Do I need 2 row?

[O-Ale-Yeah]

I brewed some phenomenal beer last month with 12 pounds of Munich Malt 20L, 4 pounds dark wheat 8L, 1 pound carapils, and 1 pound carafa weyerman.

Hoping to replicate this success I visited my LHBS to pick up the same ingredients. The shopkeep said I had to mix in 2 pounds of 2 row to increase the diastatic properties. What happens if I do? What happens if I don't?

 

[Abrayton]

I don’t know the answer to that question but I brew Doppelbock that is 96% dark Munich with a sprinkle of caramunich and carafa and it’s awesome. I’m also curious for responses.

 

[mulletmaster]

If it worked before it stands to reason it would work again. Maybe some alpha amylase enzyme could help?

 

[Parrothead1]

https://brewfuse.com/grain-bill-principles-creating-homebrew-recipes/

 

[Qhrumphf]

The carafa and carapils shouldn't need much by way of conversion. The wheat and munich, especially if it's that dark of munich, may struggle to self-convert. Wheat is often quite enzymatic (but it seems to vary), but the more/hotter/darker you kiln the more enzymes you destroy in the process. At that level I'd expect the wheat to self-convert but not add much power to convert anything else. But as the base is that Munich, yeah I'd be concerned.

I've used Munich as a base malt many times, but only like 6-10L.

It may have worked last time if you didn't actually have that dark of munich malt.

 

[Bklmt2000]

No need to add 2-row unless you wanted to. From what I saw in the OP, i'd leave a winning recipe alone.

There's no problem using a grain bill that's heavy on Munich, and if you're concerned about conversion, let the mash rest for a full 60-90 minutes. Most Munich malts have enough enzymes to do the needed conversion work, but since Munich is kilned a bit more than most base malts, its enzyme levels tend to be a bit lower compared to pilsner/2-row malts, but enough to do the job if given enough time.

You're also getting some add'l enzymes from the 8L dark wheat malt, probably fewer than what you'd find in pale/regular wheat malt, but they'll supplement the enzymes already provided by the Munich malt.

So, long story short, I'd ignore the shopperson on this, since you've brewed this recipe before and liked how it turned out.

 

[MaaZeus]

You get better conversion with lighter malts but if your recipe calls for all munich then go for it. Isn't Doppelbock all munich usually? It may not convert as well as light 2-row or Pilsner but brewing heavy beers is certainly not a problem.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brewer's Friend calculator shows diastatic power of only 16°L; and they say at least 30°L is good for fully converting a mash. (I used dark wheat at 6.5° in the calculator since that was closest.)

Is this recommendation just bogus? If yes, then how can you actually determine whether a particular grain bill has enough diastatic power to convert?

 

[cswant88]

If you hit your OG and the beer is good, why change it? Also I don’t see a couple pounds of base malt in that grain bill altering the final product too significantly.

 

[RPh_Guy]

The 2-row would double the calculated diastatic power.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

.

 

[bracconiere]

from what i know i've made munich malt...it's just kilned hotter...it made dark beer, but had plenty conversion power....

 

[MaaZeus]

You get better conversion with lighter malts but if your recipe calls for all munich then go for it. Isn't Doppelbock all munich usually? It may not convert as well as light 2-row or Pilsner but brewing heavy beers is certainly not a problem.

Quoting myself, after checking a few Doppelbock recipes they aren't all Munich after all, just majority of it. Couple of pounds of pilsner or 2-row malt is also used.

 

[O-Ale-Yeah]

Quoting myself, after checking a few Doppelbock recipes they aren't all Munich after all, just majority of it. Couple of pounds of pilsner or 2-row malt is also used.

Hmmmm.... Well, it might be a decent experiment.

 

[O-Ale-Yeah]

If I add the 2 row, what happens? Does my final gravity end up lower? Does the beer come out dryer? Does the ABV end up higher?

 

[elgatovolador]

If I add the 2 row, what happens? Does my final gravity end up lower? Does the beer come out dryer? Does the ABV end up higher?

I believe dryness wouldn’t be affected by the grain you choose...dryness is a function of how much sugar gets converted to alcohol by the yeast. How much sugar gets converted depends on the yeast strain, yeast cell count, how well you aerate the wort etc.

Depending on how you use the 2-row in your grain bill you could balance out the percentages to get the same OG.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I believe dryness wouldn’t be affected by the grain you choose...dryness is a function of how much sugar gets converted to alcohol by the yeast.

Mashing parameters absolutely do affect dryness, and diastatic power is one of those parameters. Low diastatic power may lead to a much larger percentage of dextrins, and thus a much lower attenuation.

 

[elgatovolador]

Mashing parameters absolutely do affect dryness, and diastatic power is one of those parameters. Low diastatic power may lead to a much larger percentage of dextrins, and thus a much lower attenuation.

I skipped that chapter on How to Brew haha I’ll revisit that one

 

[mashpaddled]

If you liked your first attempt then you should not change it unless you have problems with subsequent batches. Most of the barley grown today for malting has so much enzyme that even darker base malts have ridiculously high diastatic power. You should be fine without adding pale malt or pils with that recipe.

 

[hottpeper13]

What I do on mine when using malt with low diastatic power but still enough for self conversion is to mash low and long. Mash in at 143* rest 60 min then add boiling liquor to hit 158-160 and rest 30 min. I do BIAB or MIAB so my mill is set to the tightest setting and I get 80-86% eff. and conversion happens faster with a tighter grind. If single infusion is all you got I would do 148* for 120 min.

 

[Beernik]

Your grain bill needs a diastatic power > 30L.

You’ll should check the maltster’s reported info for diastatic power and run a calc because it can vary wildly from maltster to maltster when it comes to Munich. The lighter the Munich, the more diastatic power it will have.

Light Munich Malt is usually in the 30L to 50L range, so technically you’ll be fine. The problem you run into is the amount of time it takes to achieve full conversion. I like to keep the diastatic power of a grain bill over 60 so I’m not wasting time waiting on a mash.

 

[O-Ale-Yeah]

https://brewfuse.com/grain-bill-principles-creating-homebrew-recipes/

I read through that info and it basically says that low diastatic power results in lower efficiency.

 

[O-Ale-Yeah]

Mashing parameters absolutely do affect dryness, and diastatic power is one of those parameters. Low diastatic power may lead to a much larger percentage of dextrins, and thus a much lower attenuation.

Okay thanks. I was wandering if that were the case.

 

[IslandLizard]

As said before, your grist need an average diastatic power of 30°Lintner to fully convert, but it may struggle at that, needing more time, and low mash temps to reduce dextrins (148F). I aim for 35°L just in case the malts are a bit out of spec.

Are you sure that Munich was 20L, not 20 EBC (which is about 8.1L)?
20L sounds really dark for Munich, and won't have enough DP to convert itself. Which maltster?

For illustration:
Weyermann Munich II is 8.0-9.9L
35-46% Hartong 45°C ==> Can just convert itself
Not sure why they don't spec out DP anymore...

Weyermann Dark Wheat Malt: 6.2 - 8.1L
33-47% Hartong 45°C ==> Can just convert itself

https://www.weyermann.de/downloads/..._Distillery_Malts_Extracts_05.03.2019_eng.zip