IDEA: Ultimate Mash Tun

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Yuri_Rage

Yuri_Rage

Gritty.
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
14,260
Reaction score
786
Location
Southwest
I was tossing and turning last night because I had this idea, so I drew it up this afternoon:

4688-ultimate_mash_tun.jpg


I'd use a 20 gallon brew kettle as the basis for the project. In the bottom sits a copper manifold of concentric rings with two valves attached - one to allow steam injection, the other for wort recirculation and collection.

The manifold would sit underneath a perforated stainless false bottom. Why a false bottom? I want the most even grain bed possible. Also, with my current perforated false bottom, I get a handful of grain "stragglers" through it and into the wort. I think the combination of a false bottom and manifold will really work nicely.

On top of the whole deal is a slow turning gear motor with stirring paddles attached. On one of the paddles somewhere in the middle, I'd attach a temperature sensor (the wired connection at the top would have to be able to spin, but that's not tough).

Everything will be computer controlled through the software I've been writing off and on for the past 6-9 months.

Maximum flexibility is the idea here - a multi-purpose manifold, even heating, stirring, the ability to direct fire...

SWMBO hates when I have these ideas...I can't let them rest until I build them...

What do y'all think?
 
I will jump on the You Kick Arse Yuri bandwagon yet again! Keep us posted, that could be hella fun to build.
 
Yuri_Rage said:
What do y'all think?
Click to expand...

I think it's great. I've been using a 10 gal rubermaid rigged like that for a good while. My gearmotor is from an old electric ice cream maker. Steam is generated in an old 16qt al pressure cooker and passes through the bottom of the tun via a bulkhead fitting. The shaft for the stirrer fits into a bushing in the center of the false bottom. There is some guy named Stryker or something like that, that makes something similar, only his lifts from the tun as a unit. Pretty cool. He calls the system a SIMMS.

Good luck with the project.....:)
 
RadicalEd said:
Looks like fun! Is that for batch or fly sparging, then?
Click to expand...
Well, you could do both rather easily. I'm a fly sparging kinda guy, so that's what I plan on doing primarily.

I've seen the SIMMS guy's website. I like his system, but I want to do a more refined version of it.
 
Awesome of course.
The only thing I can think of is that you may want to separate the steam and wort out manifolds. You have done more testing than I, but don't you want just a few tiny holes for the steam manifold? Where as you would want many larger holes or slits for the wort out.

This is overkill, but if you want a sweet slip ring for your temperature sensor check out: http://www.mercotac.com/
 
Sounds marketable. Helps the homebrewers who are willing to invest in some well designed equipment avoid some of the pitfalls.

We could team up. Your ultimate mash tun and my super deluxe heat exchange pre...um...exchanger...thingy.

PreChiller.JPG

Of course, mine being more sophisticated, we'd have to offer some sort of incentive for them to buy yours..... ;)
 
fifelee said:
Awesome of course.
The only thing I can think of is that you may want to separate the steam and wort out manifolds. You have done more testing than I, but don't you want just a few tiny holes for the steam manifold? Where as you would want many larger holes or slits for the wort out.

This is overkill, but if you want a sweet slip ring for your temperature sensor check out: http://www.mercotac.com/
Click to expand...
Thanks for all the info! Those connectors appear to be a bit on the pricey side, but they'd work great.

As far as separating the manifolds - I don't think it's necessary at all. Part of the inspiration for the project is the fact that my existing steam manifold tends to act as a siphon and drains clear wort from the mash tun if I ever have a reason to disconnect it before the sparge is complete.
 
Why computer controlled, Yuri? I'm assuming you're talking about one or more feedback loops but you'd have to be in attendance of all the equipment anyway, and you'd have to build in deadbands to dampen any temperature oscillations. It would be such a slow procedure you'd be better off just controlling it yourself, unless I'm missing something here.
 
My experience with my paddle is you have to be careful or your mash will get compacted. A gentle stir now and again works fine, but a little of a good thing goes a long way. Just my two cents.
 
Fingers said:
Why computer controlled, Yuri? I'm assuming you're talking about one or more feedback loops but you'd have to be in attendance of all the equipment anyway, and you'd have to build in deadbands to dampen any temperature oscillations. It would be such a slow procedure you'd be better off just controlling it yourself, unless I'm missing something here.
Click to expand...
I'm not necessarily talking about full automation, but it would be mouse clicks rather than switch flicks to make everything go. All temperatures, pressures, and pH readings are digitally fed to the computer. Also, certain events could be timed, like a few revolutions of the mash paddle every 15-20 mins.
 
Yuri,

Great concept, and no doubt equally great execution when the time comes. I wonder about the ability to transfer heat efficiently through the false bottom screen. Since the steam is injected below the screen, the liquid there will no doubt be well heated. But will the steam pass through the screen into the body of the mash? And if not, will the hot wort below the screen circulate through it efficiently enough to transfer it's heat to the mash?

I'm just wondering, since I really don't have a clue. An alternative solution may be to put the steam manifold above the false bottom or to pump the hot wort from below the screen to above it.

Like I say, I'm impressed by the overall design but wondering about heat transfer efficiency through the false bottom screen.
 
I was thinking the same thing. You may wind up scorching the wort under the screen with steam because heat transfer will be poor.

I was thinking of setting up steam injection into the mash via the stir paddles once I get the gear together. It's been my observation that even with moderate stirring, heat transfer from the steam maifold to the wort is not very uniform - I was measuring a lot of hot and cold spots.
 
Why not consider recirculating the wort through the mash and injecting steam into the wort instead of directly into the mash. Much less engineering effort and much easier to control temperatures and make the process repeatable.
 
kladue said:
Why not consider recirculating the wort through the mash and injecting steam into the wort instead of directly into the mash. Much less engineering effort and much easier to control temperatures and make the process repeatable.
Click to expand...
How would I inject steam into the recirculating wort? That seems tougher.

I guess I don't quite follow you, but you've always had sound advice...I'm listening...
 
With regard to the wort under the false bottom...there wouldn't be much wort there. The false bottom could rest directly on top of the manifold, leaving only about 1/2" of liquid underneath. I think the risk is minimal. I, too, have noticed that steam mashing tends to make hot spots. I'm hoping a well designed stir paddle system conquers that issue.

I don't want to put the false bottom on top of the manifold...that negates its purpose entirely.
 
The steam mixer in use currently is a 1/4" od X 1 1/4" SS screen wire tube inside a 1/2" swagelok tee. Screen wire tube is silver soldered to inside of 1/2" tube attached to one end of tee, wort in is through side connection, mixture out through end opposite screen. Screen wire tube provides the small openings needed to get the steam and wort mixed quietly as the wort flow is fast and turbulent enough to mix well. Sparge water is passed through same screen with pump flow directed to boil kettle so unit is self cleaning during sparge cycle. Screen tube was rolled over 1/8" welding rod and flared to fit end of 1/2" tube for soldering. This is a scale copy of the PICK brand steam mixer used for steam injection in cooking applications.
 
Had to go measure screen to get mesh size, 16 wires to the inch. Screen is 1/4" OD X 2 1/2" long, soldered to inlet of a 1/2" port connector fitting between 2 tee's. Pump in use is a march MDX-MT3 mag drive and flow is measured in a dwyer flow meter on pump outlet to monitor for stuck mash conditions.
 
Very cool. How well does it work? Part of my fascination with direct injection of steam into the mash tun is the ability to quickly raise the mash temperature. I've noticed that recirculating systems tend to take a long time to distribute the heat throughout the mash.
 
When the steam injection system is in operation the steam is controlled to raise the wort temperature to 152 deg leaving the mixer. It takes about 11 minutes to raise the mash from 130 deg to 152 keeping the wort temperature at 152 leaving the mixer. If the popular theory is that the enzymes are in the liquid component is correct, then raising the wort temperature to 152 should have completed the step from protien rest to starch conversion as the wort leaves the mixer.
 
This is sounding neat. I'd love to see a pic if you have one.

I am thinking about trying this slightly differently. I was thinking about coming in the side of the tee with the steam and using a small mesh disc to diffuse the steam. Won't be as much surface area, but may work just the same
 
I've had people question my methods of infusing boiling water for mashing out and it's potential for tanin extraction and my answer has always been that I mix it so quickly that it only stays that hot for 30 seconds. Now I wonder about steam injection and how hot it is coming out of the ports. It seems to me that unless you're really getting a good stir, some spots of the mash could reach 220F+. Any concerns there?

This is fun engineering an all but I still like the simplicity of direct heat, constant recirculating MLTs. What batch size are you aspiring to Yuri?
 
I wonder how much mixing you would need. You are basically talking about the same thing as the frother on a espresso machine, but delivering it from the bottom. I would think there would be enough bubbles to give you decent mixing as long as your mash is not too thick. You might have a bit of a problem though getting the steam to come out of your manifold evenly with more coming out where it first enters the kettle. Seeing as how you will be using a false bottom you are less concerned about the filtering efficiency of the manifold. I would have fewer openings (or smaller ones) close to the steam source, and more further away to get more even steam distribution. I'd do a bunch of testing with compressed air. Maybe even some other cheap material to make a test manifold as long as it has the same ID to experiment with opening placement.

Going along with the frothing attachment analogy. When the barristas use this, they don't scorch the milk! Steam is only 212F, no different than boiling water. I has a lot more energy though being a gas, that is why it burns so bad. The only way to get steam over 212F is to pressurize it.

My only concern would be pockets of excessive heat that might denature your enzymes. A slow mix might be enough to take care of that though. I'd be tempted to go with something on the order of 10 RPM or less. If you put your mixer paddles at a fairly steep angle, more like a fan blade that may help to prevent compaction.

What I would like someday is a steam jacketed pot. I keep an eye out at auctions, restaurant going out of business sales, etc. hoping to find a reasonably priced one.
 
I'm aware that steam at ambient is only 212 but when you use a pressure cooker, it is under pressure and probably closer to 230F. Does it immediately cool down to 212 as soon as the pressure is released? I'm not worried about scorching so much as denaturing enzymes in the direct line of fire.
 
I'm looking at 15-18 gallon batches with this system.

The steam will be 230 to 240 degrees F (see the link in my signature about steam).

With regard to denaturing enzymes - I've been using a steam manifold system in my cooler mash tun for at least 5 brews now, and I've achieved 80% efficiency or better each time.

I slept on a few of these ideas, and the suggestion of steam injection through the stirring paddles is looking more attractive. It's probably not as difficult as it seemed at first.

I just bought a heavy duty AC gear motor that runs 80 RPM. I'll use a gear, chain, or pulley drive system to get greater than a 2:1 reduction for stirring the mash. I think 30 RPM or less should do nicely.

I'm now contemplating plumbing this thing with a steam mixer as well as direct steam injection. Again, I'm looking for maximum flexibility while keeping things reasonably simple. I know it's beginning to seem complex (or maybe seemed that way from the start), but so far all of the ideas are quite manageable with the tools I have at hand.
 
FWIW, Steam is 243* at 12psi. I don't know about your plumbing, but I can create 12psi of head with 6ft or so 3/16 vinyl tubing....
 
pjj2ba said:
I wonder how much mixing you would need.

My only concern would be pockets of excessive heat that might denature your enzymes. A slow mix might be enough to take care of that though. I'd be tempted to go with something on the order of 10 RPM or less. If you put your mixer paddles at a fairly steep angle, more like a fan blade that may help to prevent compaction.

What I would like someday is a steam jacketed pot. I keep an eye out at auctions, restaurant going out of business sales, etc. hoping to find a reasonably priced one.
Click to expand...
It's been my experience with the steam manifold that you need a fair bit of mixing. I'm just waiting for my local junk purveyor to put a clearance on a windshield wiper motor and that's what I plan to use. I intend on using aluminum fan blades as well. Maybe even a combination of different diameters and pitch.

Your steam jacket idea has me thinking. Maybe I'll just get 8 feet of 1/2"ss tubing, line it with 1/4" ss tubing, and wrap it into a coil. Swagelok fittings will work nice to put steam through the 1/4" tube while wort recircs through the outside (DIY CFC style in reverse). Might alleviate some fears I have of steam directly into the wort...
 

Similar threads

Kornssj
Bottom of kettle scourced. Is this an issue?
Replies
17
Views
1K
Deadalus
Deadalus
I
SS Brewtech InfuSSion Mash Tun Custom Heater
Replies
7
Views
938
Indian_villager
I
B
For Sale 3-Vessel Single-Tier Direct-Fire Beer Brewstand Pilot System
Replies
0
Views
564
BrettinSD
B
S
For Sale Equipment spring cleaning sale (Phoenix AZ)
Replies
3
Views
763
schard84
S
B
Walnut coffin Keezer
Replies
15
Views
1K
Clint Yeastwood
Clint Yeastwood
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top