First kettle sour

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Hey all, thinking of brewing my first kettle sour soon (at the request of SWMBO..). The thing is, i don't have a pH meter (and don't plan on buying one). Hoping it's still possible to brew a good kettle sour. Is there a certain amount of time that would likely achieve a low enough pH to have a nice sour taste? and is pre-acidifying with acid typical?

Thanks guys

 

[gypsyhead]

Depending on your pitch size, temp, O2 control, you can easily kettle sour in 12-24 hours, with 16-18 usually being enough to drop to 3.7pH if you can pitch a lacto starter at 10% of total volume (2L for a 5gal batch).
Easiest way I've found to maintain temp is to pre-boil, then cool the wort down to 100F, transfer to a CO2 purged PET carboy sitting inside my Igloo cooler mash tun. Leave an airlock on there as you will likely see some attenuation. Wrap that whole thing in a sleeping bag and hope for the best, or invest in a small immersion/aquarium heater to maintain a water bath around the carboy at your desired souring temp.

Unfortunately this is definitely not one of those times you want to sour "to taste," as you are cultivating under conditions that could allow pathogens to flourish. A large starter at a low pH will drop your wort pH down into a safe range if 4.7 or below normally.

 

[Rob2010SS]

@pursuit0fhoppiness I would highly recommend a pH meter in the future if you plan to continue to do kettle sours. However, for one I think we can get you through it. What souring agent are you using?

I've done a few now and I use Omega OYL-605 Lacto for the souring. In approx. 36-40 hours, it drops down to a pH of 3.3 which is fairly sour. Reminds me of the sourness of the Destihl Wild Sour series.

I'm going to disagree with @gypsyhead slightly. You should not see attenuation at all, at least using Omega's lacto. The most attenuation you might see is 1 or 2 points, but it should not be more than that. Here is my process when doing a kettle sour...

1. Perform Mash and lauter to boil kettle as normal.
2. Perform short (10 min) boil just to make sure all unwanted bugs are dead.
3. Chill to 100*F (Double check the temp range of whatever souring agent you are using. This is specific to OYL-605)
4. Pre acidify wort to a pH of 4.0-4.4 using 88% Lactic Acid (I want to say this was like 3 tsp per 5 gallons if I remember correctly)
5. Pitch the lacto
6. Cover the kettle with plastic wrap and wrap the sides of the kettle with a couple layers of tin foil (Not 100% necessary but I feel like it helps hold in heat)
7. Put thermometer in wort through the plastic wrap with gauge on outside of plastic wrap so you can read temperature.
8. Keep kettle on stove (if able to do so) so that if temp gets to the low side, can turn on the stove and heat it up if need be.
9. Once wort is at desired sourness, perform rest of process as usual.

Like I said, you should be able to do this without a pH meter but I highly recommend one.

 

[Rob2010SS]

In answer to your question, pre-acidifying is typical. It helps keep unwanted bugs at bay during the kettle souring phase

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I would use this as an opportunity to get a pH meter. Anytime SWMBO asks me to do something, I pretty much have carte blanche to procure the tools necessary for the job. This is pretty much how I got my entire set of tools.

Unfortunately, she doesn't request much of me for brewing other than to brew more NEIPAs, for which I've got all the gear I need. Well, fermentation under pressure might make them better....

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Thanks Rob, great answers! So when you say "rest of process as usual".. Do I bring the wort to a boil again afterwards to boil off DMS and add late-addition hops if necessary? And then chill, transfer to fermenter, pitch yeast and ferment for a couple weeks as normal?

Thanks for the help all

 

[Rob2010SS]

Thanks Rob, great answers! So when you say "rest of process as usual".. Do I bring the wort to a boil again afterwards to boil off DMS and add late-addition hops if necessary? And then chill, transfer to fermenter, pitch yeast and ferment for a couple weeks as normal?

Thanks for the help all

You are correct. After the souring phase is complete, I run through a normal 60 minute boil afterwards and add hops as desired. I've heard of people skipping the full boil, which you could do as well. You will for sure want to do AT LEAST a 10 minute boil to kill off the lacto, but it sounds like you're planning on adding hops so you'll most likely be boiling it.

As a side note, I'm not sure if this is typical of all kettle sours or just with the Omega lacto, it is the foamiest boil I've ever seen. You ever buy the little round containers of cool whip? Once boiling, it foams up and looks just like that. Thick, white foam that looks like cool whip! Just a heads up in case you want to buy a foam decreaser or if you're kettle is going to be pretty full.

You planning on just a hopped sour or are you doing any fruit or anything?

 

[pursuit0fhoppiness]

Right on, thanks! Not planning any fruit, just want to try one out and get something drinkable. Won't even be a full 5 gal batch, probably like 3 or so, so at least I won't have to worry about a boil over. I don't normally make starters as I never make >5 gal batches and haven't made a "big" beer yet (and have never had a fermentation problem), will a normal pack of lacto be enough to pitch into the kettle if I'm doing a ~3 gal batch?

 

[Rob2010SS]

Yep, you'll be fine. I don't do lacto starters and I'm usually souring 6 gallons at a crack. There's enough in the pack to sour it fairly quickly.

That does make me think of two things though...
1. You will need less lactic acid than 3 tsp to pre-acidify the wort, as you're doing less volume
2. 36-40 hours may be too long for 3 gallons. May want to see what it's like at 30 hours, unless you and your wife like really sour beers. I like face puckering sourness so I would probably still let it go if it were my beer but not everyone likes those, lol.

Not sure if you've played with Bru'n water but you should be able to use that to figure out how much lactic acid to use to pre-acidify.

 

[gypsyhead]

White Labs and Wyeast lacto has a bit of yeast in there unfortunately. They all claim to be clean, but plate any and you'll get yeast. That's why purging is important to keep yeast growth to a minimum

 

[Rob2010SS]

@gypsyhead yeah i hear you. the first kettle sour I did, I had a yeast infected batch of lacto from Omega. I had like a 40 pt drop in gravity (1.080 to 1.040). I pre acidified and everything. This was before I knew that lacto SHOULDN'T drop your gravity more than a point or two. So I contacted Omega to find out if that was typical and they said no, that shouldn't have happened. They asked me to run through my process with them so I did and he said you did everything right, you must have had an infected batch. So they sent me a new pack of lacto and some gear! The next 2 batches maybe moved 1 point on gravity and they came out perfect.

 

[JLump]

In answer to your question, pre-acidifying is typical. It helps keep unwanted bugs at bay during the kettle souring phase

Pre souring also inhibits the lacto from producing some enzyme that breaks down proteins and decreases head retention.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/File:Mark_Horsley_Foam.jpg

 

[boomtown25]

Interesting read. I too plan on cranking up some sours soon (for the first time). Question: After your 36-40 hour time period of souring on lacto, if you plan to go into a 60 minute boil afterwards, do you skim off any pellicles or "funk" off the top, or do you move kettle straight to the burner?? I am interested in doing some fruit based sours so any input on that would be great as well.

 

[deadwolfbones]

I'd like to add (even though it's probably heresy for all-grain purists) that you can use DME to make a great quick sour.

I like to use a 50/50 or 60/40 mix of pilsner and wheat DME. Just bring your water to 170F, add the DME, stir to dissolve and hold there for ~15 minutes to pasteurize. Let cool to ~100F and add lacto pills or Goodbelly, hold it at 90-100F for a day or two, and taste every 6 hours or so to test the sourness. When it's soured to your liking, bring back to a boil for ~15 minutes and add whatever hops and other goodies you want, then ferment as usual.

It's some of the easiest beer I've ever made and consistently tasty. I prefer my own gose to Modern Times Fruitlands, and I consider that something of an accomplishment.

 

[ScoobyDude]

, and taste every 6 hours or so to test the sourness. When it's soured to your liking, bring back to a boil for ~15 minutes and add whatever hops and other goodies you want, then ferment as usual.

So I try to avoid dipping into my brews at all costs. What's your approach to grabbing a taste? Just sanitize a wine thief and pull a taste? ANy risks with multiple grabs and exposures to oxygen?

 

[ScoobyDude]

@deadwolfbones oops I replied within the quote above. But yeah, what's you approach to grabbing multiple tastes during souring? I have not kettle soured before.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

With a kettle sour, there's no need to sanitise whatever you're using to pull the sample (just make sure it's clean). The wort is getting boiled again anyway. Oxygen exposure isn't too much of an issue unless you're using fresh grain for souring (in that case oxygen can help some nasties in the grain).

However.....IMO co-pitching sours is easier than kettle souring. Check out this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/
My recipe for fruit sours, using the method above, is here
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/really-easy-fruit-sour.675345/

 

[RPh_Guy]

there's no need to sanitise whatever you're using to pull the sample (just make sure it's clean).

...
You should definitely sanitize things that touch it because you don't want wild yeast to start growing if it needs to sit longer.

IMO co-pitching sours is easier than kettle souring. Check out this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/fast-souring-modern-methods.670176/

+1

 

[deadwolfbones]

If you've pitched the right amount of lacto it shouldn't ever need to sit more than 48 hours.