Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[LateraLex]

Looks similar to the ones at http://www.yakimavalleyhops.com/product_p/extractco2cans.htm

Yep, that's it. Syringes I got off ebay and would recommend. It took a while to pick these out oddly enough. They have caps which looks nice to keep extra in storage in the fridge for a long time. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005VRL7I6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I've tried to read through all 107 pages of this thread, but without doing so, could someone point me to the post that list the consensus recipe for HT? I just got my BYO and I wanted to compare it to what has been established by everyones hard work here in the forum. What page is the recipe that comes closest to heady on? Thanks.

Yes, that is the one I followed. If you want the BeerSmith file search the thread as someone uploaded it.

 

[CliffMongoloid]

Just curious but does anyone know Their final price for this clone?... Looks pretty pricey for the amount of hops

 

[m3n00b]

Just curious but does anyone know Their final price for this clone?... Looks pretty pricey for the amount of hops

I think I used around $30 in hops. If you buy simcoe and cascade by the pound it would be cheaper.

 

[powermd]

I've tried to read through all 107 pages of this thread, but without doing so, could someone point me to the post that list the consensus recipe for HT? I just got my BYO and I wanted to compare it to what has been established by everyones hard work here in the forum. What page is the recipe that comes closest to heady on? Thanks.

Take a look at Vegan's 4.0 recipe. I did this using Wyeast 1099 and it came out AMAZING. Not quite HT, but I enjoy it more. I brewed it back in early July and still have some left in a keg. That first sip (or two, or three) are pure heaven. If you haven't done a recipe with this complex a hop bill, plan it out well.

I have a bunch of Conan now, so next time around I'll probably give that a try.

 

[rpkincaid]

Same here. Seems the new packaging has given some trouble.

I have a starter on the stir plate now and will post back later this weekend.

The yeast appear to have survived the shipping. I have stepped up the culture a second starter and everything appears good.

I hope Yeast Geek can get their packaging/shipping issue worked out. I will say that they were very responsive to the issue and provided good customer service (responded to my email in about an hour and even offered a refund for the leaking shipment).

 

[CliffMongoloid]

The yeast appear to have survived the shipping. I have stepped up the culture a second starter and everything appears good.

I hope Yeast Geek can get their packaging/shipping issue worked out. I will say that they were very responsive to the issue and provided good customer service (responded to my email in about an hour and even offered a refund for the leaking shipment).

I agree their customer service was A plus

They are sending me a replacement today for the first shipment that leaked

He also mentioned he was getting new containers since he had so much trouble with the last ones.... I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again

 

[ill4delph]

Just curious but does anyone know Their final price for this clone?... Looks pretty pricey for the amount of hops

Keystone Homebrew in montgomeryville PA sells a kit as per the clone recipe in the latest issue of BYO, but it's 90$

 

[mtnagel]

I bottled my clone 5.5 weeks ago and I've tried 3 bottles so far.

1st bottle about 3.5 weeks after bottling - Tasted great. Really hoppy. Good flavor. Good carbonation.
2nd bottle about 4.5 weeks after bottling - Way overcarbonated. As soon as I opened the bottle, bubbles started coming up through the hops and yeast sediment (that I shouldn't have tried to keep more out of the bottle) which caused it to mix up. I had a bunch of junk in the glass and it overflowed the glass. Still tasted okay, but I took all the bottles I had and released the pressure from the caps over a few days.
3rd bottle about 5.5 weeks after bottling - Tasted amazing. Carbonation back to good level (not sure why they became overcarbed; glad I could fix it). Great beer. Very hazy (basically opaque), but who cares. I get a spicy flavor in the back of my throat when drinking. I need to try a Heady to see if I get it with that. Anyone else get that in their clone or from HT? I don't normally drink double IPA's like this, so it may just be me not being used to it.

 

[mtnagel]

Just curious but does anyone know Their final price for this clone?... Looks pretty pricey for the amount of hops

For a 2.5 gal batch, I spent $27 on the grains and hops. The hops were bought in 1 oz packs. The grain was bought in bulk. I also get a 10% discount from my LHBS.

 

[ja09]

I agree their customer service was A plus

They are sending me a replacement today for the first shipment that leaked

He also mentioned he was getting new containers since he had so much trouble with the last ones.... I wouldn't hesitate to order from them again

That's great if he gets new containers. The customer service was good... He refunded me right away, but most of mine had leaked out.

 

[ja09]

Do you literally mean literally?

Literally

 

[satph]

Great beer. Very hazy (basically opaque), but who cares. I get a spicy flavor in the back of my throat when drinking. I need to try a Heady to see if I get it with that. Anyone else get that in their clone or from HT? I don't normally drink double IPA's like this, so it may just be me not being used to it.

Freshly canned HT is hazy and full of floaties. I don't get a spicy or clove flavor in HT. Once it's aged a few weeks, there's a strong bitterness as the peach flavor subsides (it also starts to clear). Could the spiciness be hops bitterness? Or do you think it is clove flavors from the yeast?

FatC1ty notes that he gets Belgian clove flavors out of Conan in the Conan Yeast Experience thread. At what temperature did you ferment? There's not enough information on these threads to figure out the impact of a change in temperature, oxygenation and pitch-rate. I suspect pitch rates are pretty variable, especially for those of us growing the yeast out of a can.

I'm still not sure why the clone you and m3n00b made both came out cloudy while BullGator and NathPowe made clones that cleared very quickly. I'm wondering what could account for this difference in flocculation. Could it be fermentation temperature? Growth conditions? Or is it the batch from which it was harvested? It would seem an older batch would be more likely to be clovey and flocculate faster/more completely. But the batch I brewed with BullGator doesn't have cloves despite the high flocculation.

 

[m3n00b]

To be fair mine is cold crashing right now. Will be bottling soon. I also used us05 fermented in the high 50s.

 

[Petekiteworld]

All my conan beers have cleared after about a month but they start super hazy

 

[mtnagel]

Freshly canned HT is hazy and full of floaties. I don't get a spicy or clove flavor in HT. Once it's aged a few weeks, there's a strong bitterness as the peach flavor subsides (it also starts to clear). Could the spiciness be hops bitterness? Or do you think it is clove flavors from the yeast?

FatC1ty notes that he gets Belgian clove flavors out of Conan in the Conan Yeast Experience thread. At what temperature did you ferment? There's not enough information on these threads to figure out the impact of a change in temperature, oxygenation and pitch-rate. I suspect pitch rates are pretty variable, especially for those of us growing the yeast out of a can.

I'm still not sure why the clone you and m3n00b made both came out cloudy while BullGator and NathPowe made clones that cleared very quickly. I'm wondering what could account for this difference in flocculation. Could it be fermentation temperature? Growth conditions? Or is it the batch from which it was harvested? It would seem an older batch would be more likely to be clovey and flocculate faster/more completely. But the batch I brewed with BullGator doesn't have cloves despite the high flocculation.

Thanks for the response.

Yes I was expecting the haziness. Not really worried about that. I fermented at 67F (in a water bath for at least 10 days). The remainder was closer to 69F (in ambient basement temps).

Interestingly enough, I'm assuming the Conan that bullgator and I are using are the same because I got my Heady from him Which was around April this year.

My pitch rates were based on 2 billion cells per can and I used yeastcalc.com to calculate pitch rates and growth factors and based on that I pitched the proper amount.

And the spiciness I'm getting, I wouldn't call clove. It is more of a pepper/chili spice and only in the back of my throat. It is more the spice sensation and no odor or flavor like from eating spicy foods. But I fully admit I may be calling it the wrong thing. Like I said, I don't normally drink such hop bombs, so it may be due to the hops. I'll report back if anyone else that drinks my clone gets the same thing.

 

[satph]

That's great info. If you and BullGator are using Conan from the same batch of HT, then we know the difference in flocculation is due to how it was handled, or how it was fermented, not from which batch of HT it came from. That's one less variable to contend with!

Back to your spiciness. There is a bite on the finish of my clone. I think it's hop bitterness.

 

[NuclearRich]

Thanks for the response.

Yes I was expecting the haziness. Not really worried about that. I fermented at 67F (in a water bath for at least 10 days). The remainder was closer to 69F (in ambient basement temps).

Interestingly enough, I'm assuming the Conan that bullgator and I are using are the same because I got my Heady from him Which was around April this year.

My pitch rates were based on 2 billion cells per can and I used yeastcalc.com to calculate pitch rates and growth factors and based on that I pitched the proper amount.

And the spiciness I'm getting, I wouldn't call clove. It is more of a pepper/chili spice and only in the back of my throat. It is more the spice sensation and no odor or flavor like from eating spicy foods. But I fully admit I may be calling it the wrong thing. Like I said, I don't normally drink such hop bombs, so it may be due to the hops. I'll report back if anyone else that drinks my clone gets the same thing.

That back of the throat sharpness you are experiencing could very well be due to hop parricles if you used pellet hops. Its almost like a sore throat if you have a few.

 

[mtnagel]

That's great info. If you and BullGator are using Conan from the same batch of HT, then we know the difference in flocculation is due to how it was handled, or how it was fermented, not from which batch of HT it came from. That's one less variable to contend with!

He'll have to confirm, but I got the can from him. And I've only used Conan from starters, not from washing yeast, which is supposed to not count as a new generation (so I've been told).

Back to your spiciness. There is a bite on the finish of my clone. I think it's hop bitterness.

That back of the throat sharpness you are experiencing could very well be due to hop parricles if you used pellet hops. Its almost like a sore throat if you have a few.

Hopefully that's it! Good to know I didn't F something up.

 

[BullGator]

He'll have to confirm, but I got the can from him. And I've only used Conan from starters, not from washing yeast, which is supposed to not count as a new generation (so I've been told).

Hopefully that's it! Good to know I didn't F something up.

It should be from the same batch as mine was built up from a can from my april trip up there. Not that it should matter but I slanted the conan. So mine should also be from the same generation. Consider it confirmed

 

[ianmatth]

I made a starter by adding 300 ml of wort to 100 ml Heady 72 hours ago. It started fermenting at some point today and was up to 73 (from 68 this morning) when I just checked it. The gravity only dropped a few points so far, but it already smells like Citra hops so it definitely has the peach thing going, and thankfully no Belgian smells. I'm going to give it another 24 hours and add another 600 ml of wort, then I'll probably give that another 48 hours before adding another 1 L of wort to make it 2 L. After 48 hours I'm going to decant that and see how much solid yeast I have. I assume 4 billion cells per ml of yeast solid, so I'll report back what I see. Brewers Friend says 2 billion cells should give me 116 billion cells by that point. 1 billion would give 98 billion, 500 million would give 80 billion, and 250 million would give 59 billion. If I get 116 billion cells another 2 L starter will get that up to 283 billion, so I'll use 200 billion cells make a 3 gallon batch and save the rest in a White Labs vial for future use.

I'm going to make some changes to theveganbrewer's hop schedule by using 1/2 oz of Apollo and 1/2 oz CTZ at 90 min, splitting the 5 min addition at 15 min and 5 min, changing the 0 min addition to a 2 min addition, and the aroma steep to a 0 min addition with a 30 minute steep. I think I will get a little more out of the hops that way. I'm also going to add organic cane sugar after the steep based on where my gravity is at that point and plan to ferment in the kettle before transferring to a 3 gallon Better Bottle carboy for secondary fermentation and dry hopping.

 

[Petekiteworld]

I have pendulumed year to year from using leaf to pellet to leaf again. I now think pellet gets too bitter with trub and particles in big beers, even with a good crash.

 

[hopgoblin4]

I too got cans from bullgator. No clove taste in the first 11 gallon batch I made after stepping it up with yeastcalc. Stepped up dregs from 2 cans for a brew tomorrow. This time 22 gallons! A few more steps! I use hop bags. Constantly being stirred/whirlpooled during the boil. Last addy's in a separate bag. Therefore, I don't get the as many particles of hops in the end wort. Anyone else doing it this way? I'll post back on how this brew goes!

 

[Slimasaurus]

I'm curious what British Pale Ale Malt are most people using?

 

[white_sage]

I'm curious what British Pale Ale Malt are most people using?

Thomas Fawcett Pearl Malt is the base malt used by The Alchemist and is what the majority of people seem to be using.

 

[iheartbeer81]

Just read that the new issue of BYO (October 2013) has a HT clone recipe as well as some Hill Farmstead recipes. Anyone know if it's the same as already published in the earlier issue?

 

[J-Pizzel]

Just got an email that Austin Homebrew sells a clone now, I'd imagine its BYO's version

 

[D_Nyholm]

Just got an email that Austin Homebrew sells a clone now, I'd imagine its BYO's version

I was about to ask the same thing. Has anyone ordered the clone and brewed it? Would love to know what they came up with.

 

[J-Pizzel]

I was about to ask the same thing. Has anyone ordered the clone and brewed it? Would love to know what they came up with.

Kinda doubt it, I think it came out today…

 

[m3n00b]

Bottled my semi-clone yesterday. Here's my cold crashed sample. So good! I had probably 3 bottles worth during bottling. Mine came out to 9.3% and it was delicious. Tons of peach and grapefruit. I had a nice buzz on by the time I was done.

 

[BeerGrylls]

Kegging my Vegan Heady v4 tomorrow. In the mean time, I had made a falconer's pale ale on the yeast cake that I'm currently drinking. This yeast is so unique!

 

[midfielder5]

Just got an email that Austin Homebrew sells a clone now, I'd imagine its BYO's version

The AHS Blue Moon "clone", which may well taste better than the actual beer-- does not use the known grain bill, hops, yeast, mash profile or boil time.
So I would not necessarily expect AHS' heady topper recipe to be a good clone. Again it may well be a great recipe taste wise but does not fit what I call a "clone".

 

[CliffMongoloid]

New bottles look good!

 

[Trail]

The AHS Blue Moon "clone", which may well taste better than the actual beer-- does not use the known grain bill, hops, yeast, mash profile or boil time.
So I would not necessarily expect AHS' heady topper recipe to be a good clone. Again it may well be a great recipe taste wise but does not fit what I call a "clone".

From what I understand, bulk brewing has a pretty big impact on hop schedule, efficiencies, specialty grain extraction, and yeast performance. It's not unreasonable to imagine that a very different recipe could produce a more representative flavor than a scaled, authentic recipe when homebrew methods and volumes are employed.

Not that I'm saying you're wrong... I'm just saying you might be. And if you ask me, not tasting like Blue Moon would be an improvement.

 

[midfielder5]

off-topic .. sorry!

There are marked differences not attributable to scale (BM uses 2-row, US 05 and hallertau; the clone uses pils malt, belgian wit yeast and cascade; etc.).. plus the AHS owner admitted it was not representative, in the Blue Moon thread on here. He replicated Celis White, not Blue Moon. Celis White is a more tasty beer but is not a clone. All I'm saying is just because AHB wrote the recipe doesn't mean it is a better clone or has more inside info than VeganBrewer's version #4. I won't say any more. on topic: cheers and happy brewing!

 

[barrooze]

New bottles look good!

Yup! I had three vials delivered today and all were intact with zero leaking. Placed my order with Farmhouse Brewing Supply last night for the last ingredients needed for this. I'm excited!

 

[doublehaul]

I got some Yeast Geek as well. You think if I got 1 vial going in 1.5L starter tonight on a stir plate, it would be ready to pitch tomorrow afternoon? I know it's cutting close but the shipment was delayed and I'd still like to brew tomorrow.

 

[CliffMongoloid]

Yup! I had three vials delivered today and all were intact with zero leaking. Placed my order with Farmhouse Brewing Supply last night for the last ingredients needed for this. I'm excited!

Your ahead of me man.. Best of luck

 

[Trail]

off-topic .. sorry!

There are marked differences not attributable to scale (BM uses 2-row, US 05 and hallertau; the clone uses pils malt, belgian wit yeast and cascade; etc.).. plus the AHS owner admitted it was not representative, in the Blue Moon thread on here. He replicated Celis White, not Blue Moon. Celis White is a more tasty beer but is not a clone. All I'm saying is just because AHB wrote the recipe doesn't mean it is a better clone or has more inside info than VeganBrewer's version #4. I won't say any more. on topic: cheers and happy brewing!

Ah, wow - did not know that. Quite a striking set of differences! I suppose his motivation is name recognition?

 

[barrooze]

I got some Yeast Geek as well. You think if I got 1 vial going in 1.5L starter tonight on a stir plate, it would be ready to pitch tomorrow afternoon? I know it's cutting close but the shipment was delayed and I'd still like to brew tomorrow.

You should be fine.

 

[doublehaul]

Does anyone do a 60 minute boil on this recipe?