Hi from Northern England.

[cire]

Hi to everyone, this is a new venture for an oldtimer. Still brew a bit but can't drink much these days, though still very much like to keep my hand in.
Was brought up on beer styles that have mostly disappeared from pubs with a great many of the new beers using American hops and styles, so thought I come and see what's next.

 

[mjrodney]

Have you identified any homebrew recipes that come close to those you miss having at your local pubs?

Hello back from the west coast of Florida.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Hi cire! Huge fan of ales from Northern England, as well as your country! Nice to meet you here. What part of the North do you hail from?

 

[cire]

Have you identified any homebrew recipes that come close to those you miss having at your local pubs?

Hello back from the west coast of Florida.

Sorry to say I've not had time, thought best be polite and first say hello. Seems like a really friendly place and therefore should get back to you on that. Meantime shall explain that beers of my youth enjoyed most were thought hoppy with about 30 IBU or little more, the same today considered underhopped.

I struggle with some of the more modern hops that make my cheeks pucker and the hairs on the back of my neck (I've little any higher) stand to attention. At the last count I'd about 40 varieties in stock and love US Cascade at the right level, but some make me wonder if I've added onions, garlic and distilled horseradish and vinegar as late hopping, but maybe that's because I drink my beers at a temperature many would call warm.

Hope you didn't suffer from the recent winds and rain down your way.

Hi cire! Huge fan of ales from Northern England, as well as your country! Nice to meet you here. What part of the North do you hail from?

Oooh, that would be telling, there's friendly rivalry around these parts that can get out of control when beer plays some part.
I'm in the Northeast, not far from where Jerimiah Dixon was born. He with Charles Mason fixed a line to settle a dispute early in your history. Just seen theat Dixon died in 1777, the same year William Bass set up brewing in Burton upon Trent and the Mersey-Trent Canal was opened linking the East and West coasts of England for Burton Breweries and others.

Has anyone named a beer after Mason or/and Dixon?

As previously written, I've yet to read the forum, but did flick though one thread about Yorkshire yeasts to which I note you made major contributions. Might I say such yeasts and fermentation techniques were once commonplace outside Yorkshire? They were not only widespread in the North of England, but even included Scotland. There wasn't/isn't just (a few are still around) a single strain, some even multi-strain and their use wasn't restricted to Yorkshire Squares although they did/will help retain the required properties. Utilising them as they were intended will break many rules cast in stone in some parts of the world. Used properly they make wonderful cask beers.

 

[ncbrewer]

Welcome to HBT, cire.

 

[McKnuckle]

I just learned through Google where Jeremiah Dixon was born. It seems you're about a 45 minute drive from the Tan Hill Inn, the highest altitude pub in the British Isles, nestled near the Yorkshire Dales. Did you know? I was there last month and enjoyed TT Landlord on cask. Welcome to HBT sir!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thank you, Cire. That is amazing, the origin of the Mason-Dixon lore. Had absolutely no idea, and though I've only very lightly read something about the canal, it sparks a small memory - I believe it was a talk given by Martin Brungard on the subject of "Historic Brewing Waters."

On brewing. Ha! You may or may not come to mention somewhere on the site of a dinner my wife and I were lucky to share with Michael Jackson, at the White Horse in London.

I was a brewer at the time, and came to England with starry eyes and a gushing enthusiasm for all the brewing ways of your country. I'm afraid I was naive, and flatly wrong, in the extreme on so many occasions. Mr. Jackson was indulgent for the most part, until I brought up the term "United Kingdom." Another story.

Thanks for elucidating some reality and I am really looking forward to reading your contributions.

ps: Literally just finished an interesting paper referenced by a member, fellow countryman of yours (I believe Yorkshire?), on O2 in brewery fermentations. Their use of O2 requirement and classifying into 4 classes based on that variable, helps explain the practices up north. I better understand how aeration throughout the growth cycle among these yeasts is a fitting if not necessary way to proceed.

 

[cire]

I just learned through Google where Jeremiah Dixon was born. It seems you're about a 45 minute drive from the Tan Hill Inn, the highest altitude pub in the British Isles, nestled near the Yorkshire Dales. Did you know? I was there last month and enjoyed TT Landlord on cask. Welcome to HBT sir!

If you enjoyed Landlord you are indeed a man of good taste. My wife and I were there, maybe, two months since. I've a favourite picture taken with my son on my shoulders outside the Tan Hill before his eldest sister was born and she is currently 42 years of age. Sadly there was loud music playing when we were there last, so turned around to beat a hasty retreat. The place was surrounded with bikers, a great sight but with drink and drive laws as they are, none would be customers to support that enterprise. Don't get me started, you know why, you've been there.

For your next visit, try the Lion Inn on Blakey Ridge, similar height ASL and latitude, well 4 minutes less, but 50 miles to the east for a slight variation on the theme. For a vastly different alternative you could go by the Red Lion in Arkengarthdale, a time warp that would have made Capt. Kirk proud. A step straight into the fifties of Britain, roughly the same as USA a half century before. Buy a pint and a pasty, you'll split your sides laughing every further day you spend on earth.

 

[cire]

Welcome to HBT, cire.

Thank you, it's my pleasure to be here.

 

[cire]

Thank you, Cire. That is amazing, the origin of the Mason-Dixon lore. Had absolutely no idea, and though I've only very lightly read something about the canal, it sparks a small memory - I believe it was a talk given by Martin Brungard on the subject of "Historic Brewing Waters."

On brewing. Ha! You may or may not come to mention somewhere on the site of a dinner my wife and I were lucky to share with Michael Jackson, at the White Horse in London.

I was a brewer at the time, and came to England with starry eyes and a gushing enthusiasm for all the brewing ways of your country. I'm afraid I was naive, and flatly wrong, in the extreme on so many occasions. Mr. Jackson was indulgent for the most part, until I brought up the term "United Kingdom." Another story.

Thanks for elucidating some reality and I am really looking forward to reading your contributions.

ps: Literally just finished an interesting paper referenced by a member, fellow countryman of yours (I believe Yorkshire?), on O2 in brewery fermentations. Their use of O2 requirement and classifying into 4 classes based on that variable, helps explain the practices up north. I better understand how aeration throughout the growth cycle among these yeasts is a fitting if not necessary way to proceed.

Interesting to read your involvement and opinion on Michael Jackson. I've read much of his and this far simply taken his opinion as gospel. That said, his path and mine have, to my knowledge, not crossed and our interests have been somewhat diverse so I heard what you said and have no contrary evidence and accordingly respect your observations. He can't respond, so as a minimum you might have the last word in my ear on this subject.

On a similar trajectory, although on an alternative track, you mentioned Martin Brungard who in my opinion has confused many brewers by his early assertions on British waters. To be fair, this year he has massively backtracked.

On the Yorkshire yeast topic, I don't think a fair judgement can be made without using a similar water profile, even a more important factor than the fermentation vessel used.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Oh, Cire, please understand I have nothing but admiration and deep fondness for the late Mr. Jackson. I'm afraid my ebullience probably spilled over to obnoxiousness, because I was starstruck by your country, and by him. It was a multi-course beer dinner. We started with a reknowned mild in the bar, and I'm vexed I can't remember it's name. Anyway - all me, not ... I still want to call him Mr. Jackson. He gave us a signed copy of his Malt Whisky book. One of the most memorable evenings of my life.

I'd love to read the newer conclusions of Martin Brungard. I was most surprised by his dampening down of the Burton sulfate assumptions.

On the Yorkshire yeast, couldn't agree more. Unfortunately our water is nothing like Yorkshire. Ours is actually lousy brewing water in every way, so as much as I loathe doing this, I will be building up from RO water. It will approximate Yorkshire's assumed averages, but I know it can't be replicated without being there. Just want to try as much as I can, to see how close to that area's character I can get. Black Sheep v. Spitfire....

 

[Gadjobrinus]

If you enjoyed Landlord you are indeed a man of good taste. My wife and I were there, maybe, two months since. I've a favourite picture taken with my son on my shoulders outside the Tan Hill before his eldest sister was born and she is currently 42 years of age. Sadly there was loud music playing when we were there last, so turned around to beat a hasty retreat. The place was surrounded with bikers, a great sight but with drink and drive laws as they are, none would be customers to support that enterprise. Don't get me started, you know why, you've been there.

For your next visit, try the Lion Inn on Blakey Ridge, similar height ASL and latitude, well 4 minutes less, but 50 miles to the east for a slight variation on the theme. For a vastly different alternative you could go by the Red Lion in Arkengarthdale, a time warp that would have made Capt. Kirk proud. A step straight into the fifties of Britain, roughly the same as USA a half century before. Buy a pint and a pasty, you'll split your sides laughing every further day you spend on earth.

Just want to say, you're a great read, Cire. Looking forward to more.

 

[Cyclman]

Welcome to the hobby, and the group, from CO

 

[cire]

Thanks for the welcome Cyclman, pleased to be here.

Sorry Gadjobrinus, I didn't mean to sound the way it reads on Jackson. Looking at what I wrote now see it's a bit jumbled and seems I've messed up somewhat in editing. My intention was to express surprise at what happened as I'd no knowledge of the guy's personality, only having read his articles which were usually well respected.

Yes, building up from RO water is becoming popular here too, both commercially and for homebrewing. I can understand the advantages for large companies who can then brew the similar products at several locations, although it does seem strange that even well water in Burton on Trent is stripped of its mineral content by some major brewers. It's disappointing to find so many homebrewers in UK now doing the same only to then have to put back some or all of what was removed. Burton was famous for its beers when it wasn't possible to know what minerals were in their waters, so we can only guess. The main problem with many British waters is too high a level of alkalinity, one which can be most simply solved by an acid addition. Yorkshire is a great place, some very good breweries and many great pubs that go hand in hand.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Cire, on Michael Jackson, no, you did nothing - it was entirely me. I just think I unwittingly jumped on something when I used the term; not realizing the term could have a very strong political connotation. Part and parcel of my unbridled, annoying, enthusiasm, I believe. And it was a very small part of a very long, delicious, incredible evening. The man knew everything. He quizzed me several points during the evening. At one point he brought up a certain (ancient, in relative terms) year and described in full the character of a Thomas Hardy's Old Ale.

As it turns out, he also knew my wife's great-Uncle. He was the Director of the Tartu, Estonia, brewery under Soviet times. When we got back to the States Michael sent us a pic of Heino in miserable cold, fur hat and all the rest, standing outside the gates of the brewery. A very fitting photo of being an Estonian under imperialist rule, I always thought.

Now: I seems you are a humble man, in that from another on this site it seems you have a ton of expertise and ideas in areas of great general use. Can't wait to hear them revealed over time, as you wish to let them out.

The notion of stripping out only to put back in, yes, that bums me out too. As a chef I did everything I possibly could to preserve and extend intrinsic flavor, hated "wizardry" on a plate, so it's much the same here. It kills me to basically make a Dr. Water, but I think I almost have to. Our RA is huge (224), sulfate low (21), HCO3 high (364), Alkalinity (298). I don't think I'd even stay with dark ales, with untreated water. (Cl is 19).

So I could do a 1:3 dilution with RO to at least give me some of my "native" water, but for one, these values above are an average of any of 3 wells, whose ratios of distribution change quite a bit; and we shift between winter and summer distribution as well.

Yorkshire - I cannot wait to take my family there. We were in the Cotswolds quite a bit, many nights at the Pear Tree in Hook Norton, but next has to be up North.

Thanks again, Cire, and yes, looking forward to your thoughts. I understand from this other member, you and he have discussed rousing techniques? ANYTIME you feel like spilling the beans on this intriguing subject well.....

 

[cire]

I'm trying to get my head around your water. I don't find residual alkalinity helpful with my water which is also very alkaline. Today HCO3 measures 325mg/l with RA of 155mg/l as calcium carbonate due to containing a decent level of natural gypsum. Does your water contain much sodium?

Using either Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acid to reduce alkalinity to about 20mg/l as CaCO3, it's possible to mash a pale beer to pH 5.3 with no other treatment. That's not to say there's no further adjustment of course, as my primary objective is to get close to 100% extraction efficiency. Compared to producing 20 gallons of RO, it's a walk in the park.

I've tried the same with lactic and phosphoric acids, but the resultant beers weren't good. I'm told many Americans use these acids. Is that the case and do any use sulfuric or hydrochloric acids?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Our full report:

CA 70
Mg 41
Na 7
Cl 19
SO4 21
Total Hard. 344
HCO3 364
Alk. 298
RA 224

And you're spot on, I don't know if we can even get either Sulfuric or Hydrochloric acid. Lactic and phosphoric is what's commonly available, and what I've always used - but I've never had to treat water to this extent to reduce alkalinity so much. I did boil on occasion, when I lived on a farm that had good water otherwise. And I've thought of slaked lime treatment but I think even then, I'd end up with some pretty lousy water. So I concluded, kicking and screaming, and with some help from both Martin Brungard and AJ DeLange, RO is probably the best way forward.

 

[cire]

My water varies vastly, but it's from a single source and appears be at times of heavy rain to be diluted by it. From that I can simply measure conductivity to determine the major ions.

The following is an analysis when calcium was found to be similar to yours.

Ca 70.4
Mg 33.1
Na 25.7
K 1.9
SO4 115
Cl 37.5
NO3 15.2
PO4 3.7

If you were to treat your water with sulfuric to reduce alkalinity to 20ppm as CaCO3 it would increase sulphate to 288ppm or the same using hydrochloric would increase chloride to 216ppm. Of course you could use a mix of the two acids to bet the SO4:Cl
ratio you desire.

Europe has E numbers for food additives. E507is for food safe hydrochloric and E513 for Sulphuric so we don't end up using battery acid.

Could you imagine yourself using them?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thank you Cire. And this is just with acids, then? I did just look up a calculator from John Palmer. With a 50% RO dilution, the addition of both gypsum and CaCl, and some hydrochloric acid, I end up with:

Ca 128
Mg 21
Alk. as CaCo3 140
SO4 173
Cl 61
Na 5
RA 37
SO4:Cl 2.8

-which I can live with, though I don't know if the sulfate-chloride ratio is too high to avoid too much of a scale leaning more to hop bitterness than a malty, rich balance I enjoy in Northern bitters.

Edit: I obviously spaced that the calculator presumes we can obtain hydrochloric. Looking, because I've never come across it in brewing supply places. And still not sure about the sulfuric, but yeah, lol, I do wonder if authorities might worry about "Battery Beer"...

 

[cire]

I use both acids and salts to obtain the profile I need and have sufficient calcium where it is important. My water is particularly high in minerals currently, I think the water table is getting low after a year with relatively little rain. This country gets plenty rain most years, but where I live is sheltered by the Pennines, a ridge of hills when the winds are from the west and they have been that way most of this year.

This is my most common profile.

Ca 95.5
Mg 47
Na 33
K 2.3
SO4 134.7
Cl 52.9
NO3 20.8
PO4 1.6

Alkalinity 255 as CaCO3

Using HCl to drop alkalinity to 20mg/l as CaCO3 would increase chloride by 167 to 220ppm. Adding gypsum to raise calcium to 175ppm would increase sulfate to about 330ppm, a 3:2 ratio of sulfate to chloride.
Alternatively using sulfuric acid, sulfate will be increased to 360ppm. Addin calcium chloride flake to get chloride to 120 to provide a 3 to 1 ratio of sulfate to chloride would increase calcium to 133. So yes, just add acid to suit your taste, but it doesn't have to be added to the mash, unless you want to lower pH.

In the profile you give, alkalinity at 140ppm is too high by a long way for me, but that's another story.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

So even with an RA of 37 (compared to what it was, a miracle), it's the alkalinity itself that too high by your work, then.

That's with a 50:50 RO blend. I'll have to go back to the drawing board, I think, and wonder if it's just easier to work entirely with RO, salts, and a light touch of lactic acid if needs be. It seems impossible for us to get food grade hydrochloric or sulfuric.

Edit: Is a 3:1 ratio common for bitters in the North?

 

[cire]

As said, I've little faith in using RA to design water profiles. Kolbach's work was on and for low mineral waters and I've found it unsuitable for use with high mineral liquors.

It's a shame such acids are not available, your water is perfect for brewing British styles using them.

3:1 is quite a common ratio. I've brewed at higher ratios than that to find the beers initially too dry, but they aged very well, something to do with the preservative qualities of sulphates perhaps? I'll more usually choose 2:1 and ensure the chloride is above 100ppm, else the body can be rather thin. Contrary to most opinion for pale beers, I find 1:1 very satisfying.

Alkalinity is all important. I use RIMS and will recycle to take a sample to measure pH. Then, the pH can be fine tuned if necessary by adding either untreated water of a small amount of calcium salts. I normally don't need or wish to, but the option exists.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Don't want to take up your welcome thread with this more than I have, Cire. I'll create another thread. Thanks for all your help and it's great to meet you here.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Cire, I include RA because it seems to be everything I've read, including the "Water" book by Palmer and Kaminski. (sp?). I will need to read more as I recall Kolbach's figures on another front were based on bitter wort, I think, and not finished beer?

Memory is terrible. But I hear you and understand. Thanks for the idea it's a poor indicator in low mineral waters.

I moved to another thread, didn't want to take up your thread. Just briefly, I was able to find some food grade hydrochloric and am now at Alk. = 26, a sulfate:chloride ration of 2.5:1, with Cl at 97. I'll have to play, it seems. I enjoy ales such as Bishop's Finger or Spitfire, but I would like a rounder, more malty brew, at least for now.

Thank you again.

 

[cire]

RA might work with low ion water, but not with water like yours and mine.

Kolbach measured pH at knockout where as we tend to measure pH 10 or 15 minutes into the mash.

Yes we'll continue this elsewhere later.

Cheers.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Great. Thank you, yes, mash, that's what I dropped from mind.

Cheers as well, Cire. Not just saying this, but saying "cheers" reminds me of one of the best nights of our stay in England, Fleet Street at Blackfriars. My wife and I sat and drank with two gents who'd worked and retired from the- was it a press? - across the street. They'd done it during the Blitz. Walking out, seeing St. Paul's in the offing.

Amazing history. So, yes, cheers. We really loved your country.