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Bobby_M said:
Not only that, one person holding a grudge and hitting a post with a couple negatives would be outweighed by all the legit thumbs-ups. The system works pretty well on youtube.
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:off: I wanna know which 506 asshats gave this a dislike...(actually 505, since I know Soperbrew was one of them :D)

 
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Bobby_M said:
Also, I wouldn't advocate any sort of censoring of unpopular posts. Just because it's deemed a less popular opinion doesn't make it less worthy of display here. In fact, we like to point and laugh as silly things people say.
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True; if we simply censored posts we disagreed with, none of us would be EACs. :p
 
BrookdaleBrew said:
I seriously doubt that. If I have something else to add that hasn't already been stated, I'm going to mention it, not just "thumbs up" someone else.
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I think you are wrong. Many people will just "thumbs down" a post without explanation, its human nature.



How so? Why should I have to back myself up if I agree with someone 100%? Reiterating what has already been said makes no difference.
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Possibly true for the thumbs up, but definitely not true for the thumbs down.



Not at all. As mentioned, if I have something else to add, I'm going to add it. If someone gets a lot of "thumbs down" then there is probably something inherently wrong with their post to begin with and they should probably take a step back and analyze what they said. If they can't handle a little criticism then they shouldn't be on an internet forum to begin with, right?
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So we agree that this system would have the tendency to drive people away? Either because "there is probably something inherently wrong with their post to begin with and they should probably take a step back" or "if they can't handle a little criticism then they shouldn't be on an internet forum"
 
My first thought was that having the ability to rate people somehow sounded good... not so sure though.. a forum is supposed to be a place where everyone is basically equal and can be heard, not just an elite few who have been around a long time and gotten a lot of people to rate them well...

If you read for a while you will decide the folks you want to believe.
 
Bobby_M said:
The seriousness of a thread in general would likely lead to the seriousness of the rating system used in that thread.

Concerns about stalking and harassment are unfounded for the most part. If someone has that much time on their hands to create a bunch of phony accounts just to continually thumbs-down someone's post, go for it. It's only a forum. Not only that, one person holding a grudge and hitting a post with a couple negatives would be outweighed by all the legit thumbs-ups. The system works pretty well on youtube.

People won't just +1 for the most part. Sure, there are people that post +1 and that's it, but it's usually followed by an explanation of why they agree. Then again, if propping a well thought out post adds credibility and there's nothing else to say, why is that problem. It's not like the value of a forum is measured on how many individual posts a thread has. That is only evidence of post whoring culture.

Also, I wouldn't advocate any sort of censoring of unpopular posts. Just because it's deemed a less popular opinion doesn't make it less worthy of display here. In fact, we like to point and laugh as silly things people say.

If we're not interested at all in rating or overall forum opinion, you might as well remove the POST thumbs up/down, THREAD rating system and poll functionality so that everyone just discusses everything and all ideas are equal.
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+1.... ;)

I agree. I don't see "stalking" or "grudges" being an issue (if you're concerned about people holding grudges, you probably don't want to have the debate forum).
 
theonetrueruss said:
My first thought was that having the ability to rate people somehow sounded good... not so sure though.. a forum is supposed to be a place where everyone is basically equal and can be heard, not just an elite few who have been around a long time and gotten a lot of people to rate them well...

If you read for a while you will decide the folks you want to believe.
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Rating PEOPLE is a bad idea.

Rating POSTS might be a good idea. I don't think entirely necessary, but probably a good thing overall.
 
Pilgarlic said:
This forum isn't an authoritative reference or a peer-reviewed academic environment. It's a forum. You'll get good accurate information, inaccurate information, something in between and information that might be thought "bad" today only to be "accepted" tomorrow. It's up to you to sort it out, just like in the rest of the world. If you don't want to exercise that sort of judgment, arm yourself with whatever comprehensive reference book you prefer and choose to believe it all. But don't rely on two, because they'll contradict one another... then you'll need a moderator again. Darn! Gathering information and making your own informed choices seems almost inevitable, huh?
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I am fully endorsing this post. You really just have to take info from a variety of sources and personal experiences and sort it all out yourself.

I can even think of a few big-time posters in here who many people seem to rely on that spew plenty of misinformation...one in particular. Again, don't assume anyone on here is always right.
 
Pappers_ said:
So we agree that this system would have the tendency to drive people away? Either because "there is probably something inherently wrong with their post to begin with and they should probably take a step back" or "if they can't handle a little criticism then they shouldn't be on an internet forum"
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If that is what drives them away then they probably wouldn't last long here (or on any other forum) anyway.
 
I'd never want something in place like this. I don't think it would work. Just read the information and make up your mind based on common sense. Anyone with anything important to say will explain it at least a little. The +1's are concurs and back up the post they refer to.

And even the best of us on here don't always do things the same way. For example, I tend to listen to what Yooper has to say about brewing, because I know she has a ton of experience. Her advice on driving a pontoon boat on the other hand...
 
BrookdaleBrew said:
If that is what drives them away then they probably wouldn't last long here (or on any other forum) anyway.
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You're right. And I don't like the 'driving people away' language I used. Its not about driving people away - its about encouraging member's participation. I think a a rating system would have the tendency to discourage members' participation.
 
Pappers_ said:
I think you are wrong. Many people will just "thumbs down" a post without explanation, its human nature.





Possibly true for the thumbs up, but definitely not true for the thumbs down.





So we agree that this system would have the tendency to drive people away? Either because "there is probably something inherently wrong with their post to begin with and they should probably take a step back" or "if they can't handle a little criticism then they shouldn't be on an internet forum"
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I think some of this is overstated by virtue of the fact that we're not just a forum full of ********. A post recommending fly sparging isn't going to invite a storm of thumbs down from batch spargers. A post recommending dry yeast isn't going to get a storm of thumbs down from stirplate owners. If someone's post gets an overwhelmingly negative rating, it's a safe bet that (a) it's not entirely without merit, and (b) somebody will have something more to say about it.

On my other forum last night, some guy was advising a 16 year old guy not to go with his pregnant 16 year old gf to pregnancy counseling because he might give himself away as the father and be forced to register as a sex offender. Not only did the forum (rightly) downvote him into oblivion but they also took the time to explain why he was wrong to say that.
 
I think the stalking/grudges thing is an issue. I've seen it done on other forums,even to a beer drinking all around good guy like me. Could you believe it? I'm such a great guy,sometimes even I can't stand me!
:D Seriously though,There are those out there that live for what we used to call "flaming" others. Just to see what angry replies they'd come up with next. Which of course disrupts the whole conversation,there intention from the get go. They're easy to spot.
 
I guess I can see why a new brewer on here might get frustrated because there is soooo much information and in some cases it is quite difficult to get a clear answer. The thing with forums is that you need to read A LOT and then come to a conclusion on your own. It must be frustrating when a noob asks a question and gets only three answers of three differing opinions. However, when I go onto forums on subject areas I know very little about to get more information, I know that there is going to be a lot of BS combined with information from people with great knowledge and experience. I really don't think it is hard at all to sort out the good from the bad. Also, when you are new at anything and trying to learn, it is generally not a good idea to trust only one source. You should always check information from one source against others to see if there are differences of opinion. The more differences there are, the likelier it is that it is a controversial issue. This should be a clear indicator that you need to go deeper in your research. Bottom line, read everthing you can here and everywhere else including published sources.

IMO a rating system would make this forum much less fun for me and I think it would also discourage less experienced brewers from speaking up. Maybe all this has already been said but I read the whole damn thread and couldn't help but add my 2 cents. Another thing to consider is in the amount of time it took me to read just this thread alone, I could have read the first two chapters in How to Brew quite easily. I also find it difficult to operate my laptop while sitting on the john so I find that is a great place to read the actual books which will give a great foundation of knowledge and help sort out the BS.

By the way, sanitation is really not important and you can make a great pale ale by adding 2 lbs of black malt.
 
unionrdr said:
I think the stalking/grudges thing is an issue. I've seen it done on other forums,even to a beer drinking all around good guy like me. Could you believe it? I'm such a great guy,sometimes even I can't stand me!
:D Seriously though,There are those out there that live for what we used to call "flaming" others. Just to see what angry replies they'd come up with next. Which of course disrupts the whole conversation,there intention from the get go. They're easy to spot.
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Flamers and trolls tend to get banned pretty fast around here. Other than the Debate Forum and the occasional legendary dust-up about airlock bubbles, we tend to be a pretty amicable group of people.
 
Pappers_ said:
I've seen it happen on HBT, with other members. A public ranking system would just add fuel to it.
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+1 A few perfectly capable and experienced brewers have left over "discussions" on their brewing practices. I think a rating system will only encourage more of this.

I think we can all agree that Miller Lite tastes great AND is less filling. We don't need a rating system to find out which one is true.
 
Pappers_ said:
You're right. And I don't like the 'driving people away' language I used. Its not about driving people away - its about encouraging member's participation. I think a a rating system would have the tendency to discourage members' participation.
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Would it? If a new member comes on and is overwhelmed by all the contradictory advice he's being given, is that encouraging participation? If someone jumps in out of nowhere and starts rambling about autolysis and how everyone else on this board is wrong about it, should we be encouraging that type of participation?

I guess it comes down to whether it's more important to for us to be a source of learning and knowledge about brewing here, or whether we want that learning and knowledge to develop out of the conversations we have on the forum.
 
bernerbrau said:
If someone jumps in out of nowhere and starts rambling about autolysis and how everyone else on this board is wrong about it, should we be encouraging that type of participation?
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If the rambler has evidence to suggest that he/she may be right; then yes.

Just because 99 people say one thing, doesn't mean 1 person who says something different is wrong - especially if there are circumstances where the 1 person is right.

This post brought to you by a brewer who was dinged by a BJCP judge for autolysis. :p
 
bernerbrau said:
Flamers and trolls tend to get banned pretty fast around here...
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But that's just it, what we have now works quite well.

I for one don't like the idea of an anonymous "rating" system. Even when I start a poll I choose the kind where we can see who voted for what. Quite frankly, I never usually like it when people offer their opinion anonymously in general.
 
Homercidal said:
+1 A few perfectly capable and experienced brewers have left over "discussions" on their brewing practices. I think a rating system will only encourage more of this.
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When experienced folks get into heated arguments about brewing techniques, the longer the conversation goes on, the less likely people are to continue signing on to the thread to vote on individual posts. If the people arguing are goaded on by the votes, then when the votes peter out, the thread dies on its own.

Homercidal said:
I think we can all agree that Miller Lite tastes great AND is less filling. We don't need a rating system to find out which one is true.
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I don't think the issue is truth so much as providing a snapshot of the general opinion of the community at large.
 
AZ_IPA said:
If the rambler has evidence to suggest that he/she may be right; then yes.

Just because 99 people say one thing, doesn't mean 1 person who says something different is wrong - especially if there are circumstances where the 1 person is right.

This post brought to you by a brewer who was dinged by a BJCP judge for autolysis. :p
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OK, but again, we're not talking about truth here, or burying dissenting opinions, but simply a metric to gauge the community's overall opinion on something, which in the majority of cases can be very helpful.

Also, it seems to be the case in my experience with this type of system that when someone brings meaningful data to the table with regard to a dissenting opinion, and doesn't just rant, the votes tend to be much kinder.

wildwest450 said:
Welcome to my world.:D


_
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If it's any consolation, I always use the set and forget method when I keg now, and your little rant about nobody listening to you about salts in the Reinheitsgebot thread was the push I needed to finally get me looking into adjusting my water chemistry and not just pretending 5.2 was helping my beer. I'm shipping off tap samples to Ward Labs for analysis this week.
 
brownie - what about people in the majority opinion that rant? That happens A LOT here...and IMO discourages those that may have facts to support a minority opinion from participating...
 
bernerbrau said:
If it's any consolation, I always use the set and forget method when I keg now, and your little rant about nobody listening to you about salts in the Reinheitsgebot thread was the push I needed to finally get me looking into adjusting my water chemistry and not just pretending 5.2 was helping my beer. I'm shipping off tap samples to Ward Labs for analysis this week.
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I can die happy now.
For the record, don't confuse passion with ranting.;)

_
 
Yooper said:
One of the issues I have with the thumbs up or thumbs down is we get those everyday (mods see them) and sometimes it's just someone who doesn't agree with a statement of "S05 yeast is a good yeast!"
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And the other issue being the up/down vote icons are too darn close to Quote! I've accidentally thumbs downed a few people's posts just going to click on Quote, especially when doing it from my phone where things are even smaller :)


Rev.
 
Hey does the 'thumbs down' initiate an email to the poster, like the 'thumbs up' does? Go ahead and thumbs down this post (or pick any other of my 4,500 posts worthy of a thumbs down).
 
Pappers_ said:
I've seen it happen on HBT, with other members. A public ranking system would just add fuel to it.
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That's my whole point in a nutshell. Same argument,different site. But from what I've read thus far,it sounds like the same outlook as the folks that run probetalk,for instance. Good moral standards are great,within reason by reasonable adults.
 
Homercidal said:
And even the best of us on here don't always do things the same way. For example, I tend to listen to what Yooper has to say about brewing, because I know she has a ton of experience. Her advice on driving a pontoon boat on the other hand...
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Hey, I"m an EXCELLENT pontoon boat driver!!!! You're the one who's afraid of a little bit of water. It's not easy to sink a pontoon boat, you know!

I've seen some bad advice here on the forum, and sometimes it's been given by me. I've seen some great advice. I think as a group we should just all "stick up" for what we know is good advice, and say something if we see something we think is incorrect. Not in a confrontational way, but just "I don't think fermenting at 95 degrees is really a good idea because XXXXXXX....."

The great thing about brewing is it's not just a science but an art. I have expressed my opinions on the Cooper's Kits, and even called them garbage (!), but I also acknowledge that many brewers have used them and enjoyed them. That doesn't make be right and them wrong, or vice versa. If I'm not forced to drink their beer, what do I care? As long as I explain why my experiences have been different, and am pleasant about it, then I think it's ok.
 
Yooper said:
Hey, I"m an EXCELLENT pontoon boat driver!!!! You're the one who's afraid of a little bit of water. It's not easy to sink a pontoon boat, you know!

I've seen some bad advice here on the forum, and sometimes it's been given by me. I've seen some great advice. I think as a group we should just all "stick up" for what we know is good advice, and say something if we see something we think is incorrect. Not in a confrontational way, but just "I don't think fermenting at 95 degrees is really a good idea because XXXXXXX....."

The great thing about brewing is it's not just a science but an art. I have expressed my opinions on the Cooper's Kits, and even called them garbage (!), but I also acknowledge that many brewers have used them and enjoyed them. That doesn't make be right and them wrong, or vice versa. If I'm not forced to drink their beer, what do I care? As long as I explain why my experiences have been different, and am pleasant about it, then I think it's ok.
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All I know is that I was taken by surprise. I really expected some sort of klaxon to sound indicating we were preparing to initiate a dive maneuver.

But yeah, I think the ratings system is uneeded. I think it will inevitably cause some people to get a big head. And just because 80% of the users concur that they do something one way, doesn't mean it's the best way for everyone, every time. I think it's not hard to figure out what works for you.

Oh, damn, the snow is falling again. What will the robins do now?
 
AZ_IPA said:
brownie - what about people in the majority opinion that rant? That happens A LOT here...and IMO discourages those that may have facts to support a minority opinion from participating...
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This is true... on the site with post ratings that I keep referring back to, people who repeatedly and eloquently harp on the main points that are the majority opinion tend to get thousands of positive votes. The phenomenon is referred to over there as "the hive mind". But I think it already exists here in a fashion, as you stated. I don't know that a rating system would intensify the problem or not.

However, there are many cases here where the choice really does come down to a matter of opinion. When that happens, the majority of people who disagree aren't likely to thumbs-down the other person just for preferring, say, a racking cane to an autosiphon.

It also seems to me that the community body of knowledge here is still valuable enough that a rating system would give very good results much of the time.

I also suggested a "sandbox" forum for unconventional/unpopular ideas where there are no votes for in order to mitigate the possibility of valid minority opinions getting trampled under the loud voices of the big guys. Hell, that might even be a decent idea for a subforum here without a rating system, where you can go to discuss weird/untested/frowned upon stuff and not get flak for going against the grain.

wildwest450 said:
I can die happy now.
For the record, don't confuse passion with ranting.;)
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Duly noted.

By the way, you're different in person than I had pictured. I thought to myself, "Hm. He doesn't look like the kind of guy who would put up two well-endowed women making out as his avatar."
 
bernerbrau said:
By the way, you're different in person than I had pictured. I thought to myself, "Hm. He doesn't look like the kind of guy who would put up two well-endowed women making out as his avatar."
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So now i'm gay? I keed, i'm pretty much an easy going tool in person. This place brings out hidden rage in me sometimes.

_
 
Who's drunk? it just that,the smoker we drink,the player we get...:fro: But,it does help to keep an open mind when faced with an opposing viewpoint. But be careful,you might learn something.
 
I also do not believe that there is that much dis-information here. You must read many posts and many sites to get the full picture.....

Reply to Reply is not your only issue... For example, this site has a strong pro bias on 'primary only', a strong disbelief of HSA, a true hatred of all things implying sugar vs malt addition, a 'dont bother trying it cause I already did' tone to all experimentation threads, a very negative distillation position, etc.... but I faithfully visit every day to expand my knowledge beyond the number of batches I can personally brew.

It is the interwebs, all opinions go to crap once the grain hits the pot, use at your own risk
my 2 cents...
 
Fact: Beer is Good

I now am the owner of the most relevant and indisputable fact on this board. Rate me highly and rate me often for if you disagree with this fact, your peril will be swift and defeat ignominious. I assure you, my high rating will be used for good and not evil even when I discuss things I know nothing about such as welding and

well that's really about it. ;)
 

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