Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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melville said:
I don't know why I have cascade stuck in my head (if you can't tell — I've been trying to get a hop order together the past few days), but as I posted above Haze seems straightforward given Tree House's previous language:

"a ton of peach on the nose, with complimentary notes of orange and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit" & "peach quickly followed by a bounty of tropical fruit" & "We smell a ton of orange on the nose, with complimentary notes of peach and passionfruit. The flavor is similar with a blast of citrus fruit & orange quickly followed by spicy grapefruit, and earthy dankness"

You see passion fruit, you know Citra. You see peach/orange, it seems likely Amarillo. Earth dankness equals Columbus. Spicy grapefruit ... Cascade or Chinook. I've never used Cascade, but I have used Chinook which also bends Pine (ala Sap). Don't have Pine down in my notes for Haze.

Also, I love Haze.
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I've also seen Nate's post on twitter and it looks like he loves Simco, Amarillo and Nelson. I recently brewed a 50/50 of Galaxy and Amarillo and its awesome. Might try the 80% next time and add some Simco for a "Green" IPA. Good detective work!
 
Another NEIPA thread on this forum hints that Lallemand/Danstar is about to publicly release their LalBrew New England Ale yeast.
 
thehaze said:
I have a question for those which have used CaraPils ( Weyermann Carafoam in the US ) at more than 10%:

Do you feel like it helped the final product? Would you use it in other styles? Would CaraPils work at say 20% in a grain bill for NEIPAs?
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I used 23% carafoam and rahr 2 row and feel as though I am lacking depth (all Galaxy fwiw), although it makes for a nice creamy head when keg conditioned.

I upped the anti on my Sap attempt using Carafoam and Carared for a whopping 27% of my grain bill. Will report back in a couple weeks.
 
To add a little malt backbone I do a percentage of Golden Promise. It’s way more interesting and flavorful than 2-row but not as off putting as say MO is in light hoppy beers. Most of my 5.5-6% hoppy beers have been something like:

8# GP
3# Weyermann Pils
1.5# Carafoam
3-4oz C40

I haven’t really messed with that ratio as I’ve been pretty happy with it. Although if I was to brew something north of 7% (which I rarely do) I would probably switch the Pils and GP ratios.

Anyone used Carahell much? Seems to be in that C10-C15 range but not nearly as sweet.
 
couchsending said:
The acidity of the S-04 would help to balance out that high gravity so it’s not as sweet. 1318 finishing that high would be perceived as a lot sweeter.
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Yeah, I think you're right. I'm sure the WB-06 munches down quite a bit too. Fermentis calls it out as the highest attenuator of this core trio.

The last few NEIPAs I did with 1318 finished in the 1.011-1.013 range, and I perceived them all to be sweeter than my attempt with this dry yeast combo. They were good to my tastes though, I wouldn't have called them too sweet, not cloying or anything. I did do one with 1968 that I thought was too sweet.
 
TheHairyHop said:
Aslin makes some beers that are peach bombs. I would like to replicate that profile about as much as TH's
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They say the peachy aspect of their beers is directly related to their yeast. I would suspect it’s Conan or maybe 1469. To get that much peach from Conan try doing what Kimmich recommends and pitch it at .4mil/ml/*plato and ferment at 68 then bump to 72. Should be maximum peach.
 
Aslin experiments with a variety of strains. Their “house” yeast is a proprietary blend including the usual suspects—London III, Conan, S-04. They also work in Sacch Trois on occasion.
 
Been reading this review of wheat beer yeasts. It's not the only one I've seen to have a bit of a downer on WB-06 for wheat beers. Sadly their Danstar Munich didn't work (and it seems it's also not popular), and they didn't review Mangrove Jacks M20 Bavarian Wheat (which seems quite popular as a dry general wheat beer yeast), but they do like Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan, the benchmark German WB yeast which is also available in dry form as Danstar Munich Classic (as opposed to Danstar Munich). Might be one to try?

I know it's getting away from the whole point of the dry yeasts, but Wyeast 1010 American Wheat and 3638 Bavarian Wheat both seem interesting, the former giving "huge" fruity and lemon notes, the latter a "lot" of fruit (maybe lychee/litchi) and bubblegum.

Wyeast 3333 German Wheat was rather more subtle but complex than the others.

As I posted on the main NEIPA thread I've been doing some reading about wheat beers and was wondering if some of the techniques to bump up ester production might be relevant to NEIPAs, like a maltase rest?
 
The_Dirty_Spring said:
Aslin experiments with a variety of strains. Their “house” yeast is a proprietary blend including the usual suspects—London III, Conan, S-04. They also work in Sacch Trois on occasion.
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I'm not implying skepticism, but where did you get this info? Last I checked, the only dirt I could get on Aslin was some hop and malt combos that they describe on Instagram
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Been reading this review of wheat beer yeasts. It's not the only one I've seen to have a bit of a downer on WB-06 for wheat beers. Sadly their Danstar Munich didn't work (and it seems it's also not popular), and they didn't review Mangrove Jacks M20 Bavarian Wheat (which seems quite popular as a dry general wheat beer yeast), but they do like Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan, the benchmark German WB yeast which is also available in dry form as Danstar Munich Classic (as opposed to Danstar Munich). Might be one to try?

I know it's getting away from the whole point of the dry yeasts, but Wyeast 1010 American Wheat and 3638 Bavarian Wheat both seem interesting, the former giving "huge" fruity and lemon notes, the latter a "lot" of fruit (maybe lychee/litchi) and bubblegum.

Wyeast 3333 German Wheat was rather more subtle but complex than the others.

As I posted on the main NEIPA thread I've been doing some reading about wheat beers and was wondering if some of the techniques to bump up ester production might be relevant to NEIPAs, like a maltase rest?
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A blend of 1318, 3638, and 3522 sounds like the ultimate blend — but man that's $$$ every beer.
 
TheHairyHop said:
I'm not implying skepticism, but where did you get this info? Last I checked, the only dirt I could get on Aslin was some hop and malt combos that they describe on Instagram
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Also wondering this. FWIW I assume it’s Conan + something that isn’t 1318.

But yeh where’d you get that info?
 
melville said:
A blend of 1318, 3638, and 3522 sounds like the ultimate blend — but man that's $$$ every beer.
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It's an upfront cost, but if you bank them then it becomes cheaper than fresh dry yeast after a couple of brews.

I must admit it was 1010 and 3333 that caught my eye after that review, but I'm going to have a play with M20 and Munich Classic first, and may play around with maltase rests and maybe supplementing with leucine.
 
The_Dirty_Spring said:
I emailed and they replied. I know, novel idea, right?
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eh, I shot them a polite email and asked them at the tap room and all I got were tight lips. I'm not a stranger to the random brewery email. It's possible that the cat got out of the bag, so now they care a little less. At any rate, I'm glad you got some info from them
 
TheHairyHop said:
eh, I shot them a polite email and asked them at the tap room and all I got were tight lips. I'm not a stranger to the random brewery email. It's possible that the cat got out of the bag, so now they care a little less. At any rate, I'm glad you got some info from them
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Same, that’s why I asked! Great info if that’s the case.
 
couchsending said:
They say the peachy aspect of their beers is directly related to their yeast. I would suspect it’s Conan or maybe 1469. To get that much peach from Conan try doing what Kimmich recommends and pitch it at .4mil/ml/*plato and ferment at 68 then bump to 72. Should be maximum peach.
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have you personally done that profile?
 
I haven't. I pitched at what I thought was close to .6 based on the age of the yeast and the size of the starter on Beersmith. So I would assume it's close but really have no way of telling. I followed the exact temp schedule he recommended as well. When ferm was done, drop to 45 for two days, dump yeast, DH for I think it was 5 days then cold age (I thought I remember hearing him say 40*) for two weeks. Beer came out pretty good, don't remember if it was overly peachy. It was a pretty low ABV beer.
 
Holy cow that is a low pitch rate! Should definitely promote esterfication, among other things. Did he actually recommend this (i.e. got a link?)?
 
It’s in Mitch Steele’s IPA book in the recipe for El Jefe. There’s so much detailed info I would assume it came from the source.
 
Was thinking last night about all this stuff, I know it can drive you nuts sometimes. Would there be a difference in time for grain to glass between a homebrew scale compared to a commercial scale?
 
couchsending said:
It’s in Mitch Steele’s IPA book in the recipe for El Jefe. There’s so much detailed info I would assume it came from the source.
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Awesome - I will definitely check it out. Maybe pitching that low avoid the production of the weird and sometimes overwhelming toasted/peanutty flavor I get from beers fermented with Conan. I love the peach but I had to stop using Conan/Vermont Ale due to that flavor (I think I might be overly sensitive to it, but I can usually tell when a beer is fermented with this strain)
 
Just read through most of this thread and am pretty excited to try this yeast combo but I do have a quick (hopefully) question. Is there a consensus on the pitch timing? Do I just pitch all at once or what have you guys determined to be the best if there is such a thing. I guess same goes for the ratio...I have seen several experiments but not as much posts about results. Any tips? Thanks!
 
Also OT, a flaked oats or malted oats question:
Anyone go over 20%, say 40% and what effect did it have in appearance/mouthfeel.
I'll anecdotally note this last beer was 20/20 oat/white wheat and it wasn't really any different than 20% carafoam, certainly not any more hazy.
 
melville said:
Also OT, a flaked oats or malted oats question:
Anyone go over 20%, say 40% and what effect did it have in appearance/mouthfeel.
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kind of worthless, considering the mess it made of the mash. to me, oats dont create body so much as a kind of lubricating, mouth coating feeling. not good. have never gone that high with oats again. (40% IIRC)

as to appearance i couldnt say, it was a pretty dark beer.

back to mouthfeel, im not sure how to differentiate between the two, but there's the feeling of body we all know, and then there's something i guess you might call "viscous" or mouth-coating. not a fan of it. similar thing happened when i went 50% rye (flaked/malted). very thick and viscous. flavors were good but drinking it was kinda weird.

if you've ever been plugged up and had to drink some metamucil, psyllium husk, insoluble fiber, etc, then the feeling is very similar.

its not bad per se, but just really weird.
 
SanPancho said:
kind of worthless, considering the mess it made of the mash. to me, oats dont create body so much as a kind of lubricating, mouth coating feeling. not good. have never gone that high with oats again. (40% IIRC)



as to appearance i couldnt say, it was a pretty dark beer.



back to mouthfeel, im not sure how to differentiate between the two, but there's the feeling of body we all know, and then there's something i guess you might call "viscous" or mouth-coating. not a fan of it. similar thing happened when i went 50% rye (flaked/malted). very thick and viscous. flavors were good but drinking it was kinda weird.



if you've ever been plugged up and had to drink some metamucil, psyllium husk, insoluble fiber, etc, then the feeling is very similar.



its not bad per se, but just really weird.
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It's the high beta-glucan content in rye and oats. If you've ever made rye bread you'll know the feeling of it on your hands. Definitely a sort of viscous/slimy body in high amounts.
 
dbrulet said:
Just read through most of this thread and am pretty excited to try this yeast combo but I do have a quick (hopefully) question. Is there a consensus on the pitch timing? Do I just pitch all at once or what have you guys determined to be the best if there is such a thing. I guess same goes for the ratio...I have seen several experiments but not as much posts about results. Any tips? Thanks!
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Not really sure if there is an overall consensus, although someone correct me if I'm wrong. One thing that seems to be coming up a lot is to limit the WB-06. Some people, myself included, have had more phenolic character than desired with WB-06 as low as 7%. I think people have had good results taking the T-58 up much higher than that. I am planning on trying 10% T-58 and 3% WB-06 on my next attempt. Also, fwiw I used 2 g CBC-1 in 5 gal to naturally carb. Seems like the carb methods have kind of run the gamut with some people reporting overcarbing while keg conditioning with the CBC-1, again myself included. Planning on cutting my primer down next time.
 
So update on my attempt. Holy crap, I have never had a beer change this fast post kegging/bottling. Kegged on October 7th, carbed up at room temp for 12 days. At kegging time and the first couple of weeks in the keg there was a lot of clove. Not overwhelming, but enough that I was disappointed in the beer. That clove is pretty much gone now. What's left is a super juicy beer that has a lot of orange character. It's still a little too tart, although even that has faded some. There's a good amount of breadiness now that didn't come through as much before. The body is not as full as a TH beer but it's definitely pretty big.

But I am totally astonished at how much this beer changed in the last week or so. Still, I think I liked my attempts with 1318 better than this one, if only because I think the residual sweetness 1318 leaves works really well with the style. But I am excited to try this again with tweaks to the grist to compensate for that. Plus some tweaks to the yeast ratios.
 
Were you using CBC-1 with the 1318? If not, then maybe the conditioning yeast was chewing up too much of your sugars?

On oats - I'm not sure if I'm a super-taster, but I do get a real porridge taste from many beers made with oats. But not all of them, even the same beer so I think part of it is a conditioning thing. But with this style, you don't really want to be leaving it a few weeks waiting for the porridge to go, and losing your hops at the same time. It's interesting that a number of NEIPA specialists seem to be moving away from using oats, no matter that some people claim they're canonical for the style.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Were you using CBC-1 with the 1318? If not, then maybe the conditioning yeast was chewing up too much of your sugars?
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I was using CBC-1 with the core trio. 11.5 g S-04, 1 g WB-06 and 0.9 g T-58 in a 5 gal batch, 6 gal into primary. That comes out to like 85.8/7.5/6.8% S-04/WB-06/T-58. Then 2 g CBC-1 for conditioning.

But I believe the CBC-1 is not supposed to be very attenuative. I was thinking the culprit for the low residual sweetness was the WB-06. According to the Fermentis data sheet it's much more attenuative than the other yeasts, including the CBC-1.

I would attach the data sheets but it won't let me attach files right now.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Were you using CBC-1 with the 1318? If not, then maybe the conditioning yeast was chewing up too much of your sugars?
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Oh, did you mean with my earlier attempts? No, I never did the CBC-1 thing before using the trio. But this batch with the trio had really low residual sweetness even at kegging time before I added the CBC-1.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
So update on my attempt. Holy crap, I have never had a beer change this fast post kegging/bottling. Kegged on October 7th, carbed up at room temp for 12 days. At kegging time and the first couple of weeks in the keg there was a lot of clove. Not overwhelming, but enough that I was disappointed in the beer. That clove is pretty much gone now. What's left is a super juicy beer that has a lot of orange character. It's still a little too tart, although even that has faded some. There's a good amount of breadiness now that didn't come through as much before. The body is not as full as a TH beer but it's definitely pretty big.

But I am totally astonished at how much this beer changed in the last week or so. Still, I think I liked my attempts with 1318 better than this one, if only because I think the residual sweetness 1318 leaves works really well with the style. But I am excited to try this again with tweaks to the grist to compensate for that. Plus some tweaks to the yeast ratios.
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Pretty much my same consensus. I'm brewing tomorrow and have a 1318 starter going. I wonder if it would be worth sprinkling a pinch of T-58 and WB06 in tomorrow.
With Treehouse's move a half hour closer to me it's not a bad drive to get the real stuff.
I've been out there three weeks in a row and have been stocking up my fridge. I have Julius from this week, last week and a few weeks ago. There is a huge noticeable difference. The fresh stuff really is a juice bomb. I really noticed this in this weeks Green. Probably the juiciest I've ever tasted. It's almost not worth stockpiling.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
Oh, did you mean with my earlier attempts? No, I never did the CBC-1 thing before using the trio. But this batch with the trio had really low residual sweetness even at kegging time before I added the CBC-1.
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Obviously the WB-06 will dry things out, I was just wondering if the sweetness of the 1318 batch came from simple sugars that CBC-1 could chew up, or something more complex.

Thought - do we know if WB-06 is vulnerable to killer factors? If so, then just add the CBC-1 when the gravity is 1014 or whatever, and let CBC-1 take out the WB-06 before it can chew up all the sugar? Would be consistent with not letting things hang around too long.

Or even a split batch - take off a pint or so of wort (or even just make up a pint of 1050 extract, no hops or anything) and ferment it with WB-06, do a bsic rack and then add it to the main batch.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
So update on my attempt. Holy crap, I have never had a beer change this fast post kegging/bottling. Kegged on October 7th, carbed up at room temp for 12 days. At kegging time and the first couple of weeks in the keg there was a lot of clove. Not overwhelming, but enough that I was disappointed in the beer. That clove is pretty much gone now. What's left is a super juicy beer that has a lot of orange character. It's still a little too tart, although even that has faded some. There's a good amount of breadiness now that didn't come through as much before. The body is not as full as a TH beer but it's definitely pretty big.

But I am totally astonished at how much this beer changed in the last week or so. Still, I think I liked my attempts with 1318 better than this one, if only because I think the residual sweetness 1318 leaves works really well with the style. But I am excited to try this again with tweaks to the grist to compensate for that. Plus some tweaks to the yeast ratios.
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Refresh us... what yeast blend did you use that you are commenting on? Please be as specific as to the ratios and amounts as possible :)
 
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