Diastaticus yeast (Belle Saison)

[z-bob]

I've never tried this yeast, but I have a packet in my fridge. Do I need to break out my glass carboys (poor choice of words, there) to avoid contaminating my plastic buckets and carboys if I use it? Is this yeast such a monster I shouldn't even mess with it?

 

[bucketnative]

I use it routinely. I think you are fine with normal sanitation practices. At least that is what I have found.

 

[z-bob]

I just found another active thread on this same topic https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/is-3711-belle-saison-a-contaminant.643842/page-3 (sorry, I didn't look in the general discussion forum before starting a new one here)

I probably will use glass fermenters for it. And be extra careful sterilizing my bottling wand and hoses afterwards. And other than that, not worry about it.

 

[Braufessor]

Personally, I think the concern is a bit overblown..... Home brewers have been using this yeast for a long, long time... The problem really came when a professional brewery got yeast that seems to have potentially contaminated with this. And, then they packaged a beer in bottles, not knowing it was in there, and that it would continue attenuating after packaging.

If you are brewing a saison with this, and you are fully expecting it to attenuate out, you should have no problem with the beers you purposely brew with it.

If you properly sanitize and clean your stuff, you should be good. Many recommend using both an iodophor rinse and a star san rinse to assure you are doing the job on this one.... I think that is a good recommendation.

Personally, I have a set of equipment (hoses, blow offs, kegs, disconnects) that I use specifically for my saisons...... which may use brett, this yeast, lacto, etc...... But, I don't have a set of equipment that I only set aside for this yeast in addition to the other things I might use in saisons.

 

[z-bob]

I know the problem isn't the beer brewed with Belle Saison; it's the *next* batch brewed with something else much less attenuating that picks up a few cells of Belle during packaging.

My bottling hose has a biofilm in it already; been trying to figure out the best way to clean it out (I should just replace it.) Soaking in bleach doesn't get it out, and long soaks in StarSan doesn't either. Haven't tried peroxide yet. I may throw it in the washing machine next time I bleach a load of whites... I'm not so much concerned about the hose, it's the biofilm elsewhere that I might not be aware of.

Iodophor, huh. What about Povidone Iodine? (I have that already) Or Quaternary ammonia? Thanks.

 

[Smellyglove]

For what it's worth. I know a few brewers who has used belle, got biofilm (unaware at the time), had a hard time cleaning out. From my standpoint A: Don't use belle B: Use dedicated equipment, also dedicated bottles. As far as I see it I'd go for A. Why risk it if you go the cleaning route to have to clean excessively for a strain that imo isn't worth that cleaning. Go liquid yeast for example, way less hassle to make a starter than to clean out and still be unsure, and potentially risk latter batches just for one strain.

 

[z-bob]

If I want to brew a saison using yeast that I already have, would T-58 do okay if I replace a little of the malt with table sugar or honey to dry it out? Probably something like 75% Belgian pilsner malt, 25% pale ale malt, and noble(ish) hops, fermented in the low 70's. Although that's not much different than the blonde ale in my fermenter right now.

 

[corax]

If the problem is diasticus specifically, then shouldn't one also be concerned with using Fermentis SafAle BE-134, Wyeast 3711, or WLP566?

 

[Dcpcooks]

I believe the concern is overblown. The issue is long term storage and a brewer not knowing it is present which will unknowingly change the beers final gravity. A biofilm can be cleaned with home brew quality cleaners and sanitizers.

 

[ba-brewer]

Is biofilm a type of pellicle or something else?

 

[Dcpcooks]

Yes a bio film is a type of pellicle. It’s a combo of protein and sugars that form a sticky matrix that sticks to surfaces. It’s difficult to remove without some form of manual abrasion.

Five star is coming out with a beer stone cleaner that should remove everything easily. In the mean time use PBW at 140-160 degrees followed by a hot rinse and sani clean or Star san

 

[ba-brewer]

Yes a bio film is a type of pellicle. It’s a combo of protein and sugars that form a sticky matrix that sticks to surfaces. It’s difficult to remove without some form of manual abrasion.

Five star is coming out with a beer stone cleaner that should remove everything easily. In the mean time use PBW at 140-160 degrees followed by a hot rinse and sani clean or Star san

Thanks for the clarification.

Never used belle saison, only ever used 3711 and it was well over a year ago and some how got an diastaticus contamination. I saved the hydro sample in a mason jar and it finally stopped working after maybe 6weeks. There is something on the surface but it looks more like a oil slick than the pellicles I got from bret in the past. The yeast sample from that batch which I saved in the fridge does not look to have any film on top of the beer.

Before knowing it was a diastaticus contamination I keg the beer as it did not taste that bad. As it looks like whatever kind diastaticus I got hit with does create a biofilm will I need to scrub the keg?

I know it would be best to give it a thorough cleaning, but I am thinking no/minimal O2 in the keg and no active yeast there should not be any pellicle/biofilm.

 

[corax]

I asked:

If the problem is diasticus specifically, then shouldn't one also be concerned with using Fermentis SafAle BE-134, Wyeast 3711, or WLP566?

So I finally slogged through the contentious thread referenced above (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/is-3711-belle-saison-a-contaminant.643842), and from what I can tell there are actually two distinct issues here.

First is the "diasticus" designation, which is not a strain designation as I had thought, but simply an indication that the yeast in question has some amylase activity (usually from the presence of the STA1 gene), making it super-attenuative. Apparently this activity is present in several otherwise unrelated strains, including the ones I asked about.

Second is the ability to form a biofilm, which is completely independent of the diasticus issue, and which could make any yeast a potential contamination problem (stressing potential, not inevitable with proper sanitation and/or isolation). Of the strains in question, it seems that the Belle Saison strain definitely is a biofilm producer, but it is not clear which of the other "diasticus" strains are, if any. If a strain is not a biofilm producer, it would be no more of a persistent contamination threat than any other yeast we use routinely, diasticus or no diasticus.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but I believe I'm observing this biofilm issue on a saison I brewed with Wyeast 3726 (Farmhouse ale). I noticed there is a very thin film remaining at the bottom of the bottles, even after some repeated and energetic rinses. Even oxyclean is apparently not able to get rid of it. I found the only way to remove it is by physically brushing the bottom of the bottles...
I did not observe something like this in any of the beers I brewed before, even wilder stuff that used brett.

Now I am a bit concerned that I may have infected my plastic fermenter. After that saison, I just bottled a porter out of it two weeks ago so we shall see...
I did not think about using other equipment because, in the past, I used the same equipment for both clean and bretty stuff and never hat a problem until now.

Anyone else noticing such a biofilm formation with the Wyeast 3726 strain?

 

[dmtaylor]

I know I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but I believe I'm observing this biofilm issue on a saison I brewed with Wyeast 3726 (Farmhouse ale). I noticed there is a very thin film remaining at the bottom of the bottles, even after some repeated and energetic rinses. Even oxyclean is apparently not able to get rid of it. I found the only way to remove it is by physically brushing the bottom of the bottles...
I did not observe something like this in any of the beers I brewed before, even wilder stuff that used brett.

Now I am a bit concerned that I may have infected my plastic fermenter. After that saison, I just bottled a porter out of it two weeks ago so we shall see...
I did not think about using other equipment because, in the past, I used the same equipment for both clean and bretty stuff and never hat a problem until now.

Anyone else noticing such a biofilm formation with the Wyeast 3726 strain?

Biofilm is possible, but I think it may be premature to be very concerned about yours yet. I would be curious to see how your porter is behaving after another 4 to 5 weeks, that would give you the information.

 

[rtstrider]

I used belle saison. Had issues in future beer batches. Ended up having to bleach my equipment and air dry in the sun

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Biofilm is possible, but I think it may be premature to be very concerned about yours yet. I would be curious to see how your porter is behaving after another 4 to 5 weeks, that would give you the information.

Thanks, I'll RDWAHAHB until then.
In fact that should be pretty easy to monitor because I did a split batch in a second fermenter that did not have the saison yeast before.
I used another yeast in that one, with a different attenuation level so it may not be 100% comparable. Nonetheless, having primed both halves of the batch the same way, if the portion that was on the post-saison fermenter will develop excessive carbonation, I'll be pretty sure to know the cause...

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Anyone else noticing such a biofilm formation with the Wyeast 3726 strain?

I don't think I have used this yeast. If Wyeast 3726 is just a Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast, then doesn't a biofilm point at an infection by another organism?

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

I don't think I have used this yeast. If Wyeast 3726 is just a Saccharomyces cerevisiae yeast, then doesn't a biofilm point at an infection by another organism?

Yes it is just S. cerevisiae. The often-cited origin of this strain being the Blaugies brewery.
From what I gather from this thread and elsewhere, the Belle saison strain is also just S. cerevisiae, but it is reported to routinely produce some hardy biofilms, which are sometimes difficult to get rid of.

 

[dmtaylor]

Belle and 3726 are officially "S. cerevisiae var diastaticus". They have special genes that make them quite a bit different from regular S. cerevisiae, even though all are the same species. Think of diastaticus as your loud-mouthed red-headed in-law.

 

[Steveruch]

Belle and 3726 are officially "S. cerevisiae var diastaticus". They have special genes that make them quite a bit different from regular S. cerevisiae, even though all are the same species. Think of diastaticus as your loud-mouthed red-headed in-law.

A swift kick in the yam sack and send him on his way?

 

[dmtaylor]

A swift kick in the yam sack and send him on his way?

Unfortunately it's not that easy. Even bleach alone won't kill him. A day in the sun under UV rays might do the trick though.

 

[hottpeper13]

I took the Brewing and Malting science class at UWM in 2017. In the Cleaning and Sanitation lecture we were told to follow a caustic CIP immediately with an acid CIP. The neutralizing action of the two causes the biofilm to lise and rinse away. It's like scrubbing bubbles,and a mechanical scrubbing is the only other way to get under the biofilm.

 

[dwhite60]

This is the only thing I use a dedicated glass a carboy for.

I've had what I believe to be cross contamination issue with Belle Saison and WB-06.

 

[ba-brewer]

I had a few reoccurring contaminations and I suspect I was doing it through the mason jars I used for collecting and saving yeast. Now periodically I give them a cleaning with a scrub and then fill them up with water and give them a pressure canning session at 15psi for 30min.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

3726 is a fave yeast of mine. Never had a problem with it.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Biofilm is possible, but I think it may be premature to be very concerned about yours yet. I would be curious to see how your porter is behaving after another 4 to 5 weeks, that would give you the information.

Alright, I'm resurrecting this thread for the second time, but it somehow came to my mind just now that I still wanted to give an update on this, FWIW... (for those interested, you might need to read the thread again, starting from post #14, to get back into the context of what I'm talking about).

So yes, I did have a diastaticus infection in that second porter split-batch, albeit it was a very latent one. After another 4-5 weeks (meaning 6-7 weeks from bottling) there was absolutely no sign of overcarbonation. The porter tasted great, and for several months it was also my preferred version out of the two split-batches. From what I could tell, the carbonation level stayed pretty constant for at least 4 months after bottling. I however noticed the same biofilm at the bottom of the bottles that was also present in my prior batch of WY 3726 saison. That was already a fairly clear sign of a possible infection to me, especially since it was completely missing from the bottles of the other split batch, which never came in contact with the diastaticus yeast.
After approx. 5 months, I started noticing a slight increase in carbonation in the potentially infected split batch. This increase continued fairly gradually during the following months, until by the time I drank the last bottle, almost one year from bottling, the beer was clearly overcarbonated while also displaying an excessive dryness for the style. Even then it wasn't yet overcarbed to the point of gushing, though.
FWIW, the second split batch never showed any signs of overcarbonation.

Moral of the story for me: I enjoyed both batches of porter (almost) to the last drop, but I also learned that our diastaticus friends can be a tricky buggy indeed. The infection can be latent and not easy to indentify. I would have dismissed that possibility, if I had not kept some bottles of the porter for 6+ months, and/or I had not observed the biofilm (which, by the way, was barely noticeable: I had to look into the bottles and against a good light source to see that).

What are your experiences? Is such a latent diastaticus infection, which develops slowly over several months, really a possibility? Or did I rather have some other buggers in there?
In any case, after first reading and posting in this thread I cleaned and sanitized that fermenter again and very thoroughly, and luckily I did not have any problems for the following beers I fermented there.
However, for the next time I am using diastaticus I might really think about getting an additional set of cold side plastic equipment.

 

[dmtaylor]

@Taket_al_Tauro, thank you for that update. Diastaticus is a bugger for many. Some get lucky, or drink it all up before it becomes a problem. Others, not so lucky and/or as quick.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

@Taket_al_Tauro, thank you for that update. Diastaticus is a bugger for many. Some get lucky, or drink it all up before it becomes a problem. Others, not so lucky and/or as quick.

Yeah, for the time being I prefer to keep my fingers away from diastaticus. I went back to using WY 3522 Ardennes, partly on its own, partly in combination with brett. I very much enjoyed the results obtained with this yeast in the past, especially when paired with brett. I know it's not a "saison" yeast strain, strictly speaking. Then again, according to Yvan de Baets, there are plenty of alternative yeast choices for brewing saison, right ;-)
Brasserie de la Senne’s Yvan De Baets Explains Saison’s Greatest Myth: the Yeast

 

[waancho]

There's no fun without Saison, I really like brewing with diastaticus. So I design my process and choose my equipment accordingly.

To sanitize my bottles, I bake them in the oven, so that will never be an issue.

For bottling I have a dedicated set of bottling wand, tubes, etc.

I also use glass carboys exclusively. After a diastaticus batch I fill them up with very warm (60C/140F) water and oxy cleaner (pure sodium percarbonate) and soak for as long as the water is hot. The carboys end up squeaky clean (also after using biofilm yeasts such as Belle).

And lastly, for extra assurance, when I brew in a carboy that has been used with diastaticus for the previous batch, I bottle with champagne yeast. Champagne yeast contains a so called kill factor that kills other yeast, (supposedly) including diastaticus. Besides that, champagne yeast carbs up quickly and reliably (think high gravity beers) over a large temperature range, is flavor neutral and floccs down like a brick when it's done.

 

[Ninoid]

I often use Belle Saison because I don't have fermentation temperature regulation, and that yeast is stable over a very wide temperature range. In addition, my beers with this yeast regularly have up to 25% table sugar, and I collect this yeast up to the 5th generation. After bottling the beer with Belle Saison yeast, I spray the plastic fermenter with Starsan ten minutes before decanting the wort and then I add US-05 yeast and it works without problems. A little Starsan that remains in the fermenter does not interfere with normal fermentation.