I don't believe this grain bill - brewdog elvis juice

[p_p]

Hi, my mate has asked me to try replicating a beer from BrewDog called Elvis Juice.
A grapefruit infused, redish 12 SRM, 6.5% IPA. Very nice indeed.
The beer feels well attenuated, not very dry, medium body.

The brewery publishes a recipe for homebrewers but I don't really think the grain bill is accurate.
84% pale malt, 16% caramalt, no colour specified (I assume 45L to get the colour).
Mash 150F (65.5C) for 75 min.
OG 1.060, FG 1.010 using WY1056.

Do you think a beer with that amount of crystal will ferment down to 1.010?
I really don't think so.

I was planning to cut the crystal to 5% and make up the colour using a bit of carafa and a bit of roast.

Any advice?
Thanks
pp

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

That's for a 5 gallon batch?

Try parsing it out in beersmith, or one of the free online calculators.

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

In Beersmith, 84% Pale 2-Row and 16% Caramalt 55L (it gives 15, 35, and 55 options) gives me 12 SRM and 1.011 OG, with 1056 and a 72% efficiency assumption. With 70%, it comes up as 1.010.

 

[p_p]

I don't think the batch size matters, or does it?

WYeast declare attenuation levels for 1056 between 73-77%
With that amount of of caramel and mashing at 150, I expect to be mid-low end of the range (finger in the air guess).

To go fro 1.060 to 1.010 we are talking 83% attenuation.

I appreciate this is apparent attenuation, so the higher the OG, the higher the attenuation will seem to be, but these numbers are a bit off I think.
My calculator tells me 1.014 FG for 77% attenuation. I'll plug the numbers in brewers friend just in case, but I don't expect different results.

 

[GeorgeH2013]

Where do you see their recipes published?

 

[orionol73]

Where do you see their recipes published?

https://www.brewdog.com/diydog

 

[55x11]

Hi, my mate has asked me to try replicating a beer from BrewDog called Elvis Juice.
A grapefruit infused, redish 12 SRM, 6.5% IPA. Very nice indeed.
The beer feels well attenuated, not very dry, medium body.

The brewery publishes a recipe for homebrewers but I don't really think the grain bill is accurate.
84% pale malt, 16% caramalt, no colour specified (I assume 45L to get the colour).
Mash 150F (65.5C) for 75 min.
OG 1.060, FG 1.010 using WY1056.

Do you think a beer with that amount of crystal will ferment down to 1.010?
I really don't think so.

I was planning to cut the crystal to 5% and make up the colour using a bit of carafa and a bit of roast.

Any advice?
Thanks
pp

If you mash low and use well-attenuating yeast, you should get 1.010 or below. I routinely get to 1.004-1.006 with about 10% of crystal malts in my IPAs

 

[p_p]

If you mash low and use well-attenuating yeast, you should get 1.010 or below. I routinely get to 1.004-1.006 with about 10% of crystal malts in my IPAs

I understand. However I don't think the beer will finish a 1.010 if followed to the letter.

I am thinking of going with wlp090 hoping for better attenuation.... Or sticking with the recipe and just letting the beer finish at 1.013 - 14.

What would you do?

 

[p_p]

https://www.brewdog.com/diydog

It is a nice collection of recipes... Not sure how accurate the are however.

Punk IPA, the first one in the list is an extremely popular beer over here for those starting to enjoy craft beer. I'd love to replicate it, but it takes like 7 different, no so easy to source, hops. Would be expensive to brew.

 

[55x11]

I understand. However I don't think the beer will finish a 1.010 if followed to the letter.

I am thinking of going with wlp090 hoping for better attenuation.... Or sticking with the recipe and just letting the beer finish at 1.013 - 14.

What would you do?

I would cut it but keep it to 10% of the bill. I use WLP-90 all the time and it's a beast - it will give you below 1.010 for sure. Provided you mash at 150.
I usually don't like too many crystal malts in IPAs which should be very dry, but you do need a little bit for color and body/mouthfeel. Otherwise it tastes a bit bland.

 

[imasickboy]

I would take the recipe they provided at face value. If they say that's their recipe, then who am I to say it isn't?

It flat out says 83.3% attenuation in the recipe, so it's up to us to make our yeast hit that. Oxygenate well, use a proper pitch amount, and keep temps in the optimum range. That's all you can do.

I will say that even though they likely used a 35 Lovibond caramalt, (Simpsons, probably), it's not a highly kilned malt. There are still fermentable sugars in there that will be converted during mashing. It's certainly more fermentable than the darker crystal malts.

I think it's completely reasonable to hit 83% attenuation with that recipe. Give it a shot.

 

[55x11]

I would take the recipe they provided at face value. If they say that's their recipe, then who am I to say it isn't?

It flat out says 83.3% attenuation in the recipe, so it's up to us to make our yeast hit that. Oxygenate well, use a proper pitch amount, and keep temps in the optimum range. That's all you can do.

I will say that even though they likely used a 35 Lovibond caramalt, (Simpsons, probably), it's not a highly kilned malt. There are still fermentable sugars in there that will be converted during mashing. It's certainly more fermentable than the darker crystal malts.

I think it's completely reasonable to hit 83% attenuation with that recipe. Give it a shot.

Just to give you an example. My last IPA (15Gallon batch) was:
US 2-row, 78.9%
Crystal-10 9.2%
Cara-Pils 7.9%
Caravienne 3.9%

Using WLP-090 (Super Yeast) I got it from 1.070 down to 1.005, in less than 1 week (fermenting at 68F)

 

[crusader1612]

Just to give you an example. My last IPA (15Gallon batch) was:
US 2-row, 78.9%
Crystal-10 9.2%
Cara-Pils 7.9%
Caravienne 3.9%

Using WLP-090 (Super Yeast) I got it from 1.070 down to 1.005, in less than 1 week (fermenting at 68F)

21% Specialty malts and you get 1.005?!?!
Jesus christ that some beastly yeast.

I would say at 16% Caramalt (Lightly colorued, you could easily hit 1.010 if you mash low like suggested (149F would be a good plan to be sure)

 

[jtp137]

Just to give you an example. My last IPA (15Gallon batch) was:

US 2-row, 78.9%

Crystal-10 9.2%

Cara-Pils 7.9%

Caravienne 3.9%



Using WLP-090 (Super Yeast) I got it from 1.070 down to 1.005, in less than 1 week (fermenting at 68F)

Mash temp

 

[Yooper]

I understand. However I don't think the beer will finish a 1.010 if followed to the letter.

I am thinking of going with wlp090 hoping for better attenuation.... Or sticking with the recipe and just letting the beer finish at 1.013 - 14.

What would you do?

Remember that the average attenuation is just that- average. Mashing at 150 and having a mash pH of 5.3 or so would mean a pretty decent fermentability profile, and it should easily get to 1.010 with 1056.

 

[55x11]

21% Specialty malts and you get 1.005?!?!
Jesus christ that some beastly yeast.

I would say at 16% Caramalt (Lightly colorued, you could easily hit 1.010 if you mash low like suggested (149F would be a good plan to be sure)

mash temp was 148F-149F.

 

[p_p]

Thank you all for your replies.
I've learnt a lot just by reading this thread alone.

I will stick to the recipe and try to get a good level of attenuation by managing wort production and fermentation.

Again, thanks!

 

[p_p]

Remember that the average attenuation is just that- average. Mashing at 150 and having a mash pH of 5.3 or so would mean a pretty decent fermentability profile, and it should easily get to 1.010 with 1056.

You were right. I followed the advice given in this thread and sure enough I got the attenuation with 16% of crystals (mostly 30L and some 90L) using WLP001.

On a single infusion system I dropped half the pale malt targeting ~69°C (156) and kept for 15 min. Then dropped the rest of the grains and managed to hit 64°C (147) and kept there for about 80min, dropped a couple of degrees during this time.

Did my best to keep the pH on the low side, my pH meter showed 5.3.

Based on online calculators, I cultured a bit more yeast than needed. I don't have pure oxygen so I added some of the wort to the Erlenmeyer where I had the yeast and shook it for a while, before pitching.

Fermented at steady temp and ramp up a bit towards the end, added dry hops right before hitting FG, which ended up a tad under 1.010 for around 84% apparent attenuation.

The one thing that got me puzzled is that the wort measured pH 5.2 post boil and the beer pH measured 4.7 (?) mind you I have a joke of a pH meter, it did showed 4.0 when dunked in the buffer ..

Why 4.7? Could the 5oz of dry hop shifted the pH up?

Either way, thanks for the advice. Judging by the hydrometer sample, I think this is going to be one of the best beers I brewed so far.

 

[joshesmusica]

I've tried that beer at a festival recently. For that particular recipe, I think you're focusing on the wrong details that make it such a great beer. Ending anywhere between 1.009-1.013 would be acceptable in my opinion.

The keys to that one are 1) the fact that they have grapefruit and orange peels in the mash, late in the boil, and along with the dry hops, and 2) the hop varieties selected.

This might be one of the (if not THE) best brewdogs beers out there.

 

[Yooper]

You were right. I followed the advice given in this thread and sure enough I got the attenuation with 16% of crystals (mostly 30L and some 90L) using WLP001.

On a single infusion system I dropped half the pale malt targeting ~69°C (156) and kept for 15 min. Then dropped the rest of the grains and managed to hit 64°C (147) and kept there for about 80min, dropped a couple of degrees during this time.

Did my best to keep the pH on the low side, my pH meter showed 5.3.

Based on online calculators, I cultured a bit more yeast than needed. I don't have pure oxygen so I added some of the wort to the Erlenmeyer where I had the yeast and shook it for a while, before pitching.

Fermented at steady temp and ramp up a bit towards the end, added dry hops right before hitting FG, which ended up a tad under 1.010 for around 84% apparent attenuation.

The one thing that got me puzzled is that the wort measured pH 5.2 post boil and the beer pH measured 4.7 (?) mind you I have a joke of a pH meter, it did showed 4.0 when dunked in the buffer ..

Why 4.7? Could the 5oz of dry hop shifted the pH up?

Either way, thanks for the advice. Judging by the hydrometer sample, I think this is going to be one of the best beers I brewed so far.

The pH drops during the boil. The yeast then change the pH during fermentation.
Finished beer tends to have a pH of 3.8-4.5 or so.

 

[JKaranka]

Just to mention that people underestimate how fermentable the sugars of crystal malts are. Someone carried out a few experiments a few years back and the sugars in crystal malts are pretty fermentable. In a sliding scale, if your pale malt is as fermentable as it gets, the lighter kilned crystal malts are around 80+% of that.

Should dig out the reference somewhere if I wasn't so tired today.

 

[p_p]

The pH drops during the boil. The yeast then change the pH during fermentation.
Finished beer tends to have a pH of 3.8-4.5 or so.

I understand, however my belief was that ale fermentation would cause a drop of around 1 full point, give or take. I expected 5.2 wort to drop down to around 4.2-4.4 .. not 4.7. Then again I read somewhere that the presence of dry hops will rise the pH slightly ..

Not sure, either way, tastes fine to me and I look forward to compare it side by side with the real thing which is now readily available in many local stores.

thanks

 

[p_p]

I've tried that beer at a festival recently. For that particular recipe, I think you're focusing on the wrong details that make it such a great beer. Ending anywhere between 1.009-1.013 would be acceptable in my opinion.

The keys to that one are 1) the fact that they have grapefruit and orange peels in the mash, late in the boil, and along with the dry hops, and 2) the hop varieties selected.

This might be one of the (if not THE) best brewdogs beers out there.

You are probably right, I managed to source the right hops and these smelled very nice. For the grapefruit, I used a tincture at packing time. It is just easier and, having done some experiments before, I feel confident that it will get me close enough. I will probably fall short in grapefruit flavour, but the aroma should be fine.

The next thing to focus was my disbelieve in relation to the attenuation they declare in the recipe ... Wasn't a problem as many mentioned in this thread.

thanks for your input
p_p

 

[Uncruliar]

I am planning on brewing this recipe sometime as it is my wife's fave beer. The recipe is a bit vague on how much orange and grapefruit zest to use and when to add it so I am wondering what other people did.

 

[p_p]

I am planning on brewing this recipe sometime as it is my wife's fave beer. The recipe is a bit vague on how much orange and grapefruit zest to use and when to add it so I am wondering what other people did.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I have been using a grapefruit-orange tincture and adding a couple of drops directly in the glass.
This has been working very well plus it allows me to choose whether I do want the grapefruit in or not. I am not sure I can go through full 5 gal of grapefruit infused beer.

Albeit using a tincture will not give you the exact same flavour profile you get in Elvis Juice ... then again, I have changed the recipe anyway to my personal liking.

The grain-bill and hop schedule published by the brewer has been an extremely good starting point for me.

good luck

 

[joshesmusica]

I've done 50g each/20L batch (which has the goal of 19L in the keg) with 5 mins left in the boil, and then again in the fermenter. So that's 100g total in 20L - or 5g/l - or 2.5g/l per addition.

The one that goes in the fermenter sits in a bit of alcohol with as little flavor as possible, and just enough to cover the peel. I'd also do the peel myself, ensuring as little as the pithy white part as possible. The reason I started doing fresh instead of dried and packaged is because the dry ones will inevitably sponge up the alcohol in the tincture, but also a bit in the wort as well. I think some people, when doing a tincture, discard the actual peel and just pour in the liquid. I don't. I throw it all in the fermenter. The alcohol is basically just used to sanitize the peel, and that's why I only do it for a few days. So it's not necessarily a true tincture.

I've honestly not done one with grapefruit yet though. I've done a hoppy witbier with sweet orange peels a few times with this method, and I've done orange and lemon peels in an american wheat once. In the witbier I think having it in both was good enough because any herbal flavor from boiling the peels matches up pretty well with the character from the yeast. But in the American wheat, if I do it again (likely this summer), I'll cut out the boil addition. I did have some feedback from some people that they really liked it (one member on here even said it was one of the best beers he's had), but for me the boil addition just added too much herbal flavor when I was looking for simply citrusy/juicy. This was not heavily hopped, so possibly in a pale ale or ipa, that flavor will go unnoticed and all you'll get is extra juicy flavor from having both additions.

BUT after having had Elvis Juice several more times, and in the same evening as other hoppy beers, I gotta say that sometimes the flavor actually begins to be almost like candied orange/grapefruit peels - as if it also brings in a sweetness in the back end. Some may be fond of this, I can't stand sweetness in my beers at all. So as p_p said, I'm not sure I would want a full keg of something like this. Though, I will say, that it could be some crystal malts reacting with the citrus in this particular beer that gives me the sweet impression. Because, in my beers that I always try to get quite dry, I've not had this come through.

 

[joshesmusica]

As an off topic, if anybody's into lots of late hops, and also into witbiers, one of the best ones I made went with this method of sweet orange peel - 50g @ 5mins, 50g in the semi-tincture (which is put in with the dry hops). First bitter addition to 9.3 IBUs. Then 45g Bramling Cross @ 5 mins - 6.2 IBUs. Then 20g crushed coriander seed @ 5 mins. WLP400 for the yeast. Dry hop 50g each of Azacca and Citra which are put in at the same time as the semi-tincture and left to sit for 5 days. After going through a few different renditions of this recipe, this has been the best one so far.

 

[Uncruliar]

I had my first bottle of my Elvis Juice clone yesterday. I did a blind taste test on my wife and son between a bottle of the real thing and a bottle of mine. She picked correctly but he didn't. My beer was a bit more bitter and a little less grapefruity than the real thing but very drinkable. Definitely going to be brewed again but I will have to decide whether to tweak the recipe and get closer to the BrewDog version.

 

[lowe3000]

I had my first bottle of my Elvis Juice clone yesterday. I did a blind taste test on my wife and son between a bottle of the real thing and a bottle of mine. She picked correctly but he didn't. My beer was a bit more bitter and a little less grapefruity than the real thing but very drinkable. Definitely going to be brewed again but I will have to decide whether to tweak the recipe and get closer to the BrewDog version.

Hey I recently made this beer and followed the recipe reasonably well but it definitely tastes a little different to the real thing. could you break down your method so I could compare it to mine? if you didn't mind!