Hop Flavor Difficult

[BoxBrewer]

I have brewed this beer twice, increasing the hop bill substantially the second time around and I am still disappointed at the lack of hop taste. It smells really good and hoppy, and it is fairly bitter, but the hop flavor like that of Dale's Pale Ale is just not there.

The beer is based on the Dale's Pale Ale clone here on HBT.

I am doing a 3 gallon BIAB.

Recipe:
4.5 lbs maris otter
2 lbs munich malt
.25 crystal 60l

Hop bill:
Northern Brewer .5 oz 60 minutes
Cascade .5 oz 30 minutes
Columbus .5 oz 30 minutes
Centennial .5 oz 15 minutes
Cascade 1 oz 5 minutes
Columbus 1 oz 5 minutes

 

[bertsbeer]

Ditch your 5 minute additions. Chill the wort to 185 and then toss your 5 minute additions in. Let those hops sit for 20 minutes. 4 different hops used, I might cut that back some. If you want to taste the hops you might want to consider only use 2 or 3 hops.

 

[BoxBrewer]

Ditch your 5 minute additions. Chill the wort to 185 and then toss your 5 minute additions in. Let those hops sit for 20 minutes. 4 different hops used, I might cut that back some. If you want to taste the hops you might want to consider only use 2 or 3 hops.

Is the whirlpool more likely to add some flavor? Seems like it is usually an aroma thing than flavor. Good advice on the hop types though... I think I was just going for some complexity

 

[bertsbeer]

I would ditch the 60 minute addition as well. Start at 30 minutes with your first hop addition. The flavor will come through some more by using more hops from 30 minutes on. You will use a little more hops to get the same IBU's but if you want flavor this is the best way to accomplish it.

 

[Yooper]

What is your water chemistry like? Sometimes muted hops flavors come from the water chemistry, or the yeast strain chosen.

 

[jmich24]

What is your water chemistry like? Sometimes muted hops flavors come from the water chemistry, or the yeast strain chosen.

My hoppy beers were all meh, before I started playing with my water chemistry.

This is my "hoppy" water:

Calcium(Ca):103 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 15 ppm
Sodium(Na): 8.7 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 32 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 195 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3):109 ppm

I have been very happy ever since making these adjustments.

 

[BoxBrewer]

I would ditch the 60 minute addition as well. Start at 30 minutes with your first hop addition. The flavor will come through some more by using more hops from 30 minutes on. You will use a little more hops to get the same IBU's but if you want flavor this is the best way to accomplish it.

After reading a few lengthy articles, I think you might be right with getting rid of the 60 minute. Might even do all additions 20 minutes or later.

What is your water chemistry like? Sometimes muted hops flavors come from the water chemistry, or the yeast strain chosen.

I am trying to hunt down a water report for my neighborhood. I might have to call them in the morning to see what they can tell me.
Edit: Also, I am using California Ale WLP001

Thanks guys!

 

[beergolf]

The 30 minute additions do nothing for flavor, just add bitterness. Move them inside 20 minutes.

 

[Calichusetts]

I only hop burst all my brews...regardless of style. All addition should be inside 20 minutes. It was the major change that started getting me a "punch in the face" commercial level aroma and flavor. Besides your water...consider a massive dry hop or hop tea.

 

[bobbrews]

Your grain bill is also quite heavy for a hop forward, low abv beer. Replace MO with 2-row, use light Munich instead and cut it to 4-7% total grist, and use either honey malt, or crystal 10 or 20 instead of C60.

Shifting your late additions (15-0) and adding a decent dryhop will also help. For the late boil & dryhop, try a combo of Citra & Amarillo. Something like this...

Northern Brewer .5 oz 60 minutes
Columbus .5 oz 20 minutes
Centennial 1 oz 10 minutes
Cascade .75 oz 0 minutes
Amarillo .75 oz 0 minutes
Cascade or Citra 1 oz dryhop
Amarillo 1 oz dryhop

 

[ludomonster]

Your grain bill is also quite heavy for a hop forward, low abv beer. Replace MO with 2-row, use light Munich instead and cut it to 4-7% total grist, and use either honey malt, or crystal 10 or 20 instead of C60.

You also need more late additions (15-0) and a decent dryhop. For the late boil & dryhop, try a combo of Citra & Amarillo. Something like this...

Northern Brewer .5 oz 60 minutes
Columbus .5 oz 20 minutes
Centennial 1 oz 10 minutes
Cascade .75 oz 0 minutes
Amarillo .75 oz 0 minutes
Cascade or Citra 1 oz dryhop
Amarillo 1 oz dryhop

Maris Otter is darker than pale 2-row, but it's certainly a good malt for pale ales. The choice to use MO over pale 2-row is a matter of taste. As for the Munich and crystal malts, the recipe shouldn't have much more than 15% of any combination of these specialty malts. If you're going to add honey malt, you should keep it subdued. In a 3-gallon recipe, you might want to limit it to 1/8 lb. If you're using software to design the recipe, start with all of your base malt, then switch out some for specialty malts until you get the color you want.

 

[bertsbeer]

I personally wouldn't use the Maris Otter if you are looking for some hop flavor. Use 2-row so the flavor from the hops are accentuated.

 

[dbrewski]

I second (third?) people saying hop burst. All hops inside 20 minutes, maybe even 15. If you use flameout hops, whirlpool for five minutes, then hit the chiller, works for me. When I read this article, I abandoned my CFC and built a heavy duty IC in search of hops flavor. I can hit pitching temps in about 10 minutes and I have been getting great results. I whirlpool with a pump just as in the article.

On the flameout hops and whirlpooling, this was a great thread.

 

[BoxBrewer]

To be honest, I have really liked how the beer has turned out except for the hoppiness. The color is beautiful being a nice copper color, and it has a nice bitterness. I have a feeling that these late hop additions will be the cure... I am sure I'll brew this again some time soon, so I'll have to report back! I got my keg setup, finally, so I won't have to wait for it to carb up in the bottles

 

[Wayne1]

Brian Lutz, who was one of the original brewers at Oskar Blues has opened a new brewery on the Pearl St. Mall in Boulder in the old BJ's.

He is making a "clone" of the original Dale's Pale Ale and has listed these ingredients:

Original Gravity – 1.063 ABV – 6.5 % Color – 9.0 SRM IBUs – 70

Malt Bill
Gambrinus Pale Malt
Munich
Crystal Malt 15L
Crystal Malt 45L
Crystal Malt 77L


Hop Schedule
Northern Brewer – 90 minutes
Columbus – 25 minutes
Cascade – 10 minutes
Centennial – 0 minutes

The early DPA did use a very large dose of Centennial in the whirlpool and no dry hopping.

Good luck!.

 

[BoxBrewer]

Brian Lutz, who was one of the original brewers at Oskar Blues has opened a new brewery on the Pearl St. Mall in Boulder in the old BJ's.

He is making a "clone" of the original Dale's Pale Ale and has listed these ingredients:

No kidding! Do you know the name of it? I'd like to go there.

 

[Wayne1]

No kidding! Do you know the name of it? I'd like to go there.

West Flanders Brewing Company

 

[akuyper]

I am always confused why so many people on here claim that there is no use for the 30/45 minute hop additions, and yet most of the IPA brewers that I respect the most (Vinnie and Matt Brynildson among others) all use this addition. It is not true that these additions don't add flavor, because they do, all additions add flavor. The things that people have stressed to me when struggling to get that punch of hop flavor is checking water chemistry, yeast selection/management, and reducing oxygen pick up.

 

[bobbrews]

Bitterness is a flavor, and when using an equal amount of a high cohumulone hop, like Chinook in otherwise the same grist, that harsh bitter flavor will be more noticeable than an equal amount of a lower cohumulone hop of an equal aa% like Magnum.

But there is really no such thing as a "Flavor" hop addition, though everyone likes to throw it around as if it is a defined term. It does not have a place in between Bittering and Aroma additions like a Green, Yellow, and Red stoplight. And no chart I've read accurately breaks down "Flavor" hop additions as it pertains to addition times. The correct thing would be to combine it with Aroma additions, i.e. Flavoraroma (like Einstein's Spacetime).

The truth is, whenever you add hops to boiling wort (depending on the addition time), you're adding both bitterness and aroma of varying potencies. Early hop additions will bitter more, providing more of that harsh "bitter" flavor, but at the same time, provide less floral/citrus/fruity and other delicate hop aromas released by their volatile oils. Late addition hops will offer more of those hop aromas and in turn, more of those pleasant flavors and less of the harsh. A balance between the two can be had at the 20-15 minute mark. But this does not mean that this is where Flavor is at it's height. It just means that you're sacrificing just enough bitterness and just enough aroma to come to a medium of the two.

Remember, we cannot taste without our sense of smell. So aroma goes hand in hand with flavor. When you near 25-20 minutes left in the boil, much of those volatile aromatic compounds are driven off, so you're essentially just left with bitter flavors that cannot be distinguished by the palate very well, e.g. grapefruit, pine, mango. These flavors are not at their height at the 15 minute mark despite what some people and fancy charts might tell you. They are strongest and most accurately sensed during warm whirlpool steeps and the dryhop.

 

[dbrewski]

I am always confused why so many people on here claim that there is no use for the 30/45 minute hop additions, and yet most of the IPA brewers that I respect the most (Vinnie and Matt Brynildson among others) all use this addition. It is not true that these additions don't add flavor, because they do, all additions add flavor. The things that people have stressed to me when struggling to get that punch of hop flavor is checking water chemistry, yeast selection/management, and reducing oxygen pick up.

Certainly I am not claiming there is no use for those additions. I think the question was about getting more hop flavor, and I was just passing along my experience, what's worked for me, and some of the things I've read. I'm sure they do add flavor and bitterness. I just haven't been able to get face-melting hops flavor without a ton of late additions and if you keep the earlier additions too, the IBU's go through the roof. So if you are going the route of hop-bursting you kind of have to forgo those earlier hops additions. Not saying commercials brewers do or don't do it this way.

 

[Calichusetts]

I am always confused why so many people on here claim that there is no use for the 30/45 minute hop additions, and yet most of the IPA brewers that I respect the most (Vinnie and Matt Brynildson among others) all use this addition. It is not true that these additions don't add flavor, because they do, all additions add flavor. The things that people have stressed to me when struggling to get that punch of hop flavor is checking water chemistry, yeast selection/management, and reducing oxygen pick up.

Interesting...I started late hopping after reading Mr. Malty's article on it. He specifically points out that Firestone Walker is a huge fan of late hopping. I late hop from personal experience...it was the first time I started getting the aroma/flavor I wanted. Dryhopping will usually get you there everytime but I like the fact that I can start the boil, bottle a batch, and then get back to my hop additions without any rushing (2 hour boils for me).

Here is the paragraph from that article, which also talks about Alesmith doing almost 100% IBU from late hopping:

Another brewery that has embraced late hopping is Firestone Walker Brewing Company of Paso Robles, California. Brewmaster Matt Brynildson says, "We practice a lot of late hopping on the majority of our beers. Our main goal with increasing our late hops is big hop aroma and flavor. All of our beers have at least some hops that are added at the beginning of boil for bitterness, as this also helps to keep foaming and boil over down in the kettle, but these kettle charges are minimal to allow for larger late hopping charges. I brewed a flagship beer at another regional brewery where 95%+ of the IBUs were a result of whirlpool hopping."

Here is the article that changed my perspective:

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

 

[BoxBrewer]

Here is the article that changed my perspective:

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

I read the same article the other day. Lots of good info in there. I also read this article and it discusses the boiling point of hop oils which is an interesting thought on getting more hop flavor. By pitching in some hops when the wort is 170 degrees for the whirlpool, the hop oils won't vaporize and remain in the beer.

 

[Calichusetts]

I read the same article the other day. Lots of good info in there. I also read this article and it discusses the boiling point of hop oils which is an interesting thought on getting more hop flavor. By pitching in some hops when the wort is 170 degrees for the whirlpool, the hop oils won't vaporize and remain in the beer.

I do this as well...late hop, flameout. Then I go to the store for ice if I haven't already (literally a few hundred feet away) when I get back I'm under 180...toss in another addition, whirlpool then start setting up my ice bath.

 

[akuyper]

Interesting...I started late hopping after reading Mr. Malty's article on it. He specifically points out that Firestone Walker is a huge fan of late hopping. I late hop from personal experience...it was the first time I started getting the aroma/flavor I wanted. Dryhopping will usually get you there everytime but I like the fact that I can start the boil, bottle a batch, and then get back to my hop additions without any rushing (2 hour boils for me).

Here is the paragraph from that article, which also talks about Alesmith doing almost 100% IBU from late hopping:

Another brewery that has embraced late hopping is Firestone Walker Brewing Company of Paso Robles, California. Brewmaster Matt Brynildson says, "We practice a lot of late hopping on the majority of our beers. Our main goal with increasing our late hops is big hop aroma and flavor. All of our beers have at least some hops that are added at the beginning of boil for bitterness, as this also helps to keep foaming and boil over down in the kettle, but these kettle charges are minimal to allow for larger late hopping charges. I brewed a flagship beer at another regional brewery where 95%+ of the IBUs were a result of whirlpool hopping."

Here is the article that changed my perspective:

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.php

I think I was a little misunderstood. I am still a big fan of the "late additions", but I was just stating the evidence against moving the 30 minute additions inside of 20 minutes. I have had the best experience with a 60, 30, and 0 addition, letting the 0 minute hops steep for a while. This is the same method that Russian River and Firestone Walker use. I have heard that this reduces the presence of "vegetal" characteristics by using an absurd amount of hops to get the appropriate bitterness. There are definitely benefits to both ideas.

 

[akuyper]

I think we can all agree that dry hops are also probably the most important for aroma and even flavor.