Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[melville]

Rahr 2 row and carafoam?

with 5% Vienna and 3% C10, yes.

 

[couchsending]

Finally got my hands on some fresh J as well some Tornado and Eureka with Mosaic. Personally I get the twang and tartness at the very end of these beers. I think however it’s balanced very well by the high FG. The beers I’ve made and have had that use 1318 and finish thy high are way to sweet for my palate and don’t really resemble TH beers.

 

[melville]

Finally got my hands on some fresh J as well some Tornado and Eureka with Mosaic. Personally I get the twang and tartness at the very end of these beers. I think however it’s balanced very well by the high FG. The beers I’ve made and have had that use 1318 and finish thy high are way to sweet my palate and don’t really resemble TH beers.

This is exactly how I feel. You want these beers to be FG 1.014+ so that twang doesn't turn tart. If you've played w/ these yeasts, you'll immediately recognize what's happening — in the finish of these beers.

(of course the issue is this trio attenuates like crazy).

 

[melville]

And again, I don't find them uniquely ester driven and I don't pick up on any real distinguishing malt character, but you do notice something right at the end of every core beer.

 

[thehaze]

More random thoughts.
1. Maybe (amongst other reasons) they ferment at low temps in an effort to reduce the twang/tart thing that S-04 brings.
2. Use of a "money" hop — a hop they use throughout their core beers that helps add signature flavor that we might confuse with esters. Was listening to a podcast where the brewer of (greenpoint, LIC, or Equilibrium couldn't tell whom) said they use Cascade in just about every beer. (We know Nate is partial to Warrior extract for bittering and flavor additions on the hots side for example).
3. Julius: "mango, peach, passionfruit, and a melange of citrus juice" Mango, peach, and passionfruit are consistent with other Tree House descriptions that include Citra and Amarillo. Cascade=citrus. (Used to have an all Cascade IPA. Julius was All Citra IPA. Amarillo is one of Nate's faves.)
4. Speaking of extract, started using that like 7 beers ago — huge improvement to the bitterness profile of my beers, wish I could find other hop varieties though.

I think you might be on to something with your 1st point. S-04, although very good in general, it does seem to put out a sort of nagging taste, at least for me, in hoppy beers.

I've noticed that when fermented warm ( above 20C going up to 22-23C ), it does seem to leave a sort of mouth twisting flavour, which seems to underline the bitterness. I don't think I would call it twangy, but it's kinda of a mudded tartness.

 

[TheHairyHop]

This is exactly how I feel. You want these beers to be FG 1.014+ so that twang doesn't turn tart. If you've played w/ these yeasts, you'll immediately recognize what's happening — in the finish of these beers.

(of course the issue is this trio attenuates like crazy).

CBC-1 isn't the highest attenuation, correct? The natural carbonation addition could up the FG

 

[melville]

CBC-1 isn't the highest attenuation, correct? The natural carbonation addition could up the FG

I consistently get 80% with the core trio which makes mashing temps difficult, only in that I find it hard to believe that they are mashing at 158F. I haven't checked how CBC-1 changes things, but probably should.

 

[savylemons]

I consistently get 80% with the core trio which makes mashing temps difficult, only in that I find it hard to believe that they are mashing at 158F. I haven't checked how CBC-1 changes things, but probably should.

And why is that? I constantly mash at 158f and whitbread and 1318 both bring an all malt OG of 1.065-1.075 with up to 20% carafoam down to an FG of 1.012-1.014. The trio went down to like...1.008 and it was terribly dry.

 

[Jmash]

I got some Bright with Citra last week and the hop character resembled Julius. My next batch I'm going to try citra and amarillo

 

[StinkyBeer]

So a few observations I’ve found through my experiments:

- Had a fresh can of Lights On a couple of weeks ago and drank it next to a Trillium Fort Point. I mention the latter beer as it helped highlight something in a very obvious way...T-58 in the aroma and flavour of Lights On. After working with that yeast a bit It was real obvious. WB-06 I think was there too but far less prominent.

- WB-06 is a beast. It keeps on eating long after the other 2 have gone to sleep. I would put S-04 at about 78-80% attenuation, T-58 at about 76% and WB-06 at about 85%. More credence to the idea of just a little sprinkle.

- WB-06 is far more Belgian and clovey than T-58. T-58 is more peppery fruit and gum. WB-06 easily becomes smokey and clovey. I think in small quantities it will help amp the juice with a hint of wit on the finish.

Melville - How is your latest attempt where you switched around the ratios?

 

[StinkyBeer]

Current fave ratio is 87/10/3 and ferment at 65-66. Initial dry hop when pitching yeast. High chloride.

 

[Jmash]

Current fave ratio is 87/10/3 and ferment at 65-66. Initial dry hop when pitching yeast. High chloride.

So is 2nd dry hop in the keg?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

CBC-1 isn't the highest attenuation, correct? The natural carbonation addition could up the FG

The point about conditioning yeasts (and let's not forget it's hypothesised that they're using Fermentis F-2 rather than CBC-1) is that they just munch simple sugars into CO2 and leave complex sugars behind. So they're out of the picture in regard to complex sugars which may get munched by the likes of WB-06.

 

[melville]

So a few observations I’ve found through my experiments:



Melville - How is your latest attempt where you switched around the ratios?

Definitely better this way than the other way around. I'll likely bump T-58 up a pinch and bump wb-06 down a hair further.

 

[melville]

Current fave ratio is 87/10/3 and ferment at 65-66. Initial dry hop when pitching yeast. High chloride.

I think I'm going in this direction. How high are you going on chloride?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Any new updates on any of your guys beers?

the beer that I carbed with CBC, WB and T-58 hasn't shown a lick of oxidation. It's still incredibly pale. It has started to show a bit of fusels or esters, however. I don't know if it's due to the mixing of yeasts with CBC or the high ferm temps that it probably reached (I'm in LA with uncontrolled fermentation). I'm going to find a cooler weekend and basically redo the beer, but with a different hop

 

[kaz4121]

While it was already deduced and theorized, I can confirm that TH does naturally carbonate some of their beers. A friend relayed word that he saw a brewer (not Nate) add 8 bricks of dry yeast to one of the smaller brite tanks tonight. He couldn’t make out any packaging information.

That is all. Carry on.

 

[couchsending]

While it was already deduced and theorized, I can confirm that TH does naturally carbonate some of their beers. A friend relayed word that he saw a brewer (not Nate) add 8 bricks of dry yeast to one of the smaller brite tanks tonight. He couldn’t make out any packaging information.

That is all. Carry on.

Just speculating but if those “bricks” are the 500g ones that is a **** ton of yeast especially if it’s just for carbonating. Their brite tanks aren’t that big. Math isn’t my strong suit however or maybe it’s different on a larger scale but you really only need 2.5g max to carbonate a keg.

How big are there biggest fermenters I can’t remember? 120 right?

 

[StinkyBeer]

I think I'm going in this direction. How high are you going on chloride?

I'm going 150ppm Cl and 75ppm S04 and holding 50% of the chloride back as kettle addition.

 

[StinkyBeer]

The BBT's at the Chorlton facility look pretty big...

 

[couchsending]

Largest FV is 240 from what i’ve read... 4000g of yeast would roughly equate to carbonating a 240 batch but that’s still on the high end compared to how much fermentis recommends for a 5g keg. And supposedly this was a “small” bbt. Not a pro brewer so I’m sure I could be missing something.

 

[melville]

I'm going 150ppm Cl and 75ppm S04 and holding 50% of the chloride back as kettle addition.

Interesting, I've seen this somewhere else... what's the thinking there?

(and how would this effect mash ph, acid adjustments — I've just been adding my additions to the water before the mash)

 

[couchsending]

All depends on the water you use. I can’t speak for stinky but a lot of people hold their calcium additions from their sparge water and add to boil to drop PH slightly to hit optimum boil PH, as well as not lose minerals to mash.

 

[kaz4121]

Largest FV is 240 from what i’ve read... 4000g of yeast would roughly equate to carbonating a 240 batch but that’s still on the high end compared to how much fermentis recommends for a 5g keg. And supposedly this was a “small” bbt. Not a pro brewer so I’m sure I could be missing something.

Turns out after further examination today, it was in fact a fermenter and not brite tank. Sorry for the confusion! Maybe this can help with initial pitch rate though? I haven’t used dry yeast so not as familiar.

 

[Sbe2]

Turns out after further examination today, it was in fact a fermenter and not brite tank. Sorry for the confusion! Maybe this can help with initial pitch rate though? I haven’t used dry yeast so not as familiar.

TH two days in a week...Jealous

 

[TheHairyHop]

if it was the CBC, they could pitch extra in order to kill the other yeasts ASAP

 

[couchsending]

Turns out after further examination today, it was in fact a fermenter and not brite tank. Sorry for the confusion! Maybe this can help with initial pitch rate though? I haven’t used dry yeast so not as familiar.

So if it’s the smaller FVs those are 60 BBL. I believe 20% headspace is standard right? If that’s the case then 8 bricks would equal roughly 2.68g per gallon.. which seems round about correct but who knows what beer it was.

 

[Sbe2]

So 6:1:1 ratio would equal 75:12.5:12.5. Correct? Anyone try this ratio?

 

[melville]

So 6:1:1 ratio would equal 75:12.5:12.5. Correct? Anyone try this ratio?

That would seem high to me, but for all we know this could be a batch of Bright and all be S-05.

 

[couchsending]

Yeah thy would be a phenol bomb with that much WB-06. 7% WB-06 was waaaaay to much for me and dominated by phenols.

 

[Tommyd200]

I did a batch 90% US-04, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was quite disappointed with the results. Very little clove, banana, or spice. Just bready from the 04. Ok hop flavor (12 oz citra was used)
Then, I did a batch 45% US-04, 45% US-05, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was even more disappointed with the results. Absolutely no clove, banana, or spice. Tasted like I used hardly any hops at all (12 oz of citra was used)
For both batches, they were fermented in a controlled environment and the temperature average was 66 degrees during primary (1 week) and 70 degrees during secondary (1 week).
I would say that 7% WB-06 is hardly enough to get anything significant in my opinion and experience. 3% for T-58 might be too small to get anything significant as well.
My next move would be to increase the percentages of the 06 and 58 but the question is what percentages would be appropriate? An idea that came up is to do the biggest batch possible (about 12 gallons) and do six batches of fermentation and just change the %'s by 5% in each to get a lot of data. What does everyone think?

PS - Malt bill is strictly 90% 2 row and 10% carafoam

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm not trying to say too much, but I don't think that any yeast choice can hide 12 Oz of citra. How are you hopping and packaging? How were the hops stored?

 

[Tommyd200]

Frozen from LHBS to my freezer in the house. It's not that the citra was hidden, it was that it was so much more mute than if I just used the US-05 (my standard go-to yeast) or IOY Citrus, Juice, or Barbarian.

 

[melville]

I did a batch 90% US-04, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was quite disappointed with the results. Very little clove, banana, or spice. Just bready from the 04. Ok hop flavor (12 oz citra was used)
Then, I did a batch 45% US-04, 45% US-05, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was even more disappointed with the results. Absolutely no clove, banana, or spice. Tasted like I used hardly any hops at all (12 oz of citra was used)
For both batches, they were fermented in a controlled environment and the temperature average was 66 degrees during primary (1 week) and 70 degrees during secondary (1 week).
I would say that 7% WB-06 is hardly enough to get anything significant in my opinion and experience. 3% for T-58 might be too small to get anything significant as well.
My next move would be to increase the percentages of the 06 and 58 but the question is what percentages would be appropriate? An idea that came up is to do the biggest batch possible (about 12 gallons) and do six batches of fermentation and just change the %'s by 5% in each to get a lot of data. What does everyone think?

PS - Malt bill is strictly 90% 2 row and 10% carafoam

Do you have a pic? — just curious what the visuals are like for 10% Carafoam.

I definitely notice WB-06 at 7% and up. Don't notice at it 2.5-3% which is where I'm at with the last batch.

 

[melville]

I did a batch 90% US-04, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was quite disappointed with the results. Very little clove, banana, or spice. Just bready from the 04. Ok hop flavor (12 oz citra was used)
Then, I did a batch 45% US-04, 45% US-05, 7% WB-06, and 3% T-58... I was even more disappointed with the results. Absolutely no clove, banana, or spice. Tasted like I used hardly any hops at all (12 oz of citra was used)
For both batches, they were fermented in a controlled environment and the temperature average was 66 degrees during primary (1 week) and 70 degrees during secondary (1 week).
I would say that 7% WB-06 is hardly enough to get anything significant in my opinion and experience. 3% for T-58 might be too small to get anything significant as well.
My next move would be to increase the percentages of the 06 and 58 but the question is what percentages would be appropriate? An idea that came up is to do the biggest batch possible (about 12 gallons) and do six batches of fermentation and just change the %'s by 5% in each to get a lot of data. What does everyone think?

PS - Malt bill is strictly 90% 2 row and 10% carafoam

Also one could argue that not having any spice, clove, or banana is a good thing?

 

[couchsending]

Drinking the latest Julius, as well as the Tornado I'm amazed how little hop presence there actually seems to be. I get the feeling like the flavor and nose is significantly more yeast driven than hop driven.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I get that feeling too. I had a Haze recently and while the aroma had a lot of hop character I got a lot of banana in the flavor. Just me and my palette of course.

Fwiw, I used about 8% WB-06 and 7% T-58 in my last and only attempt and it is waaaaaay too much clove in my perception. Also much, much more than any TH beer I've had, I don't get any clove in their beers.

I will say though that as I'm sitting here drinking some of mine right now, it is less clove-y than it was. Still much more than I would like. This was 4 oz Galaxy, 4 oz Citra and 2 oz Eldorado for dry hops and a skimpy 2 oz Galaxy hop stand for the only kettle hops.

 

[Sbe2]

We wait two weeks??? and then see what they have canned.


*Man, I need to get a life

 

[Sbe2]

If anyone cares, did an all galaxy ale with S-04, rahr, carafoam. Super juicy thanks to Galaxy, but kinda get a twang at the end. Could be because I fermented at 78f for 8 hrs by accident. I feel I need more depth with hops and malt.

 

[TheHairyHop]

those getting clove, are you using wheat in your malt bill? That would tend to accentuate the clove due to increased levels of ferulic acid. Mashing lower tends to pull out more as well. You could also shorten your boil. Heat transforms the precursor of FA into 4-vinylgauacol