Lawyers (or anyone knowledgeable): Legal question concerning LHBS!

[max384]

Over a year ago I bought a three tap kegerator setup from my LHBS. It included four kegs, but he only had two in stock. He said he gets new kegs in all the time, and he'd call me as soon as he got some in. I paid for the entire system up front, including all four kegs. Well, he lost his keg supplier, and didn't get any in, and it's now been over a year. I didn't bust his balls about it, since I bought other kegs from elsewhere for a good price, and I wasn't hurting for kegs. Whenever they came in was fine.

Well, he called today and said they came in. Then he told me that his price had increased, and I owe him an additional $40 for the kegs. I told him that he had to honor the original price that I had already paid for over a year ago. He retorted that he was going to lose money on the kegs if he gave them to me at that price.

We argued back and forth a bit, and he said that he'd just refund me the money that I paid for them. He only charged me $20 per keg (used non-refurbished), which is a fantastic price. His prices for lines, faucets, taps, etc. was high, but his good deal on the kegs is what made the total price a good deal overall. If he refunds me only the kegs, then I'm stuck buying more expensive kegs, and the total price is then too high.

This is obviously bad business practice, considering the amount of money I spend there. It's also ethically deplorable. However, is this illegal?

I did a few Google searches, and couldn't come up with any sources for applicable laws concerning this subject.

My next step will be to take him to small claims court and contact the Better Business Bureau. However, before I go this route, I'd like to know if I have a legal leg to stand on. Obviously contacting a lawyer is the best route, but for $40, it financially doesn't make sense to pay a lawyer. This is really about the principle of the matter.

And to me, the worst part is that I called the owner a friend. We know each other by first names, and I really didn't expect him to do this to me...

Any experts here have any advice for me?


EDIT: I'm withholding the name of the business until after I get a resolution to this matter.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Sounds like something that would be better handled with a refund of the original cost plus a free ingredient kit for your next batch. His intention was good, so was yours, a 3rd party (supplier) messed it up.
$40 is not close to being worth going to small claims court and breaking a friendship.

 

[mucci2k]

I would offer to split the difference and keep the friend, only an extra $10 per keg.

As as side note, I would agree that he should honor his original agreement since that is what you paid for.

 

[max384]

I disagree about his intentions being good.

The friendship doesn't matter now. That's well over after he tried sticking it to me.

As a side note, there is also another LHBS less than 20 minutes from my house, so I don't need him as a LHBS.

 

[colorolo]

If he refunds you the money that you paid him, you really have no "damages" to speak of (minus minute interest/opportunity costs). Take the money and walk away.

 

[PGEduardo]

If you paid $XX for ABCD, then he is legally obligated to fulfill that purchase. I would demand the two kegs he owes, or tell him that he can purchase everything back for a full refund.

Legally, you can send him demand letters stating your case. After 2 letters and no reasonable offer, then you can file in small claims court where he will lose and have to pay the court costs as well. This is advice given to me by a lawyer, but it may vary by state.

Get as much in writing as possible. Did you email him? This would be ideal. Verbal contracts are the toughest to prove.

 

[mucci2k]

I disagree about his intentions being good.

The friendship doesn't matter now. That's well over after he tried sticking it to me.

As a side note, there is also another LHBS less than 20 minutes from my house, so I don't need him as a LHBS.

If you have another store that close I would get a refund and high tail it over to the other store. Most people are lucky to have one store near them, so keeping it friendly with the only resource around is the only option.

 

[hunter_le five]

I don't disagree that this was a sh!tty thing for him to do. Especially considering the time frame involved, he should just eat the difference himself.

But...

$40 is not close to being worth going to small claims court and breaking a friendship.

...this.

Before I went any further, I would try once more to talk with the guy and try to make him understand my point of view. I understand principle, but I would avoid going to court over this at all costs, even small claims court.

As for legalities, that really depends on the nature of the original agreement. Do you have any documentation? Was it a strictly "verbal" agreement? Were the kegs part of a package deal, or did you buy a kegerator and several kegs at $20 each? etc

 

[LostBoyScout]

I have a pretty limited knowledge of contract law, but I would say that you're on the winning side because when you two entered the contract as depicted by the invoice, he is obliged to supply as per the invoice. Increasing the price or offering to remove the kegs from the 'contract' are likely both breaches of that contract.

Two potential pitfalls are the unreasonable amount of time (which could affect the validity of the contract in the eyes of the law) and whether this change would be considered significant enough to be considered breach of contract, legally.

If you're going to suffer in terms of shopping convenience to boycott this LHBS, I'd try to use that to get them to take the hit on this to keep your business... if they don't agree to that, they're pretty terrible business folks. Since it's not a lot of money on the line, I'd otherwise personally either take the cash back or pay the extra depending if I wanted the kegs, and not give them my business - and steer my friends elsewhere, too.

[edit] replies made while i slowly wrote this renders most of my post pointless

 

[rockydog101]

I can't believe you would consider small claims court over $40. I would rather lose $40 than waste even five minutes on this. Yuck.

 

[max384]

Although, splitting the difference makes some sense financially, I'm unwilling to waver on this. It is about principle now.

If you paid $XX for ABCD, then he is legally obligated to fulfill that purchase. I would demand the two kegs he owes, or tell him that he can purchase everything back for a full refund.

Legally, you can send him demand letters stating your case. After 2 letters and no reasonable offer, then you can file in small claims court where he will lose and have to pay the court costs as well. This is advice given to me by a lawyer, but it may vary by state.

Get as much in writing as possible. Did you email him? This would be ideal. Verbal contracts are the toughest to prove.

Unfortunately, I can't even demand he purchase everything back, as I've upgraded faucets to Perlicks, and sold the originals. Though, this may make for a good bargaining tactic... But if he agrees to this, then I'm screwed when I can't give him the parts back.

I still have the original sales receipt, and I paid with a debit card, so I have bank statements as well. Emailing him to get it in writing is good advice, thank you.

If you have another store that close I would get a refund and high tail it over to the other store. Most people are lucky to have one store near them, so keeping it friendly with the only resource around is the only option.

I am extremely lucky in this regard. I have four LHBS stores within a 30 minute drive, double that amount within an hour drive. This guy is closest to me (within walking distance), but not doing business with him won't be a hardship to me. There is more supply than their is demand around here. You'd think this business owner would recognize this fact as well...

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I'm not a lawyer, but I am in insurance. This doesn't have anything to do with insurance, but every day I see situations where two parties get excited over something that no one intended to happen, and they get entrenched in their positions. Result: very hard feelings over something that probably could have been resolved over a beer or two, and words said in anger that are difficult to step away from later.

According to what you wrote, you guys had a good business relationship in the past. That good relationship led to you getting good deals, and to this deal, which went bad. Evidently you had nothing in writing, and evidently this was something that really wasn't the fault of either of you. You can't expect him to eat the whole thing, over something that he had no control over. Likewise, he can't expect you to eat the whole thing, either. Neither of you seems to have much of a legal leg to stand on.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to offer to split the difference, as mucci2k suggests, and then after that either use a different LHBS (if you have one available) or make the best peace with him that you can. (if you have no other LHBS available). Meeting him in the middle is a very small price to pay to put the matter behind you.

 

[max384]

I don't disagree that this was a sh!tty thing for him to do. Especially considering the time frame involved, he should just eat the difference himself.

But...



...this.

Before I went any further, I would try once more to talk with the guy and try to make him understand my point of view. I understand principle, but I would avoid going to court over this at all costs, even small claims court.

As for legalities, that really depends on the nature of the original agreement. Do you have any documentation? Was it a strictly "verbal" agreement? Were the kegs part of a package deal, or did you buy a kegerator and several kegs at $20 each? etc

I think I will go in and talk to him in person first. I'd much rather avoid court if I can.

See my above post, but yes, I do have it in writing, fortunately.

I have a pretty limited knowledge of contract law, but I would say that you're on the winning side because when you two entered the contract as depicted by the invoice, he is obliged to supply as per the invoice. Increasing the price or offering to remove the kegs from the 'contract' are likely both breaches of that contract.

Two potential pitfalls are the unreasonable amount of time (which could affect the validity of the contract in the eyes of the law) and whether this change would be considered significant enough to be considered breach of contract, legally.

If you're going to suffer in terms of shopping convenience to boycott this LHBS, I'd try to use that to get them to take the hit on this to keep your business... if they don't agree to that, they're pretty terrible business folks. Since it's not a lot of money on the line, I'd otherwise personally either take the cash back or pay the extra depending if I wanted the kegs, and not give them my business - and steer my friends elsewhere, too.

[edit] replies made while i slowly wrote this renders most of my post pointless

I hadn't considered the time playing against my favor. Hmmm...

I can't believe you would consider small claims court over $40. I would rather lose $40 than waste even five minutes on this. Yuck.

To me, this is about the principle of the matter, not the money.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, he screwed up. He sold you an item he didn't have with the anticipation that he would have it and be able to sell it at the price he sold it to you for.

His recourse should be to suck it up and give you the kegs at a loss.

That said, if it were me, I'd take the refund and walk away. You might be able to press him into getting you the kegs, or not, but IMO it's not worth the hassle. Give him a little grief for weaseling out of the deal he made out of his own free will, and let Karma do it's thing.

 

[PGEduardo]

It is about principle now.



Unfortunately, I can't even demand he purchase everything back, as I've upgraded faucets to Perlicks, and sold the originals. Though, this may make for a good bargaining tactic... But if he agrees to this, then I'm screwed when I can't give him the parts back.

I'm a man of principle myself - totally understand. All you have to do is sell everything that you can back minus the money you got by selling them. It is his fault that this stretched out over a year. You had every reason to believe he would eventually honor the deal. Make him honor the deal or buy it all back (minus sold components).

 

[Gameface]

You keep saying it's about the principle of the thing. I think what you mean is that it's about your emotions regarding this thing.

You want to lash out because you're unhappy? Go for it.

It's not the smart thing to do. It's not going to get you anywhere. It's going to take time and effort. But hey, maybe at the end of it you'll feel better, or maybe not. Sounds like a boring ride if you ask me.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

He promised something, changed his mind and didn't deliver without changing the terms. I'd write him a formal letter and go to social media and make it known. I would leave the money on the table and make him feel terrible. Go to the other lhbs and tell all your friends.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I'm a man of principle as well, and I am sure that the LHBS guy is, too, and so on. We all are people of principle. But there is a time to be reasonable, and even you are admitting that you're not being reasonable. Also, a man of principle would be able to acknowledge when the other party is trying to work something out that is not perfect, but at least reasonable and in good faith.....

You have 3 other LHBSs, and I'm willing to bet that he knows it. In fact, I am willing to bet that he communicates with them on a regular basis?

You know what they say - when you go out seeking revenge, be sure to dig two graves....

 

[hunter_le five]

....he is obliged to supply as per the invoice.

Not necessarily. Have you never ordered something, later found out it was out of stock, and then been issued a refund? Happens all the time.

Increasing the price or offering to remove the kegs from the 'contract' are likely both breaches of that contract.

I would agree however that subsequently raising the price is absolutely verboten.

And the fact that he DOES have the kegs NOW and is only NOW trying to issue a refund might negate my previous point. If he had tried to do so months ago I would understand, but offering a refund AFTER he has finally restocked AND tried to increase the price is wrong wrong wrong.

 

[max384]

Well, he screwed up. He sold you an item he didn't have with the anticipation that he would have it and be able to sell it at the price he sold it to you for.

His recourse should be to suck it up and give you the kegs at a loss.

That said, if it were me, I'd take the refund and walk away. You might be able to press him into getting you the kegs, or not, but IMO it's not worth the hassle. Give him a little grief for weaseling out of the deal he made out of his own free will, and let Karma do it's thing.

I'm a stubborn bastard at times. When I know I'm right, I dig my heels in...

I'm a man of principle myself - totally understand. All you have to do is sell everything that you can back minus the money you got by selling them. It is his fault that this stretched out over a year. You had every reason to believe he would eventually honor the deal. Make him honor the deal or buy it all back (minus sold components).

 

[stpug]

Before I went any further, I would try once more to talk with the guy and try to make him understand my point of view.

^This, and if he didn't/wouldn't/couldn't understand then I would l let him know I'm walking away for good. I'd take the loss.

 

[mdbrewer1]

That's a pretty rotten thing he's trying to pull. Not only did you let it slide for an extra year, but he had the extra money in his pocket the whole time and not you. Unfortunately, it sounds like he's made up his mind. I doubt any further communication is going to change it. That is definitely not the kind of person I would continue doing business with.

He's clearly in the wrong here, but my wife always points out there is a time cost involved with everything I choose to do/not do. How much do you value your time? How many hours do you think it will take to resolve this, even under the best case scenario? I've found that I'm much happier in the long run when I just walk away from someone/something like this even though I'm in the right.

When I'm old and gray, I doubt I'd look back fondly on the time I spent arguing with some sleazy LBHS owner, but I'd probably pay $40 to spend all those extra hours with friends/loved ones.

 

[max384]

You keep saying it's about the principle of the thing. I think what you mean is that it's about your emotions regarding this thing.

You want to lash out because you're unhappy? Go for it.

It's not the smart thing to do. It's not going to get you anywhere. It's going to take time and effort. But hey, maybe at the end of it you'll feel better, or maybe not. Sounds like a boring ride if you ask me.

Emotions and principle are not mutually exclusive.

 

[LandoLincoln]

I disagree about his intentions being good.

The friendship doesn't matter now. That's well over after he tried sticking it to me.

As a side note, there is also another LHBS less than 20 minutes from my house, so I don't need him as a LHBS.

If that's the case, I'd lay it on the line for him.

"Look. You sold me these kegs over a year ago with the understanding that once you got the kegs, I'd get them for the money I fronted you. It's been over A YEAR. I've been plenty patient. And now, after a freaking YEAR, you want me to pay MORE MONEY because your new supplier is costing you more? Either you give me the kegs for the price I already paid A YEAR AGO or you give me the money I gave you A YEAR AGO and you'll never see me again. Is losing my business worth the forty bucks? You tell me."

That's just bad business. He owes you the kegs for the price you paid or he owes you the money back. He does not deserve any more money.

 

[Roadliner]

I get the priciple thing.. but you have to pick your battles. It's been a year.. You've already upgraded everything and moved on from those parts.

I'd say the offer to split the differrence benefits you both. You get to keep walking to a store. he doesn't lose out completely. If he can't accept this then yeah.. get the refund and tell him he's lost the business for good over not being honorable with his business process.

 

[max384]

He promised something, changed his mind and didn't deliver without changing the terms. I'd write him a formal letter and go to social media and make it known. I would leave the money on the table and make him feel terrible. Go to the other lhbs and tell all your friends.

I would rather take this route than take the refund honestly...

I'm a man of principle as well, and I am sure that the LHBS guy is, too, and so on. We all are people of principle. But there is a time to be reasonable, and even you are admitting that you're not being reasonable.

You have 3 other LHBSs, and I'm willing to bet that he knows it. In fact, I am willing to bet that he communicates with them on a regular basis?

You know what they say - when you go out seeking revenge, be sure to dig two graves....

I NEVER said I was being unreasonable. Not waivering is NOT the same as being unreasonable.

 

[max384]

Hey guys, thanks for all the advice... Even the advice I don't want to hear!

Sorry if I don't reply to each post... there were more replies in a short amount of time than I was expecting...

 

[sboyajian]

Don't offer to return the items, since you do not have the items to return.

However, if you have a receipt that states the price and what it includes, he is legally obligated to honor that price for those parts. An increase in vendor cost is not your problem. If he didn't have all the parts he should have discounted the total price based on the missing parts and offered to let you buy those parts separately in the future.

I wouldn't take him to small claims. If he is not willing to honor the price, I would simply tell him that his refusal to do so, will result in a loss of your business and you will inform anyone you know who also shops there.

 

[Homercidal]

You have several stores nearby. It could be that he is feeling a financial strain from the oversupply. Maybe he can't justify the loss on this deal against his bottom line.

Not your fault, but as a way of understanding his side, see if there is a GOOD reason he doesn't want to lose anything on the deal.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Over a year ago I bought a three tap kegerator setup from my LHBS. It included four kegs, but he only had two in stock. He said he gets new kegs in all the time, and he'd call me as soon as he got some in. I paid for the entire system up front, including all four kegs. Well, he lost his keg supplier, and didn't get any in, and it's now been over a year. I didn't bust his balls about it, since I bought other kegs from elsewhere for a good price, and I wasn't hurting for kegs. Whenever they came in was fine.

Well, he called today and said they came in. Then he told me that his price had increased, and I owe him an additional $40 for the kegs. I told him that he had to honor the original price that I had already paid for over a year ago. He retorted that he was going to lose money on the kegs if he gave them to me at that price.

We argued back and forth a bit, and he said that he'd just refund me the money that I paid for them. He only charged me $20 per keg (used non-refurbished), which is a fantastic price. His prices for lines, faucets, taps, etc. was high, but his good deal on the kegs is what made the total price a good deal overall. If he refunds me only the kegs, then I'm stuck buying more expensive kegs, and the total price is then too high.

This is obviously bad business practice, considering the amount of money I spend there. It's also ethically deplorable. However, is this illegal?
I did a few Google searches, and couldn't come up with any sources for applicable laws concerning this subject.

My next step will be to take him to small claims court and contact the Better Business Bureau. However, before I go this route, I'd like to know if I have a legal leg to stand on. Obviously contacting a lawyer is the best route, but for $40, it financially doesn't make sense to pay a lawyer. This is really about the principle of the matter.

And to me, the worst part is that I called the owner a friend. We know each other by first names, and I really didn't expect him to do this to me...

I disagree about his intentions being good.

The friendship doesn't matter now. That's well over after he tried sticking it to me.
As a side note, there is also another LHBS less than 20 minutes from my house, so I don't need him as a LHBS.

I'm a stubborn bastard at times. When I know I'm right, I dig my heels in...

I would rather take this route than take the refund honestly...

I NEVER said I was being unreasonable. Not waivering is NOT the same as being unreasonable.

Are you sure?

The choice is up to you, but as I said, I literally see this day after day. You are hurt (for lack of a better word) at the betrayal (for lack of a better word) of what you thought was a friendship. He's trying to stay in business, and won't be in business long if he sells at a loss to every customer who regrets their earlier decisions.

Obviously, we are only getting one side of the story here, but you are clearly emotional about it, and with good reason. But then again, are youn taking into account your own responsibility in this (paying for all up front, letting it go for a year, among other things?). Only you can answer that.

Do what you wish, but I am telling you that I see indicators in your posts that I see every day at work. In my experience, unintended consequences have a way of blind-siding people, and they often wish that they would have tempered their rash words and deeds with wisdom and reasonable thought.

Having said all of the above, I know exactly how you feel, and my own reaction would probably be very similar. In fact, my knowing that is probably the main reason that I am giving you the advice that I am.

Either way, taking my own advice - I'm out. Good luck ~

 

[NickTheGreat]

If the prices of the kegs had dropped in the year, would he be offering you a refund???

Sounds like a richard to me. I would insist on my kegs, but likely end up settling for the refund.

And I would make my story very well known. Social media, my homebrewing friends or clubs, etc.

 

[midfielder5]

CA lawyer here. YMMV in your state. The advice here is worth what you paid me


You are pissed, and rightfully so.

I would take the refund money and/or ask for the next few grain recipies free/discounted.. but $40/used-refurb keg is still a good deal btw.

In small claims, here you have a $30 filing fee, then hire someone (~$75) or get a buddy-- to formally serve him with the papers [you can't do it], the miss a half day of work to attend the hearing, etc. If you get a judgment, then you have to collect - which is more time, expense and not guaranteed.
So you'd be out another $100+ before getting your $40.

cheers!

 

[j1n]

Looks like he lost a regular customer. His loss. take the refund and shop else where. I would just leave a bad review online.

 

[brick_haus]

Dont let this guy get your panties in a twist. Pay the $40 or get your refund and then move on. Life is too short...whats that saying? rdw....

 

[LandoLincoln]

The choice is up to you, but as I said, I literally see this day after day. You are hurt (for lack of a better word) at the betrayal (for lack of a better word) of what you thought was a friendship. He's trying to stay in business, and won't be in business long if he sells at a loss to every customer who regrets their earlier decisions.

The early decision to give this guy money for kegs that took a year to show up? And then when they finally did show up, they suddenly cost more money than what the owner and customer originally agreed to?

I would regret that decision too. Anybody in their right mind would regret that decision.

Imagine going to the window at a fast food restaurant, and the person at the window takes your money and says, "please pull up to the front door and we'll bring your food out to you when it's done cooking." And so you do and then ONE YEAR LATER somebody comes out of the front door and says, "your food is done cooking, but...uh...beef prices have really gone up in the past year, so...we'll need an extra dollar for this burger we sold you. A year ago. Sorry for the wait."

 

[TheHopfather]

Imagine going to the window at a fast food restaurant, and the person at the window takes your money and says, "please pull up to the front door and we'll bring your food out to you when it's done cooking." And so you do and then ONE YEAR LATER somebody comes out of the front door and says, "your food is done cooking, but...uh...beef prices have really gone up in the past year, so...we'll need an extra dollar for this burger we sold you. A year ago. Sorry for the wait."

No one made the OP go for the deal in the first place. I wouldn't go to a fast food place and pay full price for half a meal in the hopes the rest would show up at some point. I also wouldn't wait a year to get the thing I'd paid for. The OP got a bad deal, crappy things happen sometimes. The guy offered a refund, seem fair to me. To even be talking about court over $40 and a broken promise is just insane to me. Life is too short, take the refund, move on with your life. Sheesh.

 

[3greubs4]

Legally this is a toss up. Someone can typically get out of a contract if they have had a substantial change in position between when the bargain was made and the breach. If he lost his supplier for reasons that were not his fault he would likely win in court. Courts are very hesitant to enforce contracts that force one side to sell at a loss. It also plays against you that you have no damages becuase he is offering a refund.

On a side note I believe morally you're the one in the wrong here. You made a mutually benefitial bargain. Unforunately because of a third party the other side would lose money if you went through with the deal. Either way one side is getting screwed for a 3rd party's mistake. The only way nobody gets screwed is a refund which is exactly what he offered. It's not like you're dealing with Walmart who can afford to absorb losses like this. Do the the right thing and either meet in the middle or take the refund.

 

[johngaltsmotor]

In this day an age social media is the court of public opinion. If you're all about the principle then instead of spending $100+ in court costs to get your $40 ask him if it makes good business sense for him to honor his purchase agreement and lose $40 or consider it a marketing expense to prevent poor press. (Although as I write that it sounds more like extortion, even though you're only trying to get what was agreed to under no duress on either party).

 

[passedpawn]

Take the refund and let it go. I think that's reasonable.

The problems here: vendor took money for something he didn't have in stock, left you hanging for a year, expected you to now pay more. Those things point to a pretty poor way to run a business. If you want that vendor to get his comeuppance, don't worry it's coming. You reap what you sow in this world.

 

[masaba]

If you want to sue someone out of principle go after Comcast. If you want to just move on with your life, just take the money or try to talk to him once more, maybe split the difference, as people have said.