Lawyers (or anyone knowledgeable): Legal question concerning LHBS!

[dwhite60]

In this day an age social media is the court of public opinion. If you're all about the principle then instead of spending $100+ in court costs to get your $40 ask him if it makes good business sense for him to honor his purchase agreement and lose $40 or consider it a marketing expense to prevent poor press. (Although as I write that it sounds more like extortion, even though you're only trying to get what was agreed to under no duress on either party).

I put little if any faith in what I read on social media.

There are three sides to every story.

I'd take the refund, smile, shake his hand, and then MAYBE take my business elsewhere.

Had an auto parts chain give me a bad deal on a water pump that failed after three days. Had to have another, of course another brand, installed. Second repair cost $350.

After taking the water pump back and waiting two months they offered me $140, cost of the pump plus $50. I wanted cost of the pump and $200. I don't shop there anymore unless I absolutely, positively have to. My guess is this one occurrence has cost them $2K to $4K.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[Roadliner]

I put little if any faith in what I read on social media.

I think a lot of us don't.. but there is a reality today that social media can destroy a person's life or business. oi.. sorry

 

[TasunkaWitko]

The early decision to give this guy money for kegs that took a year to show up? And then when they finally did show up, they suddenly cost more money than what the owner and customer originally agreed to?

I would regret that decision too. Anybody in their right mind would regret that decision.

Imagine going to the window at a fast food restaurant, and the person at the window takes your money and says, "please pull up to the front door and we'll bring your food out to you when it's done cooking." And so you do and then ONE YEAR LATER somebody comes out of the front door and says, "your food is done cooking, but...uh...beef prices have really gone up in the past year, so...we'll need an extra dollar for this burger we sold you. A year ago. Sorry for the wait."

You're forgetting that he happily agreed to the wait that year. In the meantime, he was free any time to back out of the deal, which I probably would have done after two months. If the situation changes due to circumstances beyond his control, there's no binding, legal reason why the LHBS guy needs to eat it, any more than there is a binding, legal reason that the OP should be eating it. The LHBS could be a "nice guy" and eat it, or the OP could be a "nice guy" and just pay the man.... Or they could both be "nice guys' and meet in the middle.

 

[LandoLincoln]

You're forgetting that he happily agreed to the wait that year. In the meantime, he was free any time to back out of the deal, which I probably would have done after two months. If the situation changes due to circumstances beyond his control, there's no binding, legal reason why the LHBS guy needs to eat it, any more than there is a binding, legal reason that the OP should be eating it. The LHBS could be a "nice guy" and eat it, or the OP could be a "nice guy" and just pay the man.... Or they could both be "nice guys' and meet in the middle.

No, he absolutely did NOT agree to that kind of time. He bought the system minus two kegs and the guy (at the time of the agreement) said, "I get more kegs in all the time, so I'll call you when I get some more."

And then A YEAR PASSED.

If the guy said at the time of the purchase, "By the way, it might take up to a year to get you those two kegs" who on Earth would agree to that deal? Nobody.

But it's really not about the ridiculous amount of time that this order took. It's about the agreement made and the money changing hands. "I give you this money and you give me the merchandise, and I'll be a nice guy about it and give you all of the money even though I haven't even gotten all of the merchandise yet, with the understanding that I'll get the rest of my merchandise at a later date." And then the seller attempts to change the agreement AFTER the money changed hands. That is WRONG to attempt to do that. That's how you lose customers, and rightfully so.

Legally, sure, it's a different story, and the seller would probably be forced to return the original money for the kegs not delivered and not much else. Pissing off a customer, losing their business, and having that person going and blabbing to everyone that he knows and getting onto social media websites and telling everyone how you don't know how to run a business is certainly going to cost the seller more than $40, so the business owner not sticking to the original agreement is a really bad business move in my opinion.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

No, he absolutely did NOT agree to that kind of time.

Yes, he did:

Well, he lost his keg supplier, and didn't get any in, and it's now been over a year. I didn't bust his balls about it, since I bought other kegs from elsewhere for a good price, and I wasn't hurting for kegs. Whenever they came in was fine.

 

[BigFloyd]

Here's the really important one to ask yourself - Is the very modest amount of $$ you're talking about worth the stress that you've already put yourself through over this?

In this sort of situation, going the "I'm gonna sue you" route is certain to multiply that stress many times and prolong a negative in your own life that will certainly intrude upon your enjoyment of home brewing.

I'd suggest approaching the LBHS owner as a friend, letting him know that you understand and appreciate the difficulty of the situation he's in. Come straight out and say that you're not entirely happy just getting just $40 bucks back since you've been patient and tried to work with him. If he offers to sweeten the deal some (a couple of batches worth of grain, hops and yeast at his cost perhaps?), take it and be glad. If he balks, take the $40 refund anyway but let him know that you've reluctantly decided not to do business with him any longer.

Now, go have a beer.

 

[max384]

I stopped in and talked to him in person. He eventually agreed to give me the kegs, but only after I threatened legal action.

And to top this experience off, the "ball lock kegs" were actually converted pin locks (without a release valve), which won't work for my kegerator, as I don't have room for a wider keg. I took them though, since I'll be able to sell them for more than the $40 refund. I can't believe he was treating these as the same as ball lock kegs...

I'm glad I'm done with this now.

Anyone need converted pin lock kegs?

 

[hunter_le five]

Glad to hear you came to some kind of resolution, such as it was.

And to top this experience off, the "ball lock kegs" were actually converted pin locks (without a release valve), which won't work for my kegerator, as I don't have room for a wider keg. I took them though, since I'll be able to sell them for more than the $40 refund. I can't believe he was treating these as the same as ball lock kegs...

Well, do they not have ball-lock posts on them?

 

[TasunkaWitko]

So - you're "friendship is good only so long as it works to your advantage, and when things don't go you're way, you jump straight from disagreement to threats.

Good to know!

 

[max384]

Glad to hear you came to some kind of resolution, such as it was.



Well, do they not have ball-lock posts on them?

They do have ball lock posts on them... But I specifically bought Pepsi kegs (what it said on the receipt). Even if he didn't specify this on the receipt, the kegs simply are not the same, and can not be sold interchangeably as the same product.

So - you're "friendship is good only so long as it works to your advantage, and when things don't go you're way, you jump straight from disagreement to threats.

Good to know!

It's good only so long as I'm not being taken advantage of. I'd never do what he did to me to a friend, thus I don't expect a friend to do that to me.

But, frankly, could you please stop posting in my thread?

 

[BigFloyd]

Hey, is that a V-Strom in your avatar? Nice bike.

 

[max384]

Hey, is that a V-Strom in your avatar? Nice bike.

Thanks! It's an SV, but I've converted it into a touring bike, so it gets confused for a V-strom often.

 

[max384]

By the way, the name of the shop is Beer Solutions in Wilkes Barre, PA.

 

[EJay]

Legally this is a toss up. Someone can typically get out of a contract if they have had a substantial change in position between when the bargain was made and the breach. If he lost his supplier for reasons that were not his fault he would likely win in court. Courts are very hesitant to enforce contracts that force one side to sell at a loss.

This is entirely contrary to everything I know about contract law (which is a fair amount). I know of nothing in UCC or case law that says this. If two parties, in the light of day (so to speak), not under duress, come to an agreement, and there is consideration on both sides (in other words, each side gets something), the contract is enforceable. If it were to come to it (and I don't think it should) the courts could order a refund or deliver the kegs. Courts only very rarely consider the 'fairness' as long as consideration exists.

 

[Hoppity]

I stopped in and talked to him in person. He eventually agreed to give me the kegs, but only after I threatened legal action.

And to top this experience off, the "ball lock kegs" were actually converted pin locks (without a release valve), which won't work for my kegerator, as I don't have room for a wider keg. I took them though, since I'll be able to sell them for more than the $40 refund. I can't believe he was treating these as the same as ball lock kegs...

I'm glad I'm done with this now.

Anyone need converted pin lock kegs?

Sure $20 each offered plus shipping & handling to 10573.

 

[Teromous]

You could always go back to his store in a week and tell him that you want to order 10000 hot pink bottle caps. When they arrive and it's time to pay, you just shrug and say that you've changed your mind.

In the meanwhile I would file a BBB complaint.

 

[hunter_le five]

I specifically bought Pepsi kegs (what it said on the receipt).

Ah, I see. then I understand your frustration.

Even if he didn't specify this on the receipt, the kegs simply are not the same, and can not be sold interchangeably as the same product.

Idk, to me "ball lock keg" just means a keg with ball lock posts on top, but I'm not so picky. But I guess since you were originally trying to buy a specific style, of ball lock keg, then he's kinda screwed you once again.

This is entirely contrary to everything I know about contract law (which is a fair amount). I know of nothing in UCC or case law that says this. If two parties, in the light of day (so to speak), not under duress, come to an agreement, and there is consideration on both sides (in other words, each side gets something), the contract is enforceable. If it were to come to it (and I don't think it should) the courts could order a refund or deliver the kegs. Courts only very rarely consider the 'fairness' as long as consideration exists.

This

You could always go back to his store in a week and tell him that you want to order 10000 hot pink bottle caps. When they arrive and it's time to pay, you just shrug and say that you've changed your mind.

Hah!

Though perhaps one should not repay dickishness with more dickery.

In the meanwhile I would file a BBB complaint.

Not sure that would do much. Does anyone pay attention to BBB ratings anymore? Maybe for contractors and such, but I never check a retail store's BBB accreditation before shopping there.

We've had customers threaten to file BBB complaints against us several times in the past (these were illegitimate claims from people just trying to extort freebies out of us). We tell them to go right ahead.

 

[Natdavis777]

You could always go back to his store in a week and tell him that you want to order 10000 hot pink bottle caps. When they arrive and it's time to pay, you just shrug and say that you've changed your mind.

In the meanwhile I would file a BBB complaint.

I really like this idea. If they can be a Richard, so can you.

 

[EcuPirate07]

Didn't read all the other post. But sounds like a "bait and switch" which is illegal in most states. I'm sure that wasn't his intentions but that's what actually happened. It's bad business on his part sometimes coughing up a loss on his end will make more money in the long run. He's running the risk of losing all your business. If he won't do it and just refunds your money, my father always says chalk this up to an expensive learning experience and don't let it happen agai.

Full Definition of BAIT AND SWITCH

1
: a sales tactic in which a customer is attracted by the advertisement of a low-priced item but is then encouraged to buy a higher-priced one
2
: the ploy of offering a person something desirable to gain favor (as political support) then thwarting expectations with something less desirable

 

[EcuPirate07]

Ah, I see. then I understand your frustration.




Idk, to me "ball lock keg" just means a keg with ball lock posts on top, but I'm not so picky. But I guess since you were originally trying to buy a specific style, of ball lock keg, then he's kinda screwed you once again.




This



Hah!

Though perhaps one should not repay dickishness with more dickery.




Not sure that would do much. Does anyone pay attention to BBB ratings anymore? Maybe for contractors and such, but I never check a retail store's BBB accreditation before shopping there.

We've had customers threaten to file BBB complaints against us several times in the past (these were illegitimate claims from people just trying to extort freebies out of us). We tell them to go right ahead.

Actually the BBB is more about the person then the business, when I was in high school I worked at an outdoors store and we rented kayaks. This guy signed paper work that basically said if you break it you buy it, well he broke it and he got the BBB involved and won. He Basically broke a $400 kayak because of inexperience and walked away without any Repercussions.

 

[hunter_le five]

Actually the BBB is more about the person then the business, when I was in high school I worked at an outdoors store and we rented kayaks. This guy signed paper work that basically said if you break it you buy it, well he broke it and he got the BBB involved and won. He Basically broke a $400 kayak because of inexperience and walked away without any Repercussions.

"Won"? Businesses are not required to cooperate with the BBB or do anything the BBB says. The BBB is a collection of private loosely affiliated nonprofit companies, not a government regulatory agency. They have no actual authority. The only thing that could compel a business to obey the BBB is the desire to maintain a positive BBB rating.

 

[EcuPirate07]

"Won"? Businesses are not required to cooperate with the BBB or do anything the BBB says. The BBB is a collection of private loosely affiliated nonprofit companies, not a government regulatory agency. They have no actual authority. The only thing that could compel a business to obey the BBB is the desire to maintain a positive BBB rating.

You are right, I guess more or less the company didn't make him pay so their BBB rating wouldn't go down due to the complaint he filled.

 

[jkovac]

It sucks to get ripped off but how much of your time and energy do you want to give up for that small an amount of money? Getting a lawyer? You can't be serious.

 

[bu_gee]

I think in the eyes of the BBB, this issue would be resolved since the kegs were delivered to the letter of the contract.

What I would do, since it is so conveniently close, is walk in every brew day and buy 3 bottle caps for giving away bottles brewed with supplies from another LHBS. I'd also bust his balls about how he could deliver 2 of the bottle caps later if he needed to and wasn't gonna raise the price.

 

[rockydog101]

I think I will go in and talk to him in person first. I'd much rather avoid court if I can.

See my above post, but yes, I do have it in writing, fortunately.



I hadn't considered the time playing against my favor. Hmmm...



To me, this is about the principle of the matter, not the money.

I'm sorry, but considering a lawsuit over $40 is insane. PM me your PayPal and I'll send you $40. If I were the brew shop owner I would be happy to lose you as a customer.

 

[blackbeer]

take the refund and never do business with him again. he's a dirt bag for not honoring your original deal, whether he lost money or not.

 

[rockydog101]

They do have ball lock posts on them... But I specifically bought Pepsi kegs (what it said on the receipt). Even if he didn't specify this on the receipt, the kegs simply are not the same, and can not be sold interchangeably as the same product.



It's good only so long as I'm not being taken advantage of. I'd never do what he did to me to a friend, thus I don't expect a friend to do that to me.

But, frankly, could you please stop posting in my thread?

Will you sue him if he doesn't stop posting here?

 

[Dutchbier]

I wanted to sue somebody but legally I did not have a keg to stand on. I just read all seven pages here because there is nothing good on TV tonight.

 

[max384]

Will you sue him if he doesn't stop posting here?

You're trolling, and you know it.

 

[jsprinceiii]

I wanted to sue somebody but legally I did not have a keg to stand on. I just read all seven pages here because there is nothing good on TV tonight.

So, could you say your 'Tapped Out' ?

 

[treacheroustexan]

I see exactly where the OP is coming from. But, I would just get your money back from the kegs and let him know that you will know longer be a customer. Maybe he will think twice next time .

 

[Bobby_M]

As soon as I heard that he wanted more money for them, I would have asked for the refund with interest and made sure he knew I would never be back. If a business can't afford $40 to make things right with a customer that has spent and likely would have spent hundreds more is destined to fail anyway.

 

[rockydog101]

You're trolling, and you know it.

Slander. I'll see you in court, buddy.

 

[PGEduardo]

Slander. I'll see you in court, buddy.

You mean libel. Slander is verbal. Trollolol

 

[hunter_le five]

If a business can't afford $40 to make things right with a customer that has spent and likely would have spent hundreds more is destined to fail anyway.

This.

 

[Gavin C]

If the facts are as you say, and I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the version of events you describe, it would seem that this guy must be struggling from a business standpoint. If he cannot see the damage to the business by not honoring the deal it is likely the writing may be on the wall.

I would propose this compromise. Instead of the $40 back, ask him for a sack of base malt and a pound of hops (1 type in a pound bag)

You will benefit. The business will not be out by much if at all and that will be it.

If no luck with this approach, I would take the $40, walk away and never give it another thought. A day in court even if you win, you will be out, time off work, gas to and from the court house, stress of thinking about the situation, wasted effort.

Not worth it. Move on. That would be my thinking. I know it's not the purpose of the thread but thought I would reiterate the voice of reason as others have already done.

 

[Natdavis777]

If no luck with this approach, I would take the $40, walk away and never give it another thought. A day in court even if you win, you will be out, time off work, gas to and from the court house, stress of thinking about the situation, wasted effort.



Not worth it. Move on.

This. Court isnt worth such a minute amount, and in the end, you still loose (regarless of the other party). Dont be one of the "sue happy" parties.... You said you have a LHBS besides this one, so a proclamation of "Ill take my business there, and I will tell the local brewing community about it" will certainly grab their attention.



I can understand court with a given amount in the thousands, or even hundreds, but being < 100$, cut your loss and get what you can. Your business is better deserved and wanted elsewhere.

 

[elkshadow]

Well, he screwed up. He sold you an item he didn't have with the anticipation that he would have it and be able to sell it at the price he sold it to you for.

His recourse should be to suck it up and give you the kegs at a loss.

This is the bottom line. He sold you two kegs. He owes you two kegs. The fact that he lost the initial supplier has no bearing on the terms of sale.

It sounds like you're not going to do business with him anymore so it seems like whatever he does doesn't matter. You're going to get 2 kegs or 40 bucks. It sounds like he would rather give you the 40 bucks. If he gives you the 40 bucks you haven't lost anything.

If you really want the kegs (principle aside, you said in the OP you really didn't *need them) I would ask one more time for the kegs and if he says no here's 40 bucks again, I'd take the 40 and let it go and shop somewhere else.

It sounds like a "who's more stubborn" pissing match at this point.

 

[max384]

I stopped into my bank this morning and did a run on my account for withdrawals to this LHBS for the past two years (as long as they can go back). It came out to close to $2000. I've probably spent close to that much in cash as well.

So this guy threw away my regular business over $40. Terrible business sense...


I was going to write him a letter with this information, but I've decided against it. I'm just going to speak with my wallet.

 

[petey_c]

He might not have realized how much money you've spent there in the last year. That goes back to the other point, not good business sense. You should know someone who comes in your place of business often and always spends money...