I'm losing my mind over this

[TimmyWit]

Man, I feel for you and I applaud your determination. I hope your problem is fixed. I can't offer up anything that hasn't already been covered here. But, if your problem isn't fixed, maybe you could try a new approach.

Buy a beginners extract kit (new siphon, fermenter, etc) and source your water from somewhere different. The key is that you don't use anything that you are currently using.

If the beer is good, start introducing your system back to your process one component at a time. For example, brew another extract kit using your current water source. If it's still good, brew another one with all the new equipment and then keg it. Maybe even get a new keg/borrow a keg with a picnic tap so the only thing you're introducing is your Co2 setup.

In theory, you're fessing up to having one more bad batch but you should be able to start making good beer. If you use all virgin gear and still have the problem, at least you have eliminated all your components.

I know this isn't the cheapest method but it beats dumping batch after batch down the drain.

 

[Seven]

Question for those that keg: Do you cover the mouth of the keg during racking? I always cover it with a star-san soaked paper towel to prevent the CO2 from escaping and to keep anything from getting into the keg.

I do the exact thing you described; I soak a paper towel with star san and use it to cover the keg opening when racking.

 

[BreezyBrew]

i do the exact thing you described; i soak a paper towel with star san and use it to cover the keg opening when racking.

+2

 

[pablosbrewing]

First, what processes are you referring to?

Second, if I use my tap water, dark beers come out fine but light beers don't taste right. What should I do if I don't modify the water profile - brew only stouts and porters?

This is what I do for my BIAB setup 5.5 gal batches - I do use 1/4tsp potassium metabisulfite to knock out the chloramine first.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

 

[LovesIPA]

I never tried that calculator before. I'll have to play with it. It looks really simple to use.

 

[LovesIPA]

I had a couple pints of the Mosaic IPA last night. It was good, but I could taste the beginnings of the off-flavor. The hop flavor and aroma were there but a little subdued compared to the sample I took at kegging.

I just tried some now and I can hardly smell or taste hops anymore. The aroma and flavor are just about gone and all I taste is a gross sweet/sour flavor.

Well it's not the water. I think this proved that. I think that it's time to throw everything plastic away (not that there is all that much) again and replace. I think I should have used a new auto-siphon this time. I used a new bucket but the auto-siphon had been used to transfer infected beers. I soaked it in bleach, rinsed well, and then soaked it star-san.

DAMN this is frustrating. But I feel like I'm really close to solving the problem.

 

[derek704]

I wonder if the contaminate is airborne. Could an air purifier possibly do the trick?


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[Conman13]

Have you had another experienced brewer try the beer yet?

Take the path of least resistance man...

 

[WNCBrewman]

That I believe we're due to minimal oxidation while racking. The problem is you start with great smelling and tasting beer then the off flavor can be very minimal, then it takes over and gets worse and takes over both malt and hop flavors. Some describe it as cardboard but I find it to be somewhat metallic. So I've noticed on the last five batches that I have paid very close attention to my racking technique along with bottling technique (no air pockets any where in the tubing or near transitions like my auto siphon or bottling wand) I have had much better results . Also union Dr brought up a great point about removing sprockets from your bottling buckets or plastic tormentors to ensure proper cleaning sanitation and ensuring your not introducing left over cleaner to your beer inadvertently. Hope you find out your problems . I'm sure it could be a simple step such as this.

 

[LovesIPA]

Have you had another experienced brewer try the beer yet?

Take the path of least resistance man...

No, I haven't. I honestly have no idea who to ask. I don't know any experienced brewers.

But why? I have no doubt what the problem is - I am just struggling trying to get rid of it. Apparently soaking in bleach for a couple hours doesn't do it, which is pretty surprising. I'm at the point now where I'm going to throw out anything that's made of plastic and has come into contact with an infected batch.

That I believe we're due to minimal oxidation while racking. The problem is you start with great smelling and tasting beer then the off flavor can be very minimal, then it takes over and gets worse and takes over both malt and hop flavors. Some describe it as cardboard but I find it to be somewhat metallic. So I've noticed on the last five batches that I have paid very close attention to my racking technique along with bottling technique (no air pockets any where in the tubing or near transitions like my auto siphon or bottling wand) I have had much better results.

It can't be oxidation. For one, it takes weeks for those flavors to develop. This happens in days. Second, I am very careful to avoid oxidation. Those bubbles you see in the top of a racking cane are CO2 bubbles knocked out of solution. The fermenter is full of CO2. The keg is full of CO2. I don't see how the beer could even come into contact with a significant amount of oxygen.

Also union Dr brought up a great point about removing sprockets from your bottling buckets or plastic tormentors to ensure proper cleaning sanitation and ensuring your not introducing left over cleaner to your beer inadvertently. Hope you find out your problems . I'm sure it could be a simple step such as this.

It's not that either, my buckets don't have spigots. They are provisioned for them, but they aren't drilled out. On the inside they are all smooth plastic. I don't secondary and I don't use a bottling bucket. I rack right from primary fermenter to the keg.

 

[DocScott]

I've been absent from this thread for a while but it seems nothing has changed...

please, please, please - BOTTLE A BATCH!!

If you are looking for someone experienced to taste it, there are many BJCP certified judges on this forum. Is there a homebrew club in your area? I bring a few bottles to my club every month for tasting and "judging". I'm not certified but would be willing to try a beer of yours if you ship it to me and want honest feedback.

Does the taste/aroma change if you let the beer warm up prior to drinking?

 

[LovesIPA]

please, please, please - BOTTLE A BATCH!!

For what purpose?

 

[BigAndo]

So you can take it and see what other people think of it!!

Also, if the problem occurs in the keg, as recent posts would indicate, this might solve the problem?


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[DocScott]

For what purpose?

to eliminate your kegs/lines/gas/couplers/etc as the source of your "infection"

I know you have said that the problem has also been noticed coming out of your fermenters. BUT, this last one tasted great coming out of primary. You are trying to figure out where the problem lies, but not trying many different actions, other than cleaning and saying "not possible in my system", to remedy the problem.

Infections take longer than 2-3 days to become detectable. I know that you are frustrated - I certainly understand and sympathize with you, but I think you have thrown all of your eggs into the same basket by calling all of your beers "infected". I think your problem is best serviced, not by shooting down more advice from us on here, but by getting your "bad" beer to someone knowledgeable who can figure out what the "off" flavor is. I'd be happy to help if you want a stranger from NY's advice. Good luck

 

[LovesIPA]

to eliminate your kegs/lines/gas/couplers/etc as the source of your "infection"

The kegs are thoroughly cleaned and sanitized. I can't get them any cleaner. If the infection is somehow lingering in the kegs then I will need to throw them out and buy new ones.

I know you have said that the problem has also been noticed coming out of your fermenters. BUT, this last one tasted great coming out of primary.

The key is that this was a brand new fermenter. Note that it did not become infected during primary. I also no longer store beers where I store grains and so when I dry-hopped this batch it also did not become infected - so that problem appears to be solved thanks to HBT.

So this tells me that if I ferment in a bucket that previously had an infected beer, the infection carries forward. Buying a new bucket proved that.

You are trying to figure out where the problem lies, but not trying many different actions, other than cleaning and saying "not possible in my system", to remedy the problem.

I don't know where this perception comes from. I am changing things around, using different water, buying new equipment, trying to eliminate possible causes - sometimes even taking advice in this thread that I know will not make a difference. I have never said "not possible in my system" as you quoted me.

Infections take longer than 2-3 days to become detectable.

Do you have a source for this? Because I am extremely skeptical of this statement.

I know that you are frustrated - I certainly understand and sympathize with you, but I think you have thrown all of your eggs into the same basket by calling all of your beers "infected". I think your problem is best serviced, not by shooting down more advice from us on here, but by getting your "bad" beer to someone knowledgeable who can figure out what the "off" flavor is. I'd be happy to help if you want a stranger from NY's advice. Good luck

The off-flavor is an infection. There is no doubt in my mind that it is because there is no other explanation that fits all the evidence.

If it isn't, then explain why when I use a bucket that had previously contained "infected" beer, the next beer in that bucket becomes "infected" but if I buy a new bucket from the LHBS, the beer is fine? If that's not an "infection" then what in the world is it?

Besides that, no one in this entire thread has presented a plausible alternative. Unless you count the water profile issue, but it was never plausible for me. I brewed the batch with distilled water and 6 teaspoons of gypsum just to prove to you guys that the water isn't the problem.

Remember that this flavor is unique and unmistakeable, and nothing I have ever tasted in a commercial beer.

 

[LovesIPA]

My stainless steel 7 gallon fermenter arrived today.

I am almost excited to brew again.

 

[DocScott]

The off-flavor is an infection. There is no doubt in my mind that it is because there is no other explanation that fits all the evidence.

Then, since your approach to trouble shoot the only things that could be wrong hasn't worked, I suggest you throw out all of your equipment and start over with all new items. This, by your theory, will eliminate all contaminated items and get you back on track to brewing the beer you want to.

Yes, it will be expensive, but it will be better than continuing to contaminate your new fermenters/tubing/kegs/etc with your ongoing infection.

Good luck, and my sympathies for all of your work and lost beer over the past many months.

 

[Sideways]

Go get yourself a good commercial IPA, open it, stick it in the fridge and taste it after a day or two. Its a good way to learn what oxidation tastes like. It may not be your problem, but its an easy test and can be informative.

 

[LovesIPA]

I thought oxidation flavors take days if not weeks to develop?

 

[dobe12]

I'd just like to second the remark that infections take longer than a few days to add any off flavors to a beer. They can take weeks if not months. If your beers are getting infected you won't taste it within only 2-3 days.

 

[LovesIPA]

I'd just like to second the remark that infections take longer than a few days to add any off flavors to a beer. They can take weeks if not months. If your beers are getting infected you won't taste it within only 2-3 days.

What could possibly happen to beer in 2-3 days that would make it go from good to undrinkable?

 

[dobe12]

What could possibly happen to beer in 2-3 days that would make it go from good to undrinkable?

No idea, but I'm confident it's not an infection.

 

[LovesIPA]

No idea, but I'm confident it's not an infection.

Can you explain why beers fermented in buckets that have had prior infected batches in them taste bad right out of the bucket but batches fermented in new buckets taste fine?

 

[dobe12]

Can you explain why beers fermented in buckets that have had prior infected batches in them taste bad right out of the bucket but batches fermented in new buckets taste fine?

When you add wort to a bucket that already possesses an infection, that bacteria will start to go to work. While your wort starts to ferment and turn to beer, the infection is going to work too, but it takes time. It doesn't happen in 2-3 days. 2-3 weeks? Maybe? A few months, definitely.

Ever wonder why sours take months if not years to get their flavor? It takes time. You can't make a sour in days or even weeks. Now, I'm sure there are certain bacteria that work quicker than others, but it doesn't happen as quick as you think. It's common knowledge and practice that if you catch an infection early on you can rack from under the bacteria and still drink the beer. You want to drink it relatively quickly and not let it sit around for months, but you wont notice any off flavors right away. I can personally attest to this.

 

[LovesIPA]

Ever wonder why sours take months if not years to get their flavor? It takes time. You can't make a sour in days or even weeks.

Is what you're basing the idea on that it takes weeks for an infection flavor to show up in beer?

Now, I'm sure there are certain bacteria that work quicker than others, but it doesn't happen as quick as you think. It's common knowledge and practice that if you catch an infection early on you can rack from under the bacteria and still drink the beer. You want to drink it relatively quickly and not let it sit around for months, but you wont notice any off flavors right away. I can personally attest to this.

That's probably true in the case of a beer that got infected from something falling into the fermenter. But if the bugs are living in tiny cracks in the plastic all over the inside of the bucket, I bet it works a lot different.

Also, all bugs don't taste the same, work the same, or do it in the same amount of time.

 

[rskelhorn]

..no one in this entire thread has presented a plausible alternative..

I think the home brew Gods have rejected you, and are suggesting you get a new hobby... or -you have Dysgeusia.

Either way, wish you the best of luck.

 

[dobe12]

Is what you're basing the idea on that it takes weeks for an infection flavor to show up in beer?



That's probably true in the case of a beer that got infected from something falling into the fermenter. But if the bugs are living in tiny cracks in the plastic all over the inside of the bucket, I bet it works a lot different. (Nope, it works the same. Infections take a little bit of time to show themselves, but longer to impart flavor.)

Also, all bugs don't taste the same, work the same, or do it in the same amount of time.(I pretty much said the same thing above. Thanks for agreeing)

You know what.... you're right. We're all wrong. Throw away all your gear (better yet ship it to me) and start fresh. I'm just some guy trying to help you out on a home brew forum.

You sir prove my quote, thank you!

 

[LovesIPA]

I think the home brew Gods have rejected you, and are suggesting you get a new hobby... or -you have Dysgeusia.

Either way, wish you the best of luck.

Other people make good beer, and I am determined to as well.

Thank you

 

[dobe12]

Other people make good beer, and I am determined to as well.

Thank you

Yet you ignore the solid advice and wisdom that these others who make good beer try to impart on you.

 

[Brewmenn]

or -you have Dysgeusia.

I had to look it up to see what it means, but after following this thread for the past few weeks I think this is a possibility that needs to be considered.

 

[noob1979]

Hi, I have no background at all in brewing, feel free to throw this out all together. I asked on one of my threads if using gypsum would effect the beers flavor if I used it as a flocking agent, its used in ponds as such. I got a reply that the gypsum could change the flavor of the beer. Is the flavor similar to an acidic sour like taste. It may be producing something acid and salts and releasing hydrogen if some acids are used with it. I used to mess with it in a geology lab in college.


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[BigAndo]

Some medications can cause that, it's probably worth considering!

Dysgeusia I mean.

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[BigAndo]

Could your keg be drawing air? (I know this is unlikely, but there may be a cracked or porous weld somewhere allowing ingress)


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[noob1979]

I did a little poking around with the Dusheusia thread, and one of the treatments is alpha lipoic acid. It's a vitamin co factor, and is used to help replace zinc, vitamin E, citric acid, and some others. If you are deficient in something you will taste them predominantly. That would increase in efficiency within minutes as you take it in. Alpha lipoic acid is given off by yeast. You may not be deficient in anything, but you may want to think about your diet in that case.


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[LovesIPA]

I am don't take any medication and I don't have Dysgeusia. I had to look it up too. If I did, don't you think I would taste this commercial beers as well? Why would it only be my own beers?

 

[LovesIPA]

Yet you ignore the solid advice and wisdom that these others who make good beer try to impart on you.

I haven't ignored any advice. I have received, on occasion, advice that didn't make sense but it's unfair to say that I have ignored anything

 

[uatuba]

I am don't take any medication and I don't have Dysgeusia. I had to look it up too. If I did, don't you think I would taste this commercial beers as well? Why would it only be my own beers?

Try a commercial bottle conditioned beer.

 

[LovesIPA]

Is what you're basing the idea on that it takes weeks for an infection flavor to show up in beer?

Since you nor the other poster who made this claim is able to provide a source for this information, I asked a perfectly reasonable question. Apparently you have taken offense and I'm not sure why.

(Nope, it works the same. Infections take a little bit of time to show themselves, but longer to impart flavor.)

This is absolutely not true. Are you a microbiologist or do you have a professional background in that field?

I do not, but I do know a little about it and this statement is simply not true.

Also, all bugs don't taste the same, work the same, or do it in the same amount of time.(I pretty much said the same thing above. Thanks for agreeing)

First you said it works the same, now you're agreeing with me when I say that all bugs are different. So which is it?

You know what.... you're right. We're all wrong. Throw away all your gear (better yet ship it to me) and start fresh. I'm just some guy trying to help you out on a home brew forum.

You sir prove my quote, thank you!You know what.... you're right. We're all wrong. Throw away all your gear (better yet ship it to me) and start fresh. I'm just some guy trying to help you out on a home brew forum.

Deal. PM me your address. I will send you all my plastic buckets and my auto-siphon. Enjoy!

I honestly don't get where the attitude is coming from. I understand that I started this thread to ask for help, but it seems like some folks don't like having their advice or information questioned. I was brought up to question everything.

Why does yeast impart flavor almost immediately but wild yeast or bacteria supposedly take weeks or months? It doesn't make sense to me. I can absolutely be convinced that I'm wrong, but if you can't back up your claim with either reason or facts, expect me to be skeptical. I don't just take yours (or anyone's) word for it.

Then you throw out the thing about sour beers. It's true that sour beers take a long time to age, but is that because it takes time for the flavors to meld, mature and become pleasant to our palettes, or because it takes time for the sour flavor to appear in the beer? I honestly don't know; I've never tasted a young sour. But I would put money on the fact that within 2-3 days of pitching a vial of Brett, Lacto, or anything else into beer that you are going to taste it.

Again - I'm sorry that you are offended, but you appear to be offended because I won't take your word for it.

 

[LovesIPA]

Try a commercial bottle conditioned beer.

I love Racer 5. One of my all time favorites.

 

[tektonjp]

It's been over four months with this thread. Have you had other people taste your brew as we have suggested as a starting point?