IPA with Saison Yeast - Opinions please

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thed163

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Weather is HOT. 95+ daily. Most would just wait to brew.

Myself, I'm hooked because I'm new.

What happens if I take a kama citra recipe from northern brewer and use saison yeast rather than the yeast it comes with?

Longer period before drinkable? ...I know the flavor will taste different. I'm picturing a hoppy saison? Or a ipa with the subtle saison funk? Anyone have any experience or thoughts or anything really...
 
Go for it!!! Saisons can be hoppy. My personal opinion is you will be much better off using a saison yeast than your typical English/American IPA yeast if you can't control temps and you know it will be warm. If you want to keep things simple I think you will be fine with belle saison dry yeast.

I don't think you will have a longer period before you can drink it. I wouldn't leave it to ferment outside at 95+, I would recommend keeping in your basement or somewhere cooler in the shade like a closet with an interior wall. I would aim to keep fermentation in the high 70's low 80's, maybe go a little higher toward the end, but I would really try to keep in the 70's. Your fermentation temp is actually going to be about 5-10 degrees warmer than the ambient temp, so keep that in mind.
 
I used Belle Saison in a hoppy saison and the hops completely dominated the spicy phenols.

So... if you want a lot of that saison character, you probably won't get it with IPA level hops. But it's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
I've used WLP550(not necessarily a Saison yeast) in a Belgian IPA with all Citra hops(the recipe is under my profile) and it turned out fantastic. 550 gives you more of a fruity characteristic that melds pretty good with the hops and it finishes really dry so the hops really shine.
 
It will turn out well and the saison yeast will dry it out more, further accentuating the hops. A bit of the saison esters will still make it through to the final beer. It will essentially be a Belgian IPA
 
I fermented a simple wheat beer (50% 2-row, 50% wheat malt, Saaz hops) using T-58 yeast while it was 80° in the house. I really liked the result. Maybe I got lucky.

I have a packet of Belle Saison yeast to try out, but I've run out of warm weather.

Are you using a NB kit, or just copying their recipe? You might want to back off the bittering hops a bit (or add them later in the boil) to keep it balanced because saison yeast ferments so dry.
 
RmikeVT said:
Go for it!!! Saisons can be hoppy. My personal opinion is you will be much better off using a saison yeast than your typical English/American IPA yeast if you can't control temps and you know it will be warm. If you want to keep things simple I think you will be fine with belle saison dry yeast.

I don't think you will have a longer period before you can drink it. I wouldn't leave it to ferment outside at 95+, I would recommend keeping in your basement or somewhere cooler in the shade like a closet with an interior wall. I would aim to keep fermentation in the high 70's low 80's, maybe go a little higher toward the end, but I would really try to keep in the 70's. Your fermentation temp is actually going to be about 5-10 degrees warmer than the ambient temp, so keep that in mind.
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Upon reading... It seems like what I would want to do is start around 70... couple days.. then let it run wild and get up and maybe over 90...
I know it sounds like it might get off flavors, might not be best, but with 3724 wyeast and 565 wlp, it seems people have had decent luck with 90+ and tin foil over the top of the carboy?
 
z-bob said:
I fermented a simple wheat beer (50% 2-row, 50% wheat malt, Saaz hops) using T-58 yeast while it was 80° in the house. I really liked the result. Maybe I got lucky.

I have a packet of Belle Saison yeast to try out, but I've run out of warm weather.

Are you using a NB kit, or just copying their recipe? You might want to back off the bittering hops a bit (or add them later in the boil) to keep it balanced because saison yeast ferments so dry.
Click to expand...

Have the kit, extract kit...

Think that is good advice. I've been experimenting very simply.. flame out additions, some orange peels, very subtle things.

This saison yeast is def the biggest alteration I'll have made, and it'll only be a 2.5g batch (saving the other half of the batch for when temps cool, or once I know how this turns out with the change)

Trillium is making dry hopped super saisons... I know that's entirely different, but it proves that the hoppy saison is a beautiful thing. I'm hoping for a nice hoppy saison...
 
Another thought on this one. Make sure you hook up a blow-off tube. If you are going to ferment on the warmer side, whatever yeast you use is going to go bonkers and blow the lid off of what ever you are fermenting in.
 
RmikeVT said:
Another thought on this one. Make sure you hook up a blow-off tube. If you are going to ferment on the warmer side, whatever yeast you use is going to go bonkers and blow the lid off of what ever you are fermenting in.
Click to expand...

On this topic... I read to use sani'd tin foil just wrapped around the neck to prevent the infamous saison stall?

Still recommend a blowoff tube THEN switch to that? I agree, with heat so high, it's probably not going to remain a neat brew. Might use an oversized fermenter for the 2.5 gal batch? That might work?
 
I took a Belgian IPA Recipe and used Belgian Ale Yeast (Mangrove Jack's M27) for it. I pitched 2 sachets and kept it below 90F and came out great (held it around 86F)...

This went to almost full dry (1.004) and I dry hopped in the primary at 3 weeks for a week before bottling.

Use a swamp cooler to keep it below 90F and you will be fine..

View attachment Belgian Saison IPA.pdf
 
HB_in_Subic said:
I took a Belgian IPA Recipe and used Belgian Ale Yeast (Mangrove Jack's M27) for it. I pitched 2 sachets and kept it below 90F and came out great (held it around 86F)...

This went to almost full dry (1.004) and I dry hopped in the primary at 3 weeks for a week before bottling.

Use a swamp cooler to keep it below 90F and you will be fine..
Click to expand...

Plan is to do all of the above. Thanks! Am I wrong in thinking that above 90 is okay though? Just a few things I read saying that they can be pushed that high... just a lot of people are worried about off flavors but they don't seem to happen if you push em that high.
 
thed163 said:
On this topic... I read to use sani'd tin foil just wrapped around the neck to prevent the infamous saison stall?

Still recommend a blowoff tube THEN switch to that? I agree, with heat so high, it's probably not going to remain a neat brew. Might use an oversized fermenter for the 2.5 gal batch? That might work?
Click to expand...

I've never heard of the sanitized tin foil wrapped around the nick trick. I'm not sure what this accomplishes. There is only 1 strain that is notorious for stalling, Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison or WLP565 Belgian Saison I, and I don't know much about them, as I've always used other saison strains and never had a problem with stalling.

Yes, oversized fermenter will probably work, as you move forward with this hobby I would recommend slapping a blow off tub on everything you brew that doesn't have a huge amount of head space.
 
RmikeVT said:
I've never heard of the sanitized tin foil wrapped around the nick trick. I'm not sure what this accomplishes. There is only 1 strain that is notorious for stalling, Wyeast 3724 Belgian Saison or WLP565 Belgian Saison I, and I don't know much about them, as I've always used other saison strains and never had a problem with stalling.

Yes, oversized fermenter will probably work, as you move forward with this hobby I would recommend slapping a blow off tub on everything you brew that doesn't have a huge amount of head space.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rmike. I think that's sound advice.

The tin foil prevents the back pressure which causes the yeast strains mentioned above to stall... I actually just found it noted on here

But that is not where I originally saw it. I saw it in an article regarding using saison yeast strains and what works best. I can't seem to locate said link now. It was noted to combine the two above mentioned yeasts for a nice combo.
 
thed163 said:
Plan is to do all of the above. Thanks! Am I wrong in thinking that above 90 is okay though? Just a few things I read saying that they can be pushed that high... just a lot of people are worried about off flavors but they don't seem to happen if you push em that high.
Click to expand...

I push all my saisons to the mid 90s and IME it gets the best yeast character
 
I did this for the first time about a year ago and it turned out so awesome it's become something I do every time I brew a hoppy beer: one with 001 and the other half with INISBC farmhouse strain. I wrote about it here.
 
I have a Belle Saison Rye IPA fermenting right now. Only needs a kitchen sink and it'll have everything
 
thed163 said:
AWESOME. Thank you sir!:mug:
Click to expand...

Sure thing. Actually I was thinking last night about that brew, the one year anniversary of me doing that is coming up (I did an IPA with my fresh hop harvest, first year rhiozomes last year) and figured I would just do two kegs of the belgian IPA this time around, it was leagues better than the standard IPA done with the same wort in my opinion.

I also just did with a Citra extra-pale ale (tapped last weekend) and used the Chouffe strain for one half the batch, it did a pretty awesome job of making a great beer of it as well, but that INISBC farmhouse strain adds more complexity to the finsihed beer, IMO. In my belgian IPA thread someone said it's similar to Wyeast 3726, FWIW.
 
I've brewed many hoppy saisons, regular saisons that have been dry-hopped and also ipas with trappist high gravity yeast, which I've used on saisons and tripels and quads many times. Just go for it. It'll taste good.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
Sure thing. Actually I was thinking last night about that brew, the one year anniversary of me doing that is coming up (I did an IPA with my fresh hop harvest, first year rhiozomes last year) and figured I would just do two kegs of the belgian IPA this time around, it was leagues better than the standard IPA done with the same wort in my opinion.

I also just did with a Citra extra-pale ale (tapped last weekend) and used the Chouffe strain for one half the batch, it did a pretty awesome job of making a great beer of it as well, but that INISBC farmhouse strain adds more complexity to the finsihed beer, IMO. In my belgian IPA thread someone said it's similar to Wyeast 3726, FWIW.
Click to expand...

My thought is 3724, and maybe I am stuck on that, and maybe I just don't know enough... But it seemed to have what I wanted if I recall correctly.
 
thed163 said:
My thought is 3724, and maybe I am stuck on that, and maybe I just don't know enough... But it seemed to have what I wanted if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...

I've only been brewing 2 years so I haven't used that many strains yet as I re-use my yeast for multiple brews. I have only used the westmalle trappist ale yeast, the INISBC 291 farmhouse, wyeast wallonian saison 565, and the Achouffe strain. I would say just use one which you like most for belgian beers.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
I've only been brewing 2 years so I haven't used that many strains yet as I re-use my yeast for multiple brews. I have only used the westmalle trappist ale yeast, the INISBC 291 farmhouse, wyeast wallonian saison 565, and the Achouffe strain. I would say just use one which you like most for belgian beers.
Click to expand...

This is only my 3rd-4th batch! ...this is just a whim based on researching how i can keep brewing with this heat and no designated temp control system.

I'll give it a shot. I just have read up on the saison yeasts and remember liking the sounds of the one i mentioned. We shall see. I'm really pumped now that I got all these positive replies.
 
m00ps said:
ive found 3711 to be the best for hoppy saisons. It has a bright lemony character that goes well; with most IPA hops. There's tons of other choices though. I rambled about most of the strains ive used
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=542346
Click to expand...

Keep in mind the heat we're talking here... I think I can keep it below 80, but it's been 95 each day, and I've been working hard to keep temps even on the high end of where they need to be for ales.

That link, bookmarked. Thanks to you also. So much info from you all.
 
thed163 said:
This is only my 3rd-4th batch! ...this is just a whim based on researching how i can keep brewing with this heat and no designated temp control system.

I'll give it a shot. I just have read up on the saison yeasts and remember liking the sounds of the one i mentioned. We shall see. I'm really pumped now that I got all these positive replies.
Click to expand...

I started with saisons before I had temp control as well. Also weizen yeast does well in the heat. Best of luck going forward, this is an infinitely addictive hobby! :)
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
I started with saisons before I had temp control as well. Also weizen yeast does well in the heat. Best of luck going forward, this is an infinitely addictive hobby! :)
Click to expand...

We've brewed 3 times so far... we've drank 0 of them... We're just brewing ever other week it seems... some small batch some larger... one all grain gallon batch (the brooklyn brew shop my gf picked up their jalepeno saison)...

We're just brewing a bunch and hoping something comes out delicious.
 
are you just letting them free rise? Ive found that wrapping the fermentor in a heavy blanket or making it wear a winter jacket works well to insulate the heat from fermentation and letting it free rise

also, ive found saisons have a pretty fast turnaround. I usually go grain to glass in less than 4 weeks
 
I was thinking I'd try to control the early beginning with swamp cooler, then free rise yes.
 
thed163 said:
I was thinking I'd try to control the early beginning with swamp cooler, then free rise yes.
Click to expand...

After a few brews I spent $20 on an STC 1000 and wired it up to a double outlet, I used a swamp cooler and fan for cooling and a fermwrap for heating, the cooling outlet was hooked to a small fan so it help the 'swamp cooler' work better if it wanted to cool the brew. It was ugly but worked really well for warmer fermenting beer until the fall rolled around and I started using WLP001 with this setup.
 
thed163 said:
Weather is HOT. 95+ daily. Most would just wait to brew.



Myself, I'm hooked because I'm new.



What happens if I take a kama citra recipe from northern brewer and use saison yeast rather than the yeast it comes with?



Longer period before drinkable? ...I know the flavor will taste different. I'm picturing a hoppy saison? Or a ipa with the subtle saison funk? Anyone have any experience or thoughts or anything really...
Click to expand...


Sounds like a Belgian IPA to me!
 
So the five gallon recipe (things will be halved) arrived today.
My concerns are extract amounts.

Specifically 3lbs liquid extract. Should I use less? Also, SO MANY HOPS. ...
In5 g terms, .5 centennial hops 60 min (maybe okay, as not a lot).
1oz cascade 20 min
Another at 10 min
2oz citra flame out ten minute hop stand
Then one oz citra 1 oz cascade dry hop.

I guess after reading, it's okay since light on bittering hops...

Thoughts? The lme concerns me for some reason. .75oz caramel 40 specialty grain which seems fine but I have no idea honestly

View attachment 1441853414195.jpg
 
I just keep the initial pitch temp controlled, but most of the heat from fermentation comes from early on. Id take advantage of that because those first few days is where most the flavor profile is locked in. Warming it after that period will help it finish, but wont affect the flavor as much. I just pitch at a controlled temp and let it go. But ive read people even pitching into the 80s and being fine
 
So, anyone want to review this recipe?
Concern is cascade specifically. Got 3724 yeast yesterday.

Cascade will clash in flavors I think. I should keep it citrus and fruity... Opinions highly welcomed

View attachment 1442169769767.jpg
 
IMO Nelson would be better suited than cascade for a saison, or at least with that particular yeast. Mosaic is a very good choice too. Its tropical but has an earhy edge to it that will compliment saison esters. I also like Amarillo in saisons. its bright peach/citrus pairs well with some of the lemony character the yeasts can make
 
So I brewed and altered a bit. Being new, I took a lot of advice from lhbs, some from here and some from brewer friends. And winged a bit...

Ibu note at bottom was from a calculator which I'm not sure if I calculated correctly.

Either way it's in the closet bubbling away.

View attachment 1442443402656.jpg
 
Realized pictures not very clear.
Late hops are cascade changed from twenty to ten min. Then cascade at FO (Orig was cascade 20 and 10m) and add half oz mosaic at flame out with original 1oz citra.

Decided dry hop will be .5 mosaic and citra. Was cascade. Didn't want too much dry hop as it's a 2.5 gal batch to begin and it'll soak a lot up.
 
So... I brewed this. It's been sitting for about 2 weeks now. First few days, it'd been really hot (perfect). What has happened now, temps dropped.

Bought a bucket, bought an aquarium heater, set it up. Water temps staying steady around 78 deg. Hoping that means 83-88 temps IN fermenter.

With fermentation going this long, I'm hoping I get that great attenuation others have reported with 3724. I had no idea it'd take this long to finish, but it smells INCREDIBLE more so by the day. I have a black trashbag over the top of the bucket also, mainly for light, hopefully insulating a little also.

Waiting to dry hop! Hoping for a very fruity/hoppy, dry, farmhouse ? Will post results once I hit my FG. Refractometer is on the way, should arrive this week.
 
thed163 said:
Refractometer is on the way, should arrive this week.
Click to expand...

FYI I have read many times on here folks saying dont measure FG with a refractometer, the alcohol messes with the reading. They are great and easy for OG reading/checking for gravity during mash/sparge. Get yourself a hydrometer for your FG reading if you dont have one yet.
 

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