Do Bittering Hops Even Matter?

[Jordan Logo]

Hello Y'all!

I've heard so much about how putting in hops at your 60-55 min boil doesn't really impart much flavor, but I wanted to hear all your guys' opinions.

So, does 60-55min boil hops impart any flavor descriptions as they are described, or are they simply just bettering hops?

Bonus question: At what minute in the boil are hops actually detectible?

I'd love @Brulosopher to do an experiment on this... I think it would be an awesome experiment. It might be a heavy experiment where you'd have to do 7 smaller batches - using the same hop - 1 at 60 mins for your bettering hop test, 1 at 50, 1 at 40, etc... My only hiccup I can see is that how would you test a beer with a bittering hop at 60 mins with a hop addition at 30 mins?

 

[RM-MN]

Flavor is mostly aroma so any hop oils that are aromatic will be mostly boiled off at 60 minutes. However, I did a batch where I did not want any hop flavor and detected quite a bit with an hour boil using Cascade so I think it may have to do with the variety of hop. That means you would need to do hundreds if not thousands of tests to tell which hop left flavors at how many minutes of boil.

 

[VikeMan]

So, does 60-55min boil hops impart any flavor descriptions as they are described, or are they simply just bettering hops?

I think the answer is "it depends." Two extreme examples...

1) An IPA with loads of late boil, whirlpool, and dry hop additions. The flavor/aroma contribution of a 60 minute hop will probably be lost in the noise.

2) A 40 IBU SMaSH beer, with Pilsner malt and a clean (say Chico) yeast strain, with hops only at 60 minutes. 40 IBUs of Fuggles vs 40 IBUs of Citra should be easy to detect.

In between, well that's the stuff internet arguments are made of.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

My Blonde Ale only has about 20 IBU with a single 60-minute hop addition. I've made it with Willamette and Amarillo, and they taste different from one another. So in a clean, basic recipe - yeah, I'd say it matters.

 

[Brettomomyces]

yes. It might not be noticable in an American IPA but in a German helles lager or similar pale style with 1 or 2 hop additions the differences are stark

 

[day_trippr]

[...]I'd love @Brulosopher to do an experiment on this...[...]

hahahahaha!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Do Bittering Hops Even Matter?

Yes.

I've heard so much about how putting in hops at your 60-55 min boil doesn't really impart much flavor, but I wanted to hear all your guys' opinions.

Consider reading The New IPA by Scott Janish. While the book is mostly focused on hops and IPAs, there are many topics that apply to all styles of beer.

So, does 60-55min boil hops impart any flavor descriptions as they are described, or are they simply just bettering hops?

Depends on the hop variety. There is a claim in The New IPA (eBook location 739) that boiling with hops will create new flavor/aroma compounds not found in the hop.

Bonus question: At what minute in the boil are hops actually detectible?

For measurable IBUs, see p 23 in the PDF associated with the Nov 1, 2018 episode of Basic Brewing Radio.

 

[ChaosB]

Yes.

Consider reading The New IPA by Scott Janish. While the book is mostly focused on hops and IPAs, there are many topics that apply to all styles of beer.

Depends on the hop variety. There is a claim in The New IPA (eBook location 739) that boiling with hops will create new flavor/aroma compounds not found in the hop.

For measurable IBUs, see p 23 in the PDF associated with the Nov 1, 2018 episode of Basic Brewing Radio.

He also said that you get better hop oil extraction at cold temperatures... Maybe so but all I got was grassy hop pellet flavor. There's a lot of good science but as far as methods, I'd take all with a grain of salt.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

He also said that you get better hop oil extraction at cold temperatures

Do you remember where that was mentioned in the book?

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I'd love @Brulosopher to do an experiment on this...

Like these?
http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/07/bittering-hops-high-vs-low-cohumulone-exbeeriment-results/http://brulosophy.com/2016/07/18/bittering-hops-pt-2-high-vs-low-alpha-acid-exbeeriment-results/http://brulosophy.com/2019/08/05/bi...addition-to-the-same-ibu-exbeeriment-results/
It is something that I want to play with myself. I have been using Columbus as my generic Pale Ale/IPA bittering hop. I feel like it is easier to tune in my bitterness levels with the same hop. I picked up some Northern Brewer (German) to use as a bittering hop for Belgian beers cuz I don't like the idea of using 2.4% aa hops for bittering and Northern Brewer felt like something that might be found in a Belgian brewery.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How does cohumulone affect bitterness?

 

[dnr]

Brülosophy has probably done an experiment (or exBEERiment) if you can think of it. He mentioned on a recent episode of his podcast putting different hops in at different points in the boil to see if they could be identified by flavor.
Also, aren't there hops that are known for being very clean bittering hops, imparting very little flavor or aroma.
If you use a "clean" hop with a high alpha acid @ 60 minutes, that will be very different than an "aromatic" hop with a loW alpha acid @ 60. No?
While the aroma will cook off, there must be some residual. Many new IPAs are only doing a kettle addition during whirlpool. This gives done bitterness, but still retains much of the armor/flavor.
What kind of beer are you making?
What kind of hops are you using?
What IBU vs flavor are you trying to hit?

 

[dnr]

Basic Brewing Radio
May 25, 2017 - Hop Timing Experiment

Steve Wilkes and Casey Letellier help James evaluate an experiment comparing three beers with single hop additions at 60 minutes, 30 minutes and flameout.

iTunes | Streaming mp3

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brülosophy has probably done an experiment (or exBEERiment) if you can think of it.

Yeah, it's a shame they're so bad at science.

 

[VikeMan]

Yeah, it's a shame they're so bad at science.

My main concern with them isn't even issues with the science itself. It's in the way the results are presented. Example:

• Triangle Test with 26 participants
• 12 participants correctly identify the sample that's different
• p = 0.083

The conclusion is "...these results suggest tasters in this xBmt were unable to reliably distinguish...”

Gosh, I guess there's no difference! How different would the average reader's impression be with full disclosure? Something like...

If there were no difference between the beers, there was a 91.7% chance that less than 12 participants would have correctly identified the sample that was different.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Yeah, it's a shame they're so bad at science.

Maybe it's as "simple" as this: people want to enjoy beer with friends.

 

[dnr]

Maybe it's as "simple" as this: people want to enjoy beer with friends.

What's..."friends"?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What's..."friends"?

People you trust to do the right thing when there is an opportunity to share.

 

[smata67]

What's..."friends"?

Friends are the people left when the beer runs out.

 

[stickyfinger]

i made a belgian golden strong ale one time and used a ton of like saaz or something continental at 60 minute. i swear i could taste a little bit of hop flavor in the final beer. i'd stick with very clean bittering hops for beers where you really don't want any flavor at all such as certain lagers and belgians and such.

 

[dnr]

So I just bottled a Pilsener Newport SMASH. I added 1.5 oz Newport at 60 and .5 oz at 15.
I had a little left over after racking, bottled to a soda bottle, cold crashed and tested it. My wife said it was juicy and bright but still quite bitter. I'd almost describe it as an Arnold Palmer, but with lemon pith, too.

Anyway, I expected a lot less aromatics from my 10.9% AA Newport hops that are supposed to taste like fresh cut hay.