First attempt at a gose

[stz]

Hello HBT.
I'm planning a gose, well two if a split batch counts. My understanding is that historically they were low in strength, barely hopped, contained coriander, salt to taste (and to help preserve) and developed a slight tartness from lactic activity. Reading about more modern takes on the classic style the coriander seems optional, the tartness comes from either upfront kettle souring, back end lactic activity and/or quite large amounts of aciduated malt and/or straight lactic additions and the SG is low to mid 40's. Reading about the craft forward takes on them they don't use coriander, use quite assertive kettle souring, assertive amounts of salt, fruit and SG's are mid 40's to 50.

I'm planning ...

47% pilsner malt
47% wheat malt
6% aciduated malt
Maybe bring calcium chloride to 200-250ppm. No additional calcium sulphate as it is approx 80ppm out of the tap. Treat mash and sparge water with lactic acid to bring rA down to 0-10ppm.

Mash at 64-65C for at least 60m. Preacidify with lactic acid to a pH of 4.5-4.7. Bring to the boil. Chill and kettle sour with delbrueckii held at 37-40C for two days.

Boil for X using sladek to reach 10-15IBU's. 1.5g/L sea salt straight into FV. Probably going to use bruxellensis trois to ferment as I've a lot of it at the moment and enjoy the bright tartness, moderately saliva provoking fruit esters? Also lots of wet s23, vermont ale and us05 if wanted. Dry yeast choices include a kolche, s04, Abbaye, K97, some depressing dry hefe yeasts, maybe some more.

Half the batch is getting blueberries, other half cherries. Maybe 41-42SG.

Main questions are ... I don't think I'll miss the coriander in a fruit beer. It seems really superfluous. Is this a massive mistake? Second is the salt rate. I've salted beers before and found the usual 1oz/5g to be weak sauce. Third is the choice of yeast, I'm sure they can be made with a lot of different yeast and that is likely doesn't matter too much. Fourth is the kettle sour aspect, lots of people are encouraging me to just use a bunch of aciduated malt and straight lactic additions, this feels ... wrong. Another person who makes them all the time ALWAYS pitches lactic with the yeast and lets it ride, but admits that it takes months to develop the desired character. I have concerns with hopping. I guess hopping too, some people are saying don't even bother, the guy who sours on the back end just uses mash hops. BIGGEST question is boil time. Pilsner malt is in my head as a good long boil to drive off DMS potential or almost no boil to minimise the breakdown of SMM into DMS. I know a guy who made an undrinkable DMS bomb with pilsner malt with a short boil and now has no problem with heat, but no boil before chilling. It would seem short boil is out, either heat to pasteurise, but no boil or go at least 40m.

The modern ones I drink are quite tart and salty indeed. Usually have a bunch of fruit character. Have perceivable hopping, are a fair strength and don't have any hint of coriander. I guess I'm aiming for this.

 

[Zuljin]

I've only done a one gallon batch to see how it gose. I used sea salt, coriander, acid malt, a safale US06 yeast.

This gave me that salty somewhat sour taste. The coriander went well with it.

I don't think I wrote down any quantities.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The vast majority of goses contain coriander. Maybe your taste buds just aren't picking up on it? To me it's not a gose without a hint of coriander. Whether you want it in your beer is up to your preference. You're making beer for you

Goses generally aren't overtly salty like sea water. Instead, the salt provides a light minerality to add complexity and soften the sourness.

Acidulated malt or straight lactic acid addition are bad ways to make sours in my opinion. It's like adding vodka to some steeped hops and barley and calling it beer because it's easier to skip the fermentation process. Glad you're making beer the right way!

Shoot for a mash pH of 5.2 using whatever amount of lactic acid and/or acidulated malt is needed.

Boil pH should be around 5.2 as well, if you believe the experts.

Skip the calcium chloride. You're adding LOTS of chloride via sodium chloride! (1.5g/L NaCl = 908ppm Cl)

Lactobacillus plantarum is by far the best choice for fast souring. It's clean, fast, works at a wide range of temperature, easily hits low pH, and inexpensive. However it is not hop-tolerant.

I've done either no boil (mash out and chill) or full 60 minute boil with pils malt. I haven't had DMS in either case. My boils are fairly vigorous; I lose 1-1.25gal (~4-5L) per hour in a 5 gal batch. Open kettle.

I like Sacc Trois a lot. Any yeast is fine based on what you want. However, pre-souring suppresses yeast character, so you won't get as much flavor from the yeast if you let Lacto run its course first.

Hops are optional in my opinion. I don't like bitterness in sour beer. I don't like bitterness in fruit beer. I especially don't like bitterness in sour fruit beer. If you want some hop flavor, dry hopping is the way to go. Again, just my opinion.

So all that said, here's what I'd suggest for you (assuming you're OK not killing the Lacto):
1. Mash as normal, adjusting mash pH to 5.2 and neutralize sparge water alkalinity, no other water adjustments.
2. Either boil for an hour, no hops, or just mash out and then chill. Either way works fine. No hops, no hops, no hops.
3. Remove 500mL of wort to make a Lacto starter, add a few grams of calcium carbonate, some yeast nutrient, and some dextrose if you have it lying around. Add L. plantarum. Cover and let sit at room temp.
3a. If you didn't boil, consider adjusting the wort pH (not the starter) to 4.5 with lactic acid. I'm not sure this is necessary, but it may help prevent off-flavors from wild microbes that survived the mash.
4. Pitch Sacc Trois. Ferment at 70-75°F (21-24°C).
5. After 2-3 days, add the Lacto starter, decanting it off of the calcium carbonate.
6. Monitor pH if you want, it will sour in a matter of days.
7. Add fruit. Add salt. Consider dry hopping. You still have the option to add coriander tea to taste. You can also add bitterness with a hop tea, if desired.

Cheers.

 

[stz]

I've never actually soured a beer at the back end? I've concerns about it taking too long, going too far, being inhibited by hops and so on.. I've done two kettle sours using plantarum from probiotic capsules, but not to great result, initially thought room temperature was the problem ... 5 days, slightly ropey looking, then thought the probiotics were a bit suspect (actual vs stated cell count) 3 days hot, looked fine, smelt great. They never really got sour enough for me 3.4 and some change post boil.

I don't normally boil kettle sours before souring, my go to method is now grain souring. I mash out at 80C to 'pasteurise' the wort, leave to chill to about 45C, toss in half a cup of grain, flow a little co2 through the wort and then seal it up and put in into my heated fermentation chamber at 38C. Gets me to 3.2 in two days with no signs of fermentation to speak of. I've done it once at room temperatures at reached 3.2 in 5 days, but it threw a meaty krausen and did 5 points, slightly dirty smelling, came out ok.

I too do not enjoy bitterness in sour beers or in sour fruit beers, but not using ANY hops just feels ... wrong? 10-15IBU's is worst case and almost feels like no hops to me? I think I'd have to be feelings very brave to forgo the hops completely. My favourite kettle sours are 4.5-5.5%, 5IBU's or less from a knock out whirlpool addition, pH 3.2, dragged back up to 3.4 with a healthy dry hop.

My rational for boiling before souring is as I'm using a proven culture I want to see what it does with anything potentially wild removed from the mix.

Good call on the chloride. 1.5g/L salt does indeed give a stupendous amount.

So on the fence about the coriander, no I can't detect it in any of the stupid fashionable craft examples I'm exposed to. If I was to brew a no hop, no fruit plain gose it'd be in there in a heartbeat. I just can't see how it'll play with the fruit and hop.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Since you already have a process you like for fast souring, just use that. No reason to overthink it.

The only things different about gose from any other fast sour are the coriander and water profile.