Grain Wines?

[mgonbrewlab]

Anyone have experience making grain wines? I saw a recipe for barley wine in Terry Gary's book I am thinking of trying. Can I use the grain I already have on hand for beer (2-row, caramel/crystal, smoke) or do I need unmalted barley (like bulk grain from the health food store)? I do not have enough grain on hand to make a batch of beer, but this would suitably clear out the cupboard.

Assuming 1 lb of grain and 3 lbs of sugar per gallon, I was thinking of making 2 gallons with mostly two row and the rest being smoke malt and caramel 90L (ie: what I have on hand) for my grains. I planned on adding a pinch of clove to the primary, as well, and maybe trying to steep in orange/black pekoe and raspberry stem tea to one gallon in secondary.

Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks!

 

[pumpkinman2012]

A barley Wine is a type of beer, not wine.
Follow this link to the BJCP style guidelines for this type of beer, and do a search on the forums, you should get a ton of info and feedback.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Forgive me - it was in my winemaking book in a section on grain wines. I know barleywines (strong ale) and what I am making could not be described as beer by any means.

I am not mashing or doing anything to extract any significant amount of sugar from the grain, nor am I using malt extracts or beer yeasts. I am also not using hops.

So, with that in mind, can I use my beer grain to make grain wine?

 

[motobrewer]

No

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Out of curiosity, why not?

 

[max384]

Out of curiosity, why not?

I once made an unhopped beer as an experiment, and it was completely undrinkable. You need something to balance out the malt. It is possible... But the question is whether your final product will be something that can actually be enjoyed.

 

[Gavin C]

To satisfy my own curiosity I was hoping you could tell me what function the grain will serve in the recipe. Since you are not mashing it nor trying to extract sugars in any other manner what purpose does it serve?

 

[bernardsmith]

Never used barley to make a wine but I have used wheat berries and have used rice to make a wine - not saki... but I made those wines when I first started making wines - about 20 odd years ago. My guess is that there is no good reason why your idea would not result in a very drinkable wine... The flavor will come from the grains and the alcohol from your sugar source... Good luck

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I once made an unhopped beer as an experiment, and it was completely undrinkable. You need something to balance out the malt. It is possible... But the question is whether your final product will be something that can actually be enjoyed.

You are thinking of this as if the malt is being mashed or fermented.

These are whole grain kernels from which color and flavor are extracted, minimal starches or sugar.

Thank you Bernardsmith for the insight. Glad someone has tried something similar.

I guess I will be back in a year and a half or so to let you know how it is

 

[mgonbrewlab]

To satisfy my own curiosity I was hoping you could tell me what function the grain will serve in the recipe. Since you are not mashing it nor trying to extract sugars in any other manner what purpose does it serve?

What purpose does steeping grain fulfill? Color and flavor.

I started the malt tea to soak tonight - 1 lb 10 oz of 2-row, 6 oz of Caramel-90, and 1 oz roasted barley. Smell is amazing.

 

[motobrewer]

post terry's recipe.

 

[max384]

You are thinking of this as if the malt is being mashed or fermented.

These are whole grain kernels from which color and flavor are extracted, minimal starches or sugar.

Thank you Bernardsmith for the insight. Glad someone has tried something similar.

I guess I will be back in a year and a half or so to let you know how it is

Oh I see. So basically you're making kilju, and steeping grains? I still wouldn't expect it to taste much different (stronger thigh, off choose) than the unhopped beer I made... But I've been known to be wrong before!

Since it'll be basically just sugar water and some color and flavors from the grain, make sure to use plenty of yeast nutrient, more than you would use in a grape wine.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

post terry's recipe.

From "The Joy of Home Winemaking"
1 lb. whole or cracked barley

3 lbs. sugar or 3½ lbs. light honey

½ lb. golden raisins

zest and juice of 2 large fresh lemons or 4 tsps. acid blend

zest and juice of 2-3 oranges

½ tsp. tannin

1 tsp. yeast nutrient

1 Campden tablet, crushed (optional)

½ tsp. pectic enzyme (if you use the oranges)

1 packet champagne or sherry yeast


Recipe calls to soak the barley and raisins overnight, and then from there it is the same process as making any fruit wine.

Earlier in the chapter she mentions brewing grain, but I wasn't sure if anyone had been brave enough to try it and would be willing to share their experience.

 

[motobrewer]

are you sure the title of that book isn't "The Joy of Prison Cell Winemaking"?

if you make it, be sure to post about it. that recipe looks terrible.

 

[bernardsmith]

Motobrewer, why does that recipe look any more "terrible" than a recipe to make wine from say hibiscus or elderberry flowers?
The one thing I might do is increase the amount of grain from 1 lb /gallon to about 3 /gallon. You are looking for the flavor from the grains (presumably) and not just the color... and I am not convinced that 1 lb of grain will provide enough flavor. The wine tastes nothing like beer. Tastes more like a sauterne if my memory serves me (but often it doesn't)... My standard practice was and still is to aim for an ABV of about 12 % and ferment dry.

 

[Gavin C]

What purpose does steeping grain fulfill? Color and flavor.

I started the malt tea to soak tonight - 1 lb 10 oz of 2-row, 6 oz of Caramel-90, and 1 oz roasted barley. Smell is amazing.

Gotcha. Thanks. Makes sense now. if you are using 3.5lbs of honey would that not make it a mead derivative?

If using sugar I guess not. Best of luck with it.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Motobrewer, why does that recipe look any more "terrible" than a recipe to make wine from say hibiscus or elderberry flowers?
The one thing I might do is increase the amount of grain from 1 lb /gallon to about 3 /gallon. You are looking for the flavor from the grains (presumably) and not just the color... and I am not convinced that 1 lb of grain will provide enough flavor. The wine tastes nothing like beer. Tastes more like a sauterne if my memory serves me (but often it doesn't)... My standard practice was and still is to aim for an ABV of about 12 % and ferment dry.

I may need to split the difference and do 2 lbs for 1 gallon, as I am doing this to empty out my remaining grain and I don't want to go any heavier on the roasted barley, and I am suspect about how the smoke malt would taste in here - if you think it (the smoke malt) would taste OK I can add 4 oz of that to get me up to 2.25 lbs.

I am thinking if chopping up a couple bananas, simmering them w the sugar solution and throwing them in to help smooth things out and add a little extra mouthfeel.

I am going to use 2.75 lbs sugar and 1 lb of honey. I am going to skip the tea bags this time, though, and maybe let this bulk age to try blending it with a flower wine when I get a chance to start one this summer.

 

[bernardsmith]

That will be a high ABV wine - close enough to 4 lbs of fermentables so that suggests a starting gravity of about 1.160 or a potential of 20 - 21 % ABV.
I used only wheat berries rather than brewing grains so I cannot speak to the impact of the smoked malt but what you might do is emphasize the smokiness by perhaps, oaking this wine using oak cubes or chips that have soaked in a peaty whisky ( I am Scottish) for a week or so (about 10 g of oak /gallon for a week or so before bottling (or after fermentation)

 

[stratslinger]

Just out of curiosity, do you expect the one crushed camden tablet to knock out all the lactobacillus that's likely all over the grain? Would there be some sort of boil at the start to do the same?

Without that, that's got a great chance of being very, very tart.

Or, you know, tasting like feet if you get some of the "wrong" nasties.

A buddy of mine made a no-boil berliner twice - first time was amazing, second time smelled like cheese and tasted kind of like feet.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I can use additional campden tablets, but the grain was rinsed prior to soaking.

Bernard, I am skipping the raisins - would this help?

 

[bernardsmith]

I suspect the raisins are in the recipe to add tannins and perhaps also some nutrients for the yeast. they may also help provide some more complex mouthfeel... They are not there for their sugar content and I ignored that aspect when I did my rule of thumb calculation for the potential ABV. So, IMO, you can either eliminate the raisins if you are including sufficient tannins and nutrients and are prepared for a thinner mouthfeel or you may want to keep them in the mix to add that additional layer of complexity to the flavor.

I know brewers are near apoplectic about the existence of bacteria and wild yeast but wine makers seem to be quite relaxed because of the action of SO2 from K-meta (the campden tabs).. Brewers use heat we use sulfur dioxide. I doubt that a barrel of freshly picked wine grapes covered in bird poop, bugs and dirt has less bacteria and yeast on the skins than a couple of pounds of grain... SO2 seems to take care of the mould, bacteria and yeast...

 

[mgonbrewlab]

So, I kept my fruit but decreased my total sugar to give me a gravity of 1.09. I also gave my yeast some sugar while rehydrating so it was actively foaming up when I pitched.

I took a bit of a chance, but now I feel better. When I rinsed the grain I kept those first runnings (almost two quarts) and added that to the water I heated to dissolve sugar and simmer my bananas.

I haven't been home yet to check it but this morning the must had a very bready smell and it was a very dark gold (almost garnet). I am excited for how this may turn out.

 

[cla]

I made a gallon of wheat wine once. Won't be doing it again.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I took my grain bag out a couple days ago and covered it up. I have 2 gal in an ale pail and the airlock is still going crazy. The color is now a light gold. I am thinking I will add some raisins in the secondary for some extra body.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Racked this off to secondary today. I must have had more of my first runnings than I thought as I had close to 2.75 gallons in my primary (including sediment). I split this into 3 secondaries (1 gallon jug and 2 old port jugs, 3L I think). One of the port jugs rec'd mint extract, 1 rec'd cloves, and the gallon will get .5 lbs of chopped raisins.

My first sample was hot tasting, but it has some promise. Time will tell how it turns out, but I definitely see blending some of this with some of my banana and pineapple wines.

 

[RachmaelBenApplebaum]

are you sure the title of that book isn't "The Joy of Prison Cell Winemaking"?

if you make it, be sure to post about it. that recipe looks terrible.

I have this book and it's absolutely true. Pretty much all recipes call for nothing but sugar and orange juice for acid alongside very random ingredients. There's one that MIGHT be ok for cooking that's roasted garlic wine. It's almost as bad as the alaskan bootleggers bible for wine recipes, but at least that book talks about certain good aspect of fermentation in laymans terms. I would, however, love to see a compilation of people's favorite pruno recipes. I wanna know how to properly make wine with cake frosting and fruit cups stolen from the kitchen in a gallon sized freezer bag hidden in my laundry.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

I have this book and it's absolutely true. Pretty much all recipes call for nothing but sugar and orange juice for acid alongside very random ingredients. There's one that MIGHT be ok for cooking that's roasted garlic wine. It's almost as bad as the alaskan bootleggers bible for wine recipes, but at least that book talks about certain good aspect of fermentation in laymans terms. I would, however, love to see a compilation of people's favorite pruno recipes. I wanna know how to properly make wine with cake frosting and fruit cups stolen from the kitchen in a gallon sized freezer bag hidden in my laundry.

Yeah, I am not buying that. Every recipe gives acid in terms of citrus or acid blend. The only fault I have found is the beginning section has you keep your wine fermenting on the fruit too long, and there are some gaps with process (sulphuting with every other racking, not putting bottles on their side immediately, and little stuff like that). I have been working from this book as a starting point and have had some great success with the recipes, and have combined a couple to make some pretty decent wine.

 

[bernardsmith]

Just for the record, I was looking up something in CCJ Berry's First Steps in Winemaking and he has a section on wines from grains... including wheat berry wine and rice wine.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

My first mason jar cleared so I topped my carboys up a little further and had another taste. Pretty pleasant - it has a bit of a lemony bite and a touch of the burnt malts. This would be a great base for a hard iced tea

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Cracked a bottle tonight of a blend I bottled 5 weeks ago - 75% barley wine with the recipe above, 25% banana wine with some crushed dried cloves. Still needs time to age, but it is really showing promise. The citrus and barley really go well together. Color is a dark gold/amber. Not like anything I have tasted, but damn good.

Thinking next time I go with 1 lbs of 2-Row or Munich + a light Crystal malt + either Red Wheat or Chocolate wheat. Maybe 1.5 to 1.75 lbs of grain per gallon, plus a can of grape concentrate, a grapefruit, and sugar to 1.10 SG. Maybe even a dry hop addition.

 

[mgonbrewlab]

Forgive the smudging - I guess my hands are oily.

I started another 3 gal batch of this last night with 1.5 lbs of grain per gallon (pale malt, pilsen malt, marris otter, and just a smidge of roasted barley and chocolate malt). I added a can each of lemonade and OJ concentrate, and 5 lbs of sugar for the 3 gal. I can already tell it will be lighter than my last wine, but I am looking forward to how it will turn out. My wife is really digging these grain wines blended with fruit wines, and at $4 per gallon it really makes for a great blending wine.

View attachment 1435803883775.jpg