Low bucks motorized grain mill

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Even though the AC gearmotor works great I started thinking about that DC gearmotor I found at American Science and Surplus and wondered if I could make it work for this application.

http://www.sciplus.com/p/CAR-SEAT-312VDC-GEAR-MOTOR_49248

MOTOR, 12VDC GEAR W/R.A. WORM DRIVE, 190RPM (BP) $14.75 plus 5.95 S&H ( $20.70 total )

I knew that it's original purpose was to move car seats back and forth so even though I didn't have a torque rating for it I knew that it must be pretty stout to move a car seat with your average adult american sitting in it. The 190 RPM speed would be a improvement as well.

The other pieces of hardware needed would be a DC motor controller board of some kind, mounting bracket, wires, spade connectors, another Lovejoy coupler and a 12V power supply.

Rooting around in my junk box I found a 3.3A 12V power supply, similar ones on Amazon sell for around $10. The motor is rated to stall at 25A so I was a liitle concerned that 3.3A would not be enough power but I can now report that this is plenty, more on this later.

If you don't have one laying around here's a 6A 12V power supply from Amazon...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TUMDWG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

6a Adapter Power Supply for LCD Monitor with Power Cord ($6.60 plus ? S&H )

Since this is a reversible motor I knew I needed a motor controller that could switch polarity, on Amazon I found this DC motor controller...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EQ1UQXU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Generic Reversible 6V-30V 6A Pulse Width PWM DC Motor Speed Controller Governor $10.69 w/free shipping ( from China, took less than 9 days to get here. )

This controller is rated for 12V 10A max which seems to be plenty. It comes with a forward/off/reverse switch and a speed control pot, nifty!

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Once I had all the parts in hand the first thing I did was make all the electrical connections and verify that everything worked. The power connector on the motor is/was some kind of unique plug design, the kind that you'll never find the correct corresponding wire harness to fit it. The work around on that was to carefully cut away the outer shell of the connector which exposed 2 standard sized spade connectors.

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All wired up everything worked as advertised.

Next, as a safety precaution, I decided to put the motor controller board in an enclosure, anything bigger than the board itself would work fine. I found a clear plastic box that an Ipod had come in that was just about perfect, a little whittling and a couple of zip-ties later and it's good to go. Since the box is clear I get to see the LEDs light up and look at the components, cheap thrills.

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For the purpose of setup I mounted the motor to a scrap board using a Stanley L-bracket I had laying around, I think it was about a 2.5" or maybe 3" bracket. I had to drill a new mounting hole in the bracket to raise the motor up a little, I then cut off the unused portion of the top part of the bracket just for looks.

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Next I took an angle grinder and cut off all but about 1.5 inches of the shaft. I placed another scrap board under the shaft while cutting to keep unnecessary pressure off the shaft.

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The closest size Lovejoy coupler was an L050 with a .438" bore, to make it fit I had to file down the shaft. To do this, with the motor still connected to the scrap board and clamped down on the workbench, I turned the motor on and used the motor itself as a lathe.

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As I was milling away the excess shaft material it was necessary for me to bear down pretty hard with the file and I can report that at no point did the motor act like it was going to stall. The motor did get a little warm but only after I had spent like 10 minutes bearing down on the shaft; this tells me that I have more that enough torque and that 3.3A should be plenty of power.

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Here's a photo of the DC motor next to the AC motor, at this point I don't plan on changing motors but I'm pretty confident that the DC motor setup would work fine if I did.

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I put around $40 into this experiment and had at least twice that dollar amount of fun playing with it.:)
 
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You can't stop there! Please at least give it a test run. This has been an awesome thread, thanks!
 
Thanks for this, just when I was starting to feel content with my motor... I went ahead and ordered one of these. This appears to be everything I would want to change on my already well working mill, even more compact and a more appropriate speed. I'm going to initially try it without a switch for the polarity and see how well that works, as I already have everything else but that and the different coupler size. Do you think a 12mm bore would fit the shaft? If this works well I may have to finally build a proper station for the mill! This thread keeps getting better and better!
 
Spellman, don't let yourself be dragged into my madness, get out while you still can!!! :)

Stealthcruiser and mattd2, I'm steadily working on getting my AG setup going but I'm still at least a month away from needing any grain crushed. I'm still working on welding up my 3 tier brewstand and I haven't even ordered my new brew pots yet ( although I do have some b*tching 3 piece ball valves with quick disconnects waiting on my desk ). I can't decide if I want 10 gallon or 15 gallon pots.
But honestly I think the DC gearmotor will work fine, I was seriously bearing down hard on the shaft with a file for at least 10 minutes and the motor never even slowed down. That being said I will go ahead and hook the DC motor up to the mill and use that motor for the first real grain crush, hopefully in a month or so. Cheers!
 
Definitely go at least 15. Mine are 17 and I do a lot of 10g batches, with all of my calculations with loss, boil off, cooling shrinkage, and so on I need 13.5 initial boil volume to get me 11 in the fermentor, to get me 5 in each keg. With the 15 you will still be able to do a 5g batch just fine. And yeah, for $20 you bet your @ss i'm going to give it a go! With everything I have found on the net and in another thread:

"I was once told by a brewery designer that the magic number is 15 inches per second face roller speed. Figuring a 1.5 inch roller would be 4.5 inches circumference, that would be 3 rotations per second, being 180 rpm as ideal speed for the roller." -ImaBrewinfool

This seemed to make great sense and is pretty close to other information I have found. The cereal killer has 1.25" rollers which factors out to be about 230rpm, which this gets me right in the wheel house. If this works well, I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble selling the first one to a friend...unless they see the new one that could be had for $20. Damn. If that is the case my only option is to buy another mill for the spare motor and brew twice as often!
 
Definitely go at least 15. Mine are 17 and I do a lot of 10g batches, with all of my calculations with loss, boil off, cooling shrinkage, and so on I need 13.5 initial boil volume to get me 11 in the fermentor, to get me 5 in each keg. With the 15 you will still be able to do a 5g batch just fine. And yeah, for $20 you bet your @ss i'm going to give it a go! With everything I have found on the net and in another thread:

"I was once told by a brewery designer that the magic number is 15 inches per second face roller speed. Figuring a 1.5 inch roller would be 4.5 inches circumference, that would be 3 rotations per second, being 180 rpm as ideal speed for the roller." -ImaBrewinfool

This seemed to make great sense and is pretty close to other information I have found. The cereal killer has 1.25" rollers which factors out to be about 230rpm, which this gets me right in the wheel house. If this works well, I'm pretty sure I would have no trouble selling the first one to a friend...unless they see the new one that could be had for $20. Damn. If that is the case my only option is to buy another mill for the spare motor and brew twice as often!

Agree with the pot size - what's the difference in cost between the 2?

1 month isn't long to wait - good luck on you build :D
 
You guys are awesome. I am looking forward to hearing how that DC motor works out.

I'm a little tight on the brew funds right at the moment but I think this project or something very close just went to the top of my "things I want to do" list.

I currently have a Corrona mill that I turn with a large drill... I'm thinking it now need a dedicated motor drive...:)

I will keep a close eye on this thread so I don't miss a thing.

Thanks again for all the info.
 
A couple things, I'm trying to get the dc motor up and running, and trying to compile how much torque we are getting on these motors.

1. With the dc motor hooked straight up it to a power supply doesn't want to turn. It kind of strobes and makes half turns. I tried hooking it up to a pwm I had in my stir plate and it doesn't want to turn much either until I spin the dial, then it seems to catch its breath and operate normally. I'm guessing this goes back to needing some sort of start capacitor? The pwm has some caps built in and I'm guessing when I spin the dial it allows them to charge up and operate correctly. I should note that I have the switch wired before adapter on that so that if I shut the switch off it powers down the adapter as well and isn't on all the time. Would it be possible to use some of my other caps in front of this motor? I don't exactly know how the voltage works on those, if I am only supplying it with 12v will it only put that out?

2. I believe the larger ac motor is mislabeled 10 lbs/in torque. If my calculations are correct it is more like 53 lbs/in. Everything I could find on adequate torque for a mill suggested that 30-40 is minimum. From what I read 10 probably would have little to no chance at working, which would support the fact it may be a higher number. I know it isn't exact science, but I saw a motor on ebay that looked almost exactly the same as these, but I think it was a different brand. It had almost the same specs for power consumption and rpm, and I think they said it was like 60 lbs/in torque or something. Sorry no link to that as I saw it on my phone and don't remember what I searched for, all I remember is it was used for a hospital bed.

I'll put up all the equations and calculations I have been using so that someone smarter than me can look them over in another long winded post when I get a chance. Work has been crazy busy!
 
Decided to give the DC motor setup a whirl :p
Got the motor and power supply waiting on the controller. Have a 1/2" lovejoy on hand but it is too big. Where did you get the lovejoy with the .438" bore?
 
Spellman, my memory on DC motors is a bit fuzzy but I think the deal is that the controller is needed to send pulses of current to the motor, something about a sawtooth wave form? All I know for sure is that cheapy controller I bought works great.
BTW, I decided on 15 gallon pots; they should be arriving early next week. I did have to adjust my brew stand design a little for the bigger pots but the pieces of steel I've cut already will still work I believe, hopefully I can start welding this weekend!
 
That's great news! I'm sure you will not regret the bigger pots! I had thought more about using some of those caps I had and I decided not to try them. I don't think they would damage the motor, but would also not have much effect on them. I think the "strobing" was because dc motors have a lot of inrush that they need to start the motor turning. I was looking up some tips on wiring power seat motors and it looks like they need about 5-7 amps when they move with a person in the seat, and spike up towards 15a when the seat reaches the end of the movement path (forcing it to max out and stall). I'm guessing the 5a supply I was testing with didn't have enough poop in the pants to get it going properly, as there is probably a high spike in amps initially to get it moving. The led of the power supply would blink with the motor pulses. I'm guessing the capacitors on these pwm's helps relieve this inrush and allows it to start moving. When used in a car they don't have one of these attached, but they also have access to 25a from the battery. Essentially the pwm is a cheap and easy work around for this. My pwm didn't have the switch (and I don't think it was a very high amperage one either), and I'm guessing that the caps would charge before activating the motor by the switch. Bottom line I have one on order!

On another note I think my 12mm coupler should be arriving today and I will report back how well it fits. This thread is super awesome as I haven't seen much information on using smaller motors such as these, and I love getting things documented for future use!
 
Hooked everything up last night and it was a no-go. I don't think 6A is enough. Had about 4 lbs. in the hopper and it wouldn't budge. I'm going to try an old PC ATX PSU to see if a little more oompf will help. Will also try starting without a loaded hopper to see if that makes a difference.

FWIW, I ended up boring out the coupler rather than milling down the shaft to get things to fit.
 
Got my 12mm coupler yesterday which fits very well. The pwm also came in and i still have the same issues with it pulsing which cease after i slow the speed down and raise back up. I'd have to look back at my notes, but i think 10a should give more of the torque we need. I have an old computer supply as well that i may try using, but it won't be for a week or two that i can get that going. I'm still confident we can get this motor up and running for what we need.
 
Hooked everything up last night and it was a no-go. I don't think 6A is enough. Had about 4 lbs. in the hopper and it wouldn't budge. I'm going to try an old PC ATX PSU to see if a little more oompf will help. Will also try starting without a loaded hopper to see if that makes a difference.

FWIW, I ended up boring out the coupler rather than milling down the shaft to get things to fit.

MerlinWerks, I'm bummed that you're having problems with this...
The motor and mill turns okay with no grain in the hopper? No binding at the coupler at all? My 3A power supply seems to be plenty, I don't understand it. Are you using the same controller board I have on mine? I wasn't getting much out of mine until I cranked up the speed control potentiometer over halfway. Let me know how it does with starting with an empty hopper.

I will mount my motor this weekend and make a couple of trial runs, I would have done that before now but I've been busy working on the brewstand, lately I've been working on modifying the 60 qt. Igloo cube cooler I'm going to use for my MLT.
 
It spins just fine with an empty hopper, no binding etc. I have the same controller you linked to ( set to max), I also have a more basic one with out the reverse switch for my stir plate, but it didn't work any different. The PC PSU wasn't any better, although it is a generic one and I would question whether it is really delivering 23A as stated.

I tried starting with an empty hopper and then adding some grain and it stalled pretty quickly. It is a mystery though, as I mentioned I bored out the coupler, if I would try to mill the shaft the way you did I'm reasonably certain I could stall it. I can slow it down to a crawl just by hand. Actually it seems to have more torque in one direction than the other, because in one direction I can stall it by hand.

I'll certainly be curious to see how you make out with it.
 
I also noticed that when off you can spin in one direction with your hand, but not the other. I wonder if it needs more power to go in one direction or the other. MerlinWerks, does you motor turn if you switch it on with the dial full blast at start? I'm trying to figure out if there is something amiss with the one i have. As for the atx psu, I believe you need to tie all the rails together to get the full 23a output.
 
Consumed with guilt and remorse I hurried home from work today and hooked up the DC gear motor.
Not having 4 pounds of grain to test on, I loaded the 1 pound I had on hand and using a heavy brick tamped that pound of grain down to simulate a heavier load.
Much to my chagrin the 3A power supply didn't live up to my hopes and dreams, argh! It tried, bless it's heart, but it did that pulsing stuff you referred to. Next I hooked up a 23A 12V supply I had waiting in the wings and that bad boy did the job with flying colors!

IMG_2122a.jpg

So apologies to all for the bad intel on the correct size of power supply.

For what's it's worth when I ran the hopper empty with the 3A PS I tried stopping the shaft from turning by holding onto the coupler and squeezing as hard as I could and it didn't even slow down, apparently that's not a good way to test it... :)

I took another shaky video of the test run, if anyone wants to see it let me know and I will e-mail it to you.
 
Mine starts immediately with the pot on full. I have all but two rails tied together for a total of four or five.

Hmm, that should do it. Not to belittle you or anything, but you are sure you have the +12v (yellow I think) hooked up? Just trying to get a baseline for troubleshooting what could be going on with these.

J Hanna, I'm glad you got it working! I was beginning to wonder if the build quality of these motors was lacking, which is why science & surplus got a hold of them cheap. Now the question, which will you ultimately use?
 
Hmm, that should do it. Not to belittle you or anything, but you are sure you have the +12v (yellow I think) hooked up? Just trying to get a baseline for troubleshooting what could be going on with these.

No offense taken, it doesn't hurt to double-check, I do have the +12V (yellow) wires tied together.

J_HANNA

Although I understand your point of view please don't feel bad, on my account anyway. I knew this would be an experimental venture and was fully prepared to accept the consequences good or bad. And it looks like this will still fly, I'll look forward to your future results. I should be able to borrow a lab supply from work to do some more testing myself.
 
Well in that case that super sucks! I was planning on trying an atx supply myself when I get some time to rip it out of one of my graveyard computers. Hopefully it will work. That would be awesome to try out the lab supply. Does it by chance have any readout on what current is being drawn? That would be super awesome and helpful!

And yes, I'm not too worried either about this little endeavor, it wasn't very expensive and has been fun trying to get to the bottom of it. In theory and on paper this motor should work, its just a matter of finding what we need to make it do so!
 
Hmm, that should do it. Not to belittle you or anything, but you are sure you have the +12v (yellow I think) hooked up? Just trying to get a baseline for troubleshooting what could be going on with these.

J Hanna, I'm glad you got it working! I was beginning to wonder if the build quality of these motors was lacking, which is why science & surplus got a hold of them cheap. Now the question, which will you ultimately use?

The DC motor running at 180 RPM munched through that pound of grain in like 15 seconds, a noticeable speed improvement. Since it's already hooked up and ready to go I'll just keep the AC motor as a back up. Cheers!
 
Consumed with guilt and remorse I hurried home from work today and hooked up the DC gear motor.
Not having 4 pounds of grain to test on, I loaded the 1 pound I had on hand and using a heavy brick tamped that pound of grain down to simulate a heavier load.
Much to my chagrin the 3A power supply didn't live up to my hopes and dreams, argh! It tried, bless it's heart, but it did that pulsing stuff you referred to. Next I hooked up a 23A 12V supply I had waiting in the wings and that bad boy did the job with flying colors!

Unfortunately, still no joy here. I used a 50A bench supply, loaded 1lb of grain and it still wouldn't go. Meter on the supply registered 10A which is what the controller is limited to, but it just stalled. It would work if I started with an empty hopper and slowly poured the grain in, but obviously that is not practical. So maybe I got a sub-par motor or the 10" rollers on my JSP MaltMill present a more difficult load than your mill. The gap is fixed at .035" so I'm not trying to mill too fine, a hand drill turns it with no problem with a 16Lb. load in the hopper.
 
What if you wired it straight to the supply and bypass the controller. The controller is rated for 10a, but I wouldn't think there is anything on it that would prevent a higher current, you just run the risk of frying it. I could totally be wrong and it has a limiter of some sorts though!
 
Tried it tonight without the controller and just the bench supply, a little better. Did a cold start with 3/4 lb., it did go though it, albeit very slowly, I'd guess around 60 rpm. Never drew more than 8A or so.
 
That's great you got it functional! It also good to get a baseline so we have an idea of the ballpark for the current drawn. As for the speed, visually 190 rpm isn't spectacular. I didn't feel that mine was going much faster than the 63 rpm ac motor. I placed a coupler on the shaft to make it easier to see. I then set a timer and began counting. After about 15 or 20 seconds I gave up as it obviously was the 190 or close to it. Most drills on the low speed seting are around 400-500 rpm, which is actually a little faster than ideal. I'm getting super anxious to find time to continue tinkering with this motor.
 
That's great you got it functional! It also good to get a baseline so we have an idea of the ballpark for the current drawn. As for the speed, visually 190 rpm isn't spectacular.

I get your point about the visuals, but my motor definitely spins faster unloaded, I'm assuming at it's rated 190 rpm. My drill is variable speed and I would guess I typically run it somewhere between 60 - 180 rpm.

J_HANNA

Thanks for the videos. I'd say my DC motor under load is turning at the rate of your AC motor. I'll look forward to your results after you get a few full crushes under your belt. Where did you get the 23A supply, although I can't imagine the bench supply I'm using wouldn't be adequate, it's old school analog, weighing in at 50 Lb. or so. If worse comes to worse, I suppose I could send you my motor to see if performs as well as yours.
 
MerlinWerks,
I borrowed it from work. My day job is repairing slot machines and those 12V supplies are used to power almost everything in the cabinet; lights, reels, ticket printers, etc.

There are several on Amazon that look similar but I doubt if they are the same quality.
 
Got busy with work, then thanksgiving, then work again. Got a few batches in here and there with the ac motor which works even better with the 5 mfd cap I got for it, only quite slow. Haven't had the time to do much with the dc motor yet. Need to chop the shaft down (should take about 30 sec), and then get it mounted for correct height (could go quick, could need a few runs to the store). My atx power supply made it turn with no load, but we will see. I now have a heavy duty car battery charger that I could throw it on in the event the atx wasn't enough. Actually tomorrow or friday I may have time to tinker a bit!
 
I should provide a couple pics, maybe tomorrow or so, but I found a couple motors I am going to give a try - both 120v. Giving this info just in case someone else might be able to scrounge something similar. Anyway - first one was at our local gym. I know the guy who runs it and he said he had a couple treadmills in the back I could part out as they were going to the dump otherwise. I looked at the motor that runs the track but it was big, 240 volt, and not dust proof. But the motor that raises and lowers the ramp - that one looks promising so I grabbed a couple. They cost me a 6-pack of home brew IPA. They look very similar to J Hanna's car seat motor. Don't yet know the rpm.

The other motor I got last night was a guy replacing his garage door opener. The gear had sheared off so he just gave it to me. It has a 1/2" shaft, is 1/2 hp (Sears), and seems like it might work. Works fine otherwise. Only problem is it isn't a dust proof motor.. but I will build a little shelter for it and it should be fine - not worried about it overheating much or if it does, can add a foam protected fan.

So one of these might work if not both. I have a wood shop so probably can find other uses otherwise. cheers, JD
 
Just did a test with the 12v dc motor...success! I put 3 lbs of 2 row in the hopper and turned it on, and it chewed it all up just fine! I had it wired directly into a dell 250w atx computer power supply (I believe it maxes out at 16A), and then I had the ps unit wired to a switch. In my test it didn't seem to bog down too much at any time, although while milling grain I don't believe it was doing the full 190rpm, but it was spinning at a constant speed. In the end it was much faster than the 63rpm ac motor. I plan to do another batch soon and I'll report back how it works with a full hopper and a longer run.
 
Glad to hear the DC motor works with the ATX p/s, those are usually easy to come by. As for myself the cold weather has kept me out of the shop so the brew stand is on hold for now. Fortunately I've cellared quite a bit of grog over the last 5 or 6 brews so I'm not overly unhappy about putting the project on hold for decent weather. Since I've been stuck inside I've been working on another project, a DIY digital thermometer. I should be posting about that in a couple of days. Cheers!
 
Did a full hopper with a cold start, worked great, took 3:15 from start to finish. I milled about 20lbs this morning and the external temp was 117*. I'm sure that is well within its operating conditions when you think about it being used inside a car on a hot summer day. When I finally get around to making a mill stand I think I need to beef up the bracket a bit as it wobbles and twists a bit under load, but other than that it works amazing and with appropriate speed!
 
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