Homemade PBW, surfactant ideas?

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_d_

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I've seen all over that PBW is percarbonate and sodium metasilicate with a surfactant and chelate.

The first two ingredients are relatively easy to find, but i don't really know what to use as a surfactant or chelate.

All I can think to do is squirt some dawn in the solution while i'm mixing it:D


Anyone know of a (obtainable) surfactant that would be suitable for a PBW-like product?
 
I agree that EDTA would be a good chelating agent. It is used to bind up Calcium and Magnesium ions. This helps to precipitation of Calcium and Magnesium salts on the walls of the vessel your cleaning solution is in.

This is a problem I have with OxyClean versus PBW. My tap water is pretty high in calcium, and if I leave a carboy full of OxyClean solution overnight, I get mineral deposits all over the walls of the carboy that require soaking in vinegar or Star San and some scrubbing to remove. I have never had this problem with PBW.
 
I had a look at the MSDS and Product Tech Sheet for PBW that I found on Five Star's Website. My best guess for the ingredients in PBW is as follows:

Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Percarbonate- I'm not sure of the ratio of these two materials, but the tech sheet says the product generates 4-5% oxygen, which comes from the decomposition of sodium percarbonate in solution.

Sodium Metasilicate

Sodium Phosphates - these components are used to make a pH buffer. Given the fact that the pH of a PBW solution is ~12. I think that trisodium phosphate is uses, and maybe a small amount of disodium phosphate as well.

Chelating agent - likely EDTA

Surfactant - common ones are linear alkylbenzene sulfonates - something like sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate
 
_d_ said:
Any ideas on a surfactant? how about some powdered soap?
Click to expand...

From what I've been reading, powdered laundry detergent might be a good source of the surfactant you are looking for. A typical laundry powder might be about 15% surfactant (linear or branched alkylbenzene sulfonates), maybe 50% builders such as sodium carbonate and trisodium phosphate, and the rest other ingredients. A fragrance free powdered laundry detergent might be a good place to start.

I think if you were to take a fragrance free laundry powder and add some sodium percarbonate for the active oxygen and some trisodium phosphate to bring the pH up into the 12 range, you would get pretty close to PBW.

I know PBW is expensive, but for me, it works so well that I'm willing to pay for it. Buying it in the larger container brings the price/lb. down a bit, so that does help.
 
i agree the chelater is likely EDTA. I do not know where to buy any though. However, I have never used PBW but I know Oxy does not foam too bad so maybe it is not needed. I think they major difference with most peoples homemade PBW is the chelating agent, and I think EDTA will get you even that much closer. The only problem is finding it.
 
Try an earth-friendly dish washing powder. I use Seventh Generation brand. It is in the organic section of my local supermarket. I mix it 2:1 with Clorox brand scent free oxy-cleaner.

Cheap. Works great. No residue even with hard water.
 
You could use citric acid as a chelater. I know its going to lower the pH but if you add more percarbonate, you can adjust for that. It's also pretty cheap, ~$3/lb vs. ~$60/lb and easy to find from spice stores. I get mine from myspicesage.com. It's great as an acid wash when I clean my equipment. Especially to get rid of PBW residue. I also use it anywhere I have hard water deposits. As for the surfactant, you can use castile soap like Dr. Bronners.
 
Yea. About as basic a surfactant as you can get. You can get fancier by using something like SDS but that's really overkill. Honestly you probably don't need surfactants at all given how caustic it is. If there're any fats, they will saponify and turn into soap anyways.

FYI, Here's the patent for PBW style cleaners.
http://tinyurl.com/7n4qg5r
 
ISUBrew79 said:
I agree that EDTA would be a good chelating agent. It is used to bind up Calcium and Magnesium ions. This helps to precipitation of Calcium and Magnesium salts on the walls of the vessel your cleaning solution is in.

This is a problem I have with OxyClean versus PBW. My tap water is pretty high in calcium, and if I leave a carboy full of OxyClean solution overnight, I get mineral deposits all over the walls of the carboy that require soaking in vinegar or Star San and some scrubbing to remove. I have never had this problem with PBW.
Click to expand...

Generic "Oxygen Cleaner" will cause this mineral deposit problem. I had horrible deposits on all of my equipment using the generic stuff from Walmart/Grocery store. I switched to using name brand "OxiClean Free". Problem solved. Also, it has new formula that says that it's 40% stronger.... works awesome!
 
How do you mix up the citric acid? My kegs have some pretty bad deposits
 
When I'm getting rid of heavy deposits, I soak in a solution of ~ 1 tbsp per gallon. When I use oxyclean and get really light deposits, I fill the carboy with water then add ~1 tbsp. Works great! Citric acid was actually the active ingrdient in CLR before the started using lactic acid and glycolic acid.
 
cjang said:
You could use citric acid as a chelater. I know its going to lower the pH but if you add more percarbonate, you can adjust for that. It's also pretty cheap, ~$3/lb vs. ~$60/lb and easy to find from spice stores. I get mine from myspicesage.com. It's great as an acid wash when I clean my equipment. Especially to get rid of PBW residue. I also use it anywhere I have hard water deposits. As for the surfactant, you can use castile soap like Dr. Bronners.
Click to expand...

Earth friendly dishwasher detergent includes citric acid.
 
I make my own dishwasher detergent with it. Works awesome. I don't need to use a rinse agent any more. My glassware come out sparkling every time despite having pretty hard water.
 
A 2.81# box of Seventh Generation organic Automatic Dishwasher Detergent is $3.50 (Kroger in Delaware OH on 2/18/12).

Here's the list of ingredients:
Sodium carbonate
Sodium sulfate and sodium chloride
Citric acid
Sodium silicate
Polyaspartic acid
Ppg-10-laureth-7
Sodium percarbonate
Protease and amylase

I mix 2 boxes of 7th Gen with a store brand 3.5# tub of scent-free oxyclean (sodium percarbonate and sodium carbonate). That runs around $4. total yield is 9.12# for $11.

To clean up after brewing or scrubbing carboys, I mix 5 scoops which measures to approx 3/4 cup in 5gal of warm water. Weighs 7.5 oz. Comes out to about 20 cleaning sessions at $.55/wash.

Assuming I only clean brew day, after primary, and after secondary (empty kegs cleaned during one of these sessions. Two kegs per batch) that is $.83/keg of beer...
 
I think the surfactant is SDS. It is the most common surfactant and is used in everything from toothpaste, shampoo, dish soap, and on and on and on......
 
Thanks all,

I want to pursue using EDTA as a chelater, and SDS as a surfactant.
I'm not chemist, so please let me know if I'm about to lose my eyebrows at any point.

I want to do a little more research on these, and I need a good resource. How can i find out the optimal temperature an PH for these two chemicals. I want to compare that data against the recommended PBW temp, and make sure they will work at high alkalinity.
 
EDTA is more soluble in higher pH. If you were to go to a chem store and buy EDTA in solution it will likely be pH 8-10, so likely no problem there. For SDS it is used in everything at any pH and should not cause any problems. I routinely mix SDS and EDTA for solutions in lab, no explosions. If you are worried I would mix a small amount together before you start a big batch. I am also not a chemist so don't take what I say as absolute fact. A little research goes a long way.
 
I was thinking about making this formulation:
Yeild 3.33 lbs
61% Oxyclean free (sodium percarbonate) (2 lbs)
30% TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate) (1 lb)
5% EDTA (2.66 oz)
4% SDS (2.13 oz)
 
@ekjohns - That looks good, but isn't oxiclean mostly carbonate as apposed to to percarbonate.

I just read the patent online, and it looks like we want the bulk of the ratio to be percarbonate.

The patent also lists a whole host of surfactants that didn't recognize.
 
As far the patent there are a lot of stuff that they put in there to cover all bases. I'm not positive sds is the surfactant. I'm sure multiple surfactants can be used and work well. Sds is also a cleaner so its working double duty. As far as the oxy clean goes I'm not sure what you use to get more precarbonate.
 
ekjohns said:
I was thinking about making this formulation:
Yeild 3.33 lbs
61% Oxyclean free (sodium percarbonate) (2 lbs)
30% TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate) (1 lb)
5% EDTA (2.66 oz)
4% SDS (2.13 oz)
Click to expand...

Sorry to bring up an old post, but this is interesting to me.
Have you tried this composition, if so, what are your thoughts?

And where are you guys able to procure these chemicals?
Thanks
 
I have been using 1 part oxyclean free to 2 parts seventh generation dish washing powder.
Cleans everything and leaves no mineral deposits if I forget about it for a couple days.
Flush everything with fresh water.
Works on glass, stainless, plastic... Everything.
It's easy and cheap.
 
pilzner said:
I have been using 1 part oxyclean free to 2 parts seventh generation dish washing powder.
Cleans everything and leaves no mineral deposits if I forget about it for a couple days.
Flush everything with fresh water.
Works on glass, stainless, plastic... Everything.
It's easy and cheap.
Click to expand...

How's the foaming? I'm looking for a CIP solution for my conical with minimum foaming.
 
It foams, but I fill it to the top and just leave it overnight to clean the deposits. In the morning I dump, flush with clean water and don't even need to brush.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but I was reading it because I am thinking about building my own PBW but without using Oxyclean free. Mainly because I don't like the foaming. I'm thinking of getting sodium percarbonate from this site: http://www.soapgoods.com/product_info.php?products_id=1001 . They also have EDTA, TSP substitute should be fairly easy to find locally. And it looks like that same site has Sodium Laurel Sulfate which is the same as SDS.

61% Sodium percarbonate/carbonate - main cleaning agent
30% TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate) - lowers pH/caustic
5% EDTA - chelator
4% SDS/SLS - surfactant

I don't necessarily need the chelator as I've never had the spotting problems, but I would like to have a relatively low foaming surfactant in the solution.

I'm getting close, and so far cost is under $2/lb which is a great price.

Anyone know where to get sodium metasilacate cheap/bulk?

Would SLS possibly foam too much? It is used in household soaps for it's ability to lather.
 
testingapril said:
I know this thread is a little old, but I was reading it because I am thinking about building my own PBW but without using Oxyclean free. Mainly because I don't like the foaming. I'm thinking of getting sodium percarbonate from this site: http://www.soapgoods.com/product_info.php?products_id=1001 . They also have EDTA, TSP substitute should be fairly easy to find locally. And it looks like that same site has Sodium Laurel Sulfate which is the same as SDS.

61% Sodium percarbonate/carbonate - main cleaning agent
30% TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate) - lowers pH/caustic
5% EDTA - chelator
4% SDS/SLS - surfactant

I don't necessarily need the chelator as I've never had the spotting problems, but I would like to have a relatively low foaming surfactant in the solution.

I'm getting close, and so far cost is under $2/lb which is a great price.

Anyone know where to get sodium metasilacate cheap/bulk?

Would SLS possibly foam too much? It is used in household soaps for it's ability to lather.
Click to expand...

Here is this formula priced out per pound:

61% Sodium percarbonate - $1.08
30% TSP/90 - $1.5
5% EDTA - $1.18
4% SLS - $0.32

Total - $4.08/pound plus shipping/tax

I'm sure it would be pretty effective, but once you include shipping it's kinda pricey. At least as much as buying PBW and certainly more so than buying PBW in bulk.

If you could live without the EDTA (chelator) which I can, that brings the price under $3/pound, and maybe with shipping it wouldn't be too bad. But at $5/pound or less for PBW, which is a proven, tested, and approved product, it's probably just worth buying PBW and figuring out ways to use less of it.
 
testingapril said:
I know this thread is a little old, but I was reading it because I am thinking about building my own PBW but without using Oxyclean free. Mainly because I don't like the foaming. I'm thinking of getting sodium percarbonate from this site: http://www.soapgoods.com/product_info.php?products_id=1001 . They also have EDTA, TSP substitute should be fairly easy to find locally. And it looks like that same site has Sodium Laurel Sulfate which is the same as SDS.

61% Sodium percarbonate/carbonate - main cleaning agent
30% TSP/90 (Sodium Metasilicate) - lowers pH/caustic
5% EDTA - chelator
4% SDS/SLS - surfactant

I don't necessarily need the chelator as I've never had the spotting problems, but I would like to have a relatively low foaming surfactant in the solution.

I'm getting close, and so far cost is under $2/lb which is a great price.

Anyone know where to get sodium metasilacate cheap/bulk?

Would SLS possibly foam too much? It is used in household soaps for it's ability to lather.
Click to expand...

Red Devil TSP/90 is (according to the MSDS) 100% sodium metasilicate. I get the 4 lb bags for $15 on Amazon. Been using it for 3 years so far in my homebrew PBW and I've never had an issue. I mix large batches, as I tend to use PBW in the dishwasher, too. Great for saponifying large amounts of grease as well as softening and removing hard protein deposits.
 
For all the time that goes into finding a PBW substitute, is it really worth it? I get PBW for $3.10 a pound thru a local nano-brewery. ($155.00 for 50 lbs.) Which I ended up working at. No mess, no fuss. I have tried the substitute version but in reality you use more of the oxy based version than the real thing.
 
Here is what I have been using. Stolen from another post or forum, I don't recall.

96oz Oxygen Cleaner (I found a dye free at Dollar General)
4lb TSP
40oz Seventh Generation Dry Automatic Dishwasher soap
 

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