2 and #3 are 26, 68 and 124EBC respectively," so rougly 13, 34, and 62srm respectively.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Were these inverts (as seen in the picture above) done via the oven method? For the first one, what was the actual time you held it at 245 degrees, and what color are you estimating for it? To me it appears to be only about 6-7 SRM. What color should Invert #2 actually be?

The first two in this were stove top. But all three Per the instructions. But the 2nd and 3rd were not with refined sucrose.

I'd say the time & temp was very well controlled. I keep it low and walked up the temp as needed. If it peaked passed my temp I lifted the pot and dialed back the temp slightly. Then let it do it's thing.

That said, I have heavy duty pots that cook/heat very evenly. 3-ply from Costco/Kirkland. When I say heavy, its to the point the wife refuses to use them. They don't burn food easily. You really got to bless up to burn stuff. If I had a direct fire MLT with this I'd be really happy.

I can't tell you the SRMs they never listed them in the book. I believe the times are target ranges.

Don't let the picture color be a sticking a point. Watch the colors and use a spoon or butter knife as inspection instrument.

The names are strickly what beer style they intended to be used with on an English Ale.

 

[Schlenkerla]

According to the unholymess site, "Invert #1, #2 and #3 are 26, 68 and 124EBC respectively," so rougly 13, 34, and 62srm respectively.

Thanks for the equivalency.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

This IBD article on Ragus may be helpful :

The Ragus range of brewing sugars are produced from raw cane and demerara sugars, with colours ranging from light brown amber to dark brown, and with flavours ranging from mellow to robust treacle. They are fully inverted products; in liquid form they consist of 95% invert and 5% sucrose, while in crystalline block form they contain 75% invert, 5% sucrose and 20% wheat-derived glucose. They are all 95% readily fermentable (and 5% non-fermentable) and with extract values of between 321.5 and 326.5 L°/Kg...

During the last 20 years, Ragus has for been the only block sugar supplier to the brewing industry. It has a continued commitment to keep supplying, despite not really being economically viable and Ben suggests that they represent a strong part of the company’s heritage.

Brewer’s Sugar No.1: This can be produced as a fully inverted (glucose-fructose mixture) syrup or seeded into a crystalline block. It’s 95% readily fermentable, with a subtle colour (25-35 EBC) and mellow flavour. It’s used in brewing lager and pale ale.

Brewer’s Sugar No.2: This can be produced as a fully inverted (glucose-fructose mixture) syrup or seeded into a crystalline block. It’s 95% readily fermentable, with an amber colour (60-70 EBC) and strong flavour. It’s used in bitter and strong ale.

Brewer’s Sugar No.3: This can be produced as a fully inverted (glucose-fructose mixture) syrup or seeded into a crystalline block. It’s is 95% readily fermentable, with a dark brown colour (120-140 EBC) and rich flavour. It’s used in mild ale, stouts and porters.

Also available is Brewer’s Sugar No.4, a fully inverted syrup or crystalline block with a darker colour (550 – 650 EBC for the block, 625- 724 EBC for the syrup) derived from caramel rather than the dark cane sugars in Nos. 1 to 3.

The Ragus Brublock range ("Bru" = glucose, "Brew" = invert) are crystalline blocks containing 75% glu-cose and coloured with cane molasses (No.1 and 2) and caramel (No.3). They give the same extract values (321.5 to 326.5 L°/Kg) as the invert brewing sugars, but are less fermentable at 80% readily fermentable, 4% slowly fermentable and a maximum 16% un-fermentable sugars. Other brewing sugars products available are Dark Brewing Syrup (an invert syrup at 2875 – 3375 EBC), Brewers Candy Block, and a conveni-ent Glucose Chip Block at 80% readily fermentable sugar...

Brewers No.1 could possibly be made from beet [but isn't], but Nos 2 to 4 need cane to produce colour without any danger of any associated beet (or turnip) notes....

The sugar crystals are dissolved in large inversion pans by heating the sucrose solution to over 70°C...heated by jackets of circulating hot water.

When the solution reaches a sugar content of 66%, it can be called liquid sugar. This can then be invert-ed by applying a solution of acid (or enzymes), making the syrup acidic with a pH value of 1.6. When the desired ratio of sucrose to glucose/fructose is achieved to a polarisation of -20, the syrup is neutralised with sodium carbonate, bringing its pH value to between 5.0 and 6.0. The syrup is now fully inverted (95% invert sugar and 5% sucrose) and can be kept in this state or have more sucrose added to produce a Partial Invert Syrup (44% sucrose:56% invert)....The invert syrup is then passed through a 40-micron filter

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Interesting that they neutralize it at the end. Most people make no mention of doing this step. At a nominal pH of 1.6 I can understand the need to neutralize invert sugar. It is quite highly acidic.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Need to do this.... Haven't done it in awhile. I really liked the demerara.

 

[eimar]

Interesting thread ( I'm from Belgium ) . I'm confused, could someone explain the difference between your inverted sugar ( sugar + citric acid + water + heat ) and candi syrup ??

Jacques

 

[JimRausch]

Moderators: Please make this a sticky so we can easily find it in the future! Especially the first couple of posts that explain the technique. Thank you.