Cost of 240v 30a outlet

[augiedoggy]

I think I have done too much research and now am confusing myself.

Taking the GFI out of this equation, plugging the 3 wire (hot, hot, ground) element into the 3 prong dryer outlet (hot, hot, neutral); where does the grounding come from? Again taking the GFI out of this, would plugging the element in the dryer outlet be safe and grounded?


A second question that I should probably revisit in the morning after I get sleep is, if I wanted to hook up a spa panel to my dryer outlet so I could unplug my dryer and plug in the spa panel and then have an outlet in the spa panel to plug the 3 prong element into, how would I do that? I found this diagram from P_J that has the 3 wires going in but has 4 going out. I need hot, hot, neutral going in and hot, hot, ground going out.

Ok I'm going to bed and hopefully to think tomorrow. Thanks all

I suggest you do a search here on "gfci with 3 wire" or something to that effect there are at least a couple dozen threads on this... basically there is no way to do this and meet code, that said you can use a gfci with a three wire 220v oulet and it will work... your neutral and ground are connected in your main box and that is essentially what it is on a dedicated line until other 120v devices are being powered off of it in that circuit. chances are you have all four wires behind your dryer outlet... I would pull the cover and check, if you do the better way to go is to swap the outlet with a four conductor one and either change the outlet plug on your dryer to match or make a short adapter cord to go from the old 3 wire dryer to the 4 wire plug to use in your new 4 wire outlet...
I believe many new dryers are 4 wire now anyways but could be wrong..

I have 4 wires going to my spa panel and 3 coming out to my control panel...

 

[h22lude]

I suggest you do a search here on "gfci with 3 wire" or something to that effect there are at least a couple dozen threads on this... basically there is no way to do this and meet code, that said you can use a gfci with a three wire 220v oulet and it will work... your neutral and ground are connected in your main box and that is essentially what it is on a dedicated line until other 120v devices are being powered off of it in that circuit. chances are you have all four wires behind your dryer outlet... I would pull the cover and check, if you do the better way to go is to swap the outlet with a four conductor one and either change the outlet plug on your dryer to match or make a short adapter cord to go from the old 3 wire dryer to the 4 wire plug to use in your new 4 wire outlet...
I believe many new dryers are 4 wire now anyways but could be wrong..

I have 4 wires going to my spa panel and 3 coming out to my control panel...

Getting behind my dryer is very hard. I guess when the delivered my washer and dryer they couldn't just slide them both into the spot. After putting in the washer they didn't have enough room so they had to lift it over the washer and put it into place. As you can imagine, I don't feel like lifting it out lol So I think I will have to deal with the 3 wires.

I think I did enough searching last night lol I did find a ton of threads about using a dryer outlet but they didn't match my needs. They were either 4 prong outlets or they were 3 prong outlets but the brewery control needed 4 prong. I have 3 prong dryer outlet and need only 3 prong outlet. What is confusing me now is the dryer is hot, hot, neutral and my controller has hot, hot, ground.

From what it sounds like you are saying is the neutral wire goes to the box and is bonded to the ground there so in theory the neutral acts as a ground. Without being about to open the outlet, is there a way to test that?

After thinking about having it in my bathroom or my basement, I would rather have it in my bathroom for easy. I have water, drain, that is where I clean most of my stuff anyway. That is why I am trying to figure out how to use my dryer outlet.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if we forget about GFI for a second, if I plugged my controller (hot, hot, ground) into my dryer outlet (hot, hot, neutral) would my brewing system be safely grounded?

 

[Owly055]

Let's just agree at least that $300 isn't the actual cost of GFCI. It's $57 plus a couple of cord grips for the entry and exit of the SJOOW cord you already need to buy.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-50-Amp-BR-Type-Spa-Panel-BR50SPA/100206043?keyword=BR50SPA

Another thing we can probably all agree on is that people that get killed while messing with home built electrical devices usually don't post on the internet about it.

The choice to spend or not spend $57 is on the individual. My opinion is that it is a relatively small percentage of the overall cost of an electric brewery build and having GFCI certainly can't be viewed as a detriment in any way. On the other hand, chicks really dig a guy who lives on the edge and sticks it to the man so it's kind of a tough decision.

Show me a $57 GFCI for 220VAC I can install in my breaker box!!! It doesn't exist. I'm not going cobble something together incorporating a spa panel.......... which by the way is NOT $57 either. Let's get real here. It's close to $300 to do a proper installation with a 30 amp 220 volt GFCI in the breaker box.

Let's also get real here........... I challenge anybody to provide documentation of a single person who has ever been electrocuted while brewing with a properly grounded system........ You will NOT FIND A SINGLE INSTANCE...........

The 30 amp 220 volt GFCI craze is nothing but a solution in search of a problem....

H.W.

 

[bbohanon]

Show me a $57 GFCI for 220VAC I can install in my breaker box!!! It doesn't exist. I'm not going cobble something together incorporating a spa panel.......... which by the way is NOT $57 either. Let's get real here. It's close to $300 to do a proper installation with a 30 amp 220 volt GFCI in the breaker box.

Let's also get real here........... I challenge anybody to provide documentation of a single person who has ever been electrocuted while brewing with a properly grounded system........ You will NOT FIND A SINGLE INSTANCE...........

The 30 amp 220 volt GFCI craze is nothing but a solution in search of a problem....

H.W.

Maybe we should all relax...and have a homebrew.

 

[Owly055]

Getting behind my dryer is very hard. I guess when the delivered my washer and dryer they couldn't just slide them both into the spot. After putting in the washer they didn't have enough room so they had to lift it over the washer and put it into place. As you can imagine, I don't feel like lifting it out lol So I think I will have to deal with the 3 wires.

I think I did enough searching last night lol I did find a ton of threads about using a dryer outlet but they didn't match my needs. They were either 4 prong outlets or they were 3 prong outlets but the brewery control needed 4 prong. I have 3 prong dryer outlet and need only 3 prong outlet. What is confusing me now is the dryer is hot, hot, neutral and my controller has hot, hot, ground.

From what it sounds like you are saying is the neutral wire goes to the box and is bonded to the ground there so in theory the neutral acts as a ground. Without being about to open the outlet, is there a way to test that?

After thinking about having it in my bathroom or my basement, I would rather have it in my bathroom for easy. I have water, drain, that is where I clean most of my stuff anyway. That is why I am trying to figure out how to use my dryer outlet.

I guess what I'm getting at is, if we forget about GFI for a second, if I plugged my controller (hot, hot, ground) into my dryer outlet (hot, hot, neutral) would my brewing system be safely grounded?

It is quite safe to use a neutral for a ground if you don't need neutral..... That is to say if you are using ONLY 220 volt and no 120 volt.
It is NOT safe to use a ground for neutral because in that case you do not have sufficient capacity on the ground for both neutral and ground..... the wire gauge is not heavy enough.
Consider neutral and ground two separate circuits. The neutral circuit is a necessary circuit for 120 volt AC. The ground is a safety circuit of sufficient capacity to be the path of least resistance if something were to short out. If it is also carrying 120 volt AC it lacks that capacity. For this reason they run a ground and a neutral.

H.W.

 

[podz]

Maybe we should all relax...and have a homebrew.

That, and just move to Europe and get it over with!

 

[h22lude]

It is quite safe to use a neutral for a ground if you don't need neutral..... That is to say if you are using ONLY 220 volt and no 120 volt.
It is NOT safe to use a ground for neutral because in that case you do not have sufficient capacity on the ground for both neutral and ground..... the wire gauge is not heavy enough.
Consider neutral and ground two separate circuits. The neutral circuit is a necessary circuit for 120 volt AC. The ground is a safety circuit of sufficient capacity to be the path of least resistance if something were to short out. If it is also carrying 120 volt AC it lacks that capacity. For this reason they run a ground and a neutral.

H.W.

Just reading through the manual it says it requires a 240V, 120V and USB. 240V is for the element, 120V is for the pump and USB is for the controller. So to me, it looks like the 240V is only using 240V and not 120V/240V. As I understand it, if something did use 120V, power would come from one of the hot wires and through the neutral, right? Which is why they now make 4 wire plugs allowing 120V to come through and still have a ground.

With that said and from what you stated above (taking GFCI out of the equation), plugging the element directly into the dryer outlet would be grounded (through the neutral wire) and be safe to use.

I'm trying to wrap my head around putting a spa panel between teh 3 prong dryer outlet and the brew system. I just can't seem to understand the hot, hot, neutral going in and have hot, hot, ground going out. From P_Js diagram above, the yellow is neutral and green is ground. The two hots go into the bus and the neutral goes to the neutral/ground bus. Then coming out, he has the two hots going out of the breaker with the neutral and the ground is on the neutral/ground bus. In my case, I would use the two hots and the ground and not hook up any neutral wire going out. Is that correct?

I appreciate all the help you guys are giving me. I'm trying to get my system hooked up correctly, but I also want to learn how this stuff works as I want to get more self sufficient on how to fix something if it goes wrong in my house.

 

[podz]

h22lude, you are having such a hard time grasping the physics here that I really recommend that you just pay the electrician. You can not be ****ing with electricity if you are not a self-decisive person.

 

[h22lude]

h22lude, you are having such a hard time grasping the physics here that I really recommend that you just pay the electrician. You can not be ****ing with electricity if you are not a self-decisive person.

Not to be a jerk here but this doesn't really help with anything. You can understand something but still want to ask questions to be safe. "Self-decisive" has nothing to do with anything. If you understand it yourself and want to answer my previous question, that would be great but just saying I don't grasp things doesn't sit well with me. Did you go to school and your teacher said well if you don't understand how to find X in this equation just hire a mathematician?

 

[jeffmeh]

Yes, for hhn in and hhg out, wire the spa panel just like P-J's 3 in 4 out picture, except do not run the neutral out to your control panel. As stated, your neutral on the input side of the spa panel will act as ground to the main service panel, where neutral is bonded to ground. Not to code, but works. That's another reason to make it pluggable, as you should not be making changes to your permanent house wiring not to code.

 

[h22lude]

Yes, for hhn in and hhg out, wire the spa panel just like P-J's 3 in 4 out picture, except do not run the neutral out to your control panel. As stated, your neutral on the input side of the spa panel will act as ground to the main service panel, where neutral is bonded to ground. Not to code, but works. That's another reason to make it pluggable, as you should not be making changes to your permanent house wiring not to code.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

I agree, making this essentially into a plug will allow me to not have to change the wiring in my house as I don't want to go down that road.

The system has, I believe, 10' of wiring. The 3 prong plug has 6 feet (which I needed to buy anyway). So the only thing extra I need to buy is the $60 spa panel. It will be grounded and GFCI. Everyone is happy lol


Edit: Just received an email from the owner and this is what he said "To be clear, the 240VAC line powers the controller itself. It requires a 3 wire connection consisting of 2 hot wires and a ground. Using a GFI breaker precludes drawing 120 volts off one leg and neutral, as this is seen as a ground fault by GFI breakers. For that reason, there is also a 120VAC plug on the controller strictly for the pump. So your dryer outlet if it is truly using a neutral to derive 120volts off one hot leg and neutral will not work with a GFI breaker."

It seems like the controller only draws 240V and not 120V/240V so using my dryer outlet will be ok. Seems like he may be confused and thinks the neutral always pulls 120V from it even if nothing is drawing 120V in the circuit.

 

[Owly055]

Just reading through the manual it says it requires a 240V, 120V and USB. 240V is for the element, 120V is for the pump and USB is for the controller. So to me, it looks like the 240V is only using 240V and not 120V/240V. As I understand it, if something did use 120V, power would come from one of the hot wires and through the neutral, right? Which is why they now make 4 wire plugs allowing 120V to come through and still have a ground.

With that said and from what you stated above (taking GFCI out of the equation), plugging the element directly into the dryer outlet would be grounded (through the neutral wire) and be safe to use.

I'm trying to wrap my head around putting a spa panel between teh 3 prong dryer outlet and the brew system. I just can't seem to understand the hot, hot, neutral going in and have hot, hot, ground going out. From P_Js diagram above, the yellow is neutral and green is ground. The two hots go into the bus and the neutral goes to the neutral/ground bus. Then coming out, he has the two hots going out of the breaker with the neutral and the ground is on the neutral/ground bus. In my case, I would use the two hots and the ground and not hook up any neutral wire going out. Is that correct?

I appreciate all the help you guys are giving me. I'm trying to get my system hooked up correctly, but I also want to learn how this stuff works as I want to get more self sufficient on how to fix something if it goes wrong in my house.

The reason you can't wrap your head around it is that it is wrong. Wrong that is unless you have much heavier wire on your neutral / ground source than would usually be used. This is the way a sub panel is normally wired, but it is wired with quite heavy wire. Running a cord to the spa panel and a cord away from it is NOT code and NOT safe, and should NOT be done. Mount the spa panel to the wall with appropriate size wire as a sub panel.... which it is, and feed your plug in from it. DON'T use a cord if you are going to use a spa panel.

This whole exercise is as I have said before quite silly............ Do a good and proper job of wiring with a good ground.......... DON'T cobble up a cord with a GFCI in it. They are not meant to be used that way.

The choices that are to code are

1: Buy a GFCI breaker that fits in your panel for about $300
2: Install a wall mount Spa Panel with appropriate wire gauge according to instructions
3: Just wire up a cord with a good ground and forget GFCI

H.W.

 

[h22lude]

The reason you can't wrap your head around it is that it is wrong. Wrong that is unless you have much heavier wire on your neutral / ground source than would usually be used. This is the way a sub panel is normally wired, but it is wired with quite heavy wire. Running a cord to the spa panel and a cord away from it is NOT code and NOT safe, and should NOT be done. Mount the spa panel to the wall with appropriate size wire as a sub panel.... which it is, and feed your plug in from it. DON'T use a cord if you are going to use a spa panel.

Would you mind explaining this? This contradicts everything I have been reading. A 50A spa panel hooked up to a 30A breaker will only draw 30A before tripping, not 50A. For 30A circuit you would need 10 gauge wiring. Why would a spa panel need even larger gauge than that if it is on a 30A circuit?

The wiring from the element is 10 gauge and the 3 prong plug for the dryer is also 30 gauge.

Just trying to understand.

The choices that are to code are

1: Buy a GFCI breaker that fits in your panel for about $300
2: Install a wall mount Spa Panel with appropriate wire gauge according to instructions
3: Just wire up a cord with a good ground and forget GFCI

H.W.

$300? The 30A GFCI breakers I have seen are $100.

 

[Owly055]

Would you mind explaining this? This contradicts everything I have been reading. A 50A spa panel hooked up to a 30A breaker will only draw 30A before tripping, not 50A. For 30A circuit you would need 10 gauge wiring. Why would a spa panel need even larger gauge than that if it is on a 30A circuit?

The wiring from the element is 10 gauge and the 3 prong plug for the dryer is also 30 gauge.

Just trying to understand.




$300? The 30A GFCI breakers I have seen are $100.

Show me a $100 30A 220 volt GFCI

The reason this is wrong is that you are depending entirely on electronics for safety. Neutral is a current carrying lead........ Ground is a safety lead. They are never combined after the panel. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work......... it will....... But it is fundamentally wrong. This is a box designed as a sub panel. It is not intended to be wired to the main panel with 10GA wire.

Read the directions that come with the spa sub-panel.............. How do they say to mount and wire it? As a licensed electrician to wire it the way you are describing.....

If you can get a GFCI breaker for your panel for $100 as you claim........ Why would you mess around with the spa panel with a cord on each side of it?? It makes no sense at all to cobble something like this up. You increase the number of places for things to go wrong rather than making things safer when you cobble components together this way.

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

And the last thing you want is to be safer and have something that works just fine save your life if its "fundamentally wrong"......

Give me a break man your reaching.... going this route works just fine regardless of how it was Intended to be used...it makes no practical difference...
Your grasping at straws here to prove a point that many don't share.

 

[h22lude]

Show me a $100 30A 220 volt GFCI

The reason this is wrong is that you are depending entirely on electronics for safety. Neutral is a current carrying lead........ Ground is a safety lead. They are never combined after the panel. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work......... it will....... But it is fundamentally wrong. This is a box designed as a sub panel. It is not intended to be wired to the main panel with 10GA wire.

Read the directions that come with the spa sub-panel.............. How do they say to mount and wire it? As a licensed electrician to wire it the way you are describing.....

If you can get a GFCI breaker for your panel for $100 as you claim........ Why would you mess around with the spa panel with a cord on each side of it?? It makes no sense at all to cobble something like this up. You increase the number of places for things to go wrong rather than making things safer when you cobble components together this way.

H.W.

Here are 3 http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...I-Safety-Circuit/N-5yc1vZbm1eZ1z0rsu3Z1z11vjb

What do you mean it isn't supposed to be wired to the main panel? That is exactly how a spa panel works. Granted, it is probably better with 4 wires but it is still connected to the main via a breaker. The only difference is I have a plug between the main and the spa panel. Not sure I get what you are saying.

I don't know what I would be "cobbling". A wire goes from a breaker in the main into the spa panel then out to the spa control box. The way I would have it set up would be a wire goes from a breaker to an outlet. The plug in the outlet goes into the sape panel then out to the brew control box. It is like adding a switch in the middle of a circuit.

 

[augiedoggy]

I should add that a breaker in a main panel is connected and contact is made in the same way as a plug in an outlet as long as the properly sized cable and outlets are usedthere is no legitimate reason that this will not function correctly.

 

[Owly055]

And the last thing you want is to be safer and have something that works just fine save your life if its "fundamentally wrong"......

Give me a break man your reaching.... going this route works just fine regardless of how it was Intended to be used...it makes no practical difference...
Your grasping at straws here to prove a point that many don't share.

Frankly I do NOT consider it safer.......... You are cobbling one more component into a system.... which decreases reliability inherently, increases the places for things to go wrong. I'm NOT opposed to GFCI......... If you are going to use GFCI......... Spend the money and do it correctly. If cobbling this together in this way makes you feel safer..... go for it. I'm not sure why everybody is so afraid of using a correctly wired piece of equipment that they would cobble something like this up....... In the end just do it right. Mount the spa panel as a sub panel as it's intended, or don't use it at all. If you are do fearful that you have to have GFCI, at least do it right and mount the panel properly or install a GFCI breaker in your box and go from there. Don't create a cobbled up piece of junk.

H.W.

 

[h22lude]

Frankly I do NOT consider it safer.......... You are cobbling one more component into a system.... which decreases reliability inherently, increases the places for things to go wrong. I'm NOT opposed to GFCI......... If you are going to use GFCI......... Spend the money and do it correctly. If cobbling this together in this way makes you feel safer..... go for it. I'm not sure why everybody is so afraid of using a correctly wired piece of equipment that they would cobble something like this up....... In the end just do it right. Mount the spa panel as a sub panel as it's intended, or don't use it at all. If you are do fearful that you have to have GFCI, at least do it right and mount the panel properly or install a GFCI breaker in your box and go from there. Don't create a cobbled up piece of junk.

H.W.

I'm trying to understand what you are considering as cobbling.

If I had an actual hot tub. I have a 50A breaker in my main running wires to the spa panel. The spa panel then runs wires to the spa control box for the hot tub. Is that consider cobbling?

 

[augiedoggy]

Both of mine are wired as intended... the one powering my hot tub and the one mounted on the wall in my brew room. but if it wasn't mounted to the wall and it was plugged in instead of hard wired it wouldn't make it any less safe. if it did I'd like to hear an explanation from you how?

 

[augiedoggy]

I have to laugh when I read the cobbled up referencethe first thing that comes to mind are half of the homebrew control panels in this forum. the spa panel codes are for just that a spa panel installation they are not necessarily practical here as this is an out-of-the-box application. just like using a water heater element to brew beer. have you seen some of the cobbled up element enclosures?common sense goes a long way when you understand why you're doing something and how it works and what those codes were originally for.... without a little coddling and outside the box thinking these electric brew systems would not be around. just because the spa panel is not a sleek compact little plastic box mounted in line doesn't make it any less practical in this application

 

[h22lude]

Both of mine are wired as intended... the one powering my hot tub and the one mounted on the wall in my brew room. but if it wasn't mounted to the wall and it was plugged in instead of hard wired it wouldn't make it any less safe. if it did I'd like to hear an explanation from you how?

Yup!

You plug in your dryer. What if I wanted to hard wire it to the breaker panel? Obviously a bit extreme but it would do the same thing. The plug is there for convenience. Hard wire connects 3 or 4 wires from your panel to something. Put a plug in the middle and it still connects the same 3 or 4 wires to that something. Still safe. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have lamps, TVs, computers, microwaves, the list goes on and our homes would be empty.

 

[Owly055]

The irony here is that while talking "safety", people are cobbling things together. It's very easy to wire things correctly and safely. The idea that a cobbled up cord with a spa panel in the middle of it is somehow "safe" while a properly wired and properly grounded system without a GFCI is "dangerous" is beyond absurd.

Do it right...... or don't do it at all. I don't believe the $100 30 amp GFCI story.... The ones I've seen have ranged upwards of $200 at a minimum for a 30 map breaker. Nobody has bothered to send a link.......... Who in their right mind would cobble something up with a spa panel in the middle of a cord just to save $40, and claim it was "safer" than a proper well grounded system like we have been using for many years without problems??

What is so difficult about mounting the spa panel on the wall with proper gauge wire as it was intended to be? Do you mount a sub panel with #10 wire?

Do it right or don't do it at all!


H.W.

 

[h22lude]

The irony here is that while talking "safety", people are cobbling things together. It's very easy to wire things correctly and safely. The idea that a cobbled up cord with a spa panel in the middle of it is somehow "safe" while a properly wired and properly grounded system without a GFCI is "dangerous" is beyond absurd.

Do it right...... or don't do it at all. I don't believe the $100 30 amp GFCI story.... The ones I've seen have ranged upwards of $200 at a minimum for a 30 map breaker. Nobody has bothered to send a link.......... Who in their right mind would cobble something up with a spa panel in the middle of a cord just to save $40, and claim it was "safer" than a proper well grounded system like we have been using for many years without problems??

What is so difficult about mounting the spa panel on the wall with proper gauge wire as it was intended to be? Do you mount a sub panel with #10 wire?

Do it right or don't do it at all!


H.W.

Ok now I think you are just trying to be annoying.

I posted a link literally on the previous page two posts under yours.

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...bbce63&cm_mmc=CJ-_-7104034-_-11210757&cj=true

Please go back and read that post.

I really don't think you understand what you are saying. With the little research I have been doing I know you are just talking out your a$$. Yes it is absolutely ok to wire a sub panel with 10 gauge wire if the feeder breaker is 30A. If the feeder breaker was 40A you would use 8 gauge wire. If teh feeder breaker is 50A you would use 6 gauge wire. Please go read on how to install a spa panel (and sub panel). You will find you are completely wrong.

What is being "cobbled" together? The element's wires are 10 gauge. The wires going from the 30A breaker to the dryer outlet are 10 gauge. The plug I would buy has 10 gauge wire. The wire gauge is what it needs to be. Are you saying adding a plug between the breaker and the spa panel is "cobbling" because that doesn't make sense either.

I know I'm being an a$$ now but a few of us have showed you what we are talking about and have asked what you mean and all you keep saying is "why would you cobble things together" but you never tell us what is being cobbled together.

 

[h22lude]

Just so you don't think I'm making this up.

From one site - "Buy a subpanel larger than you need so you're ready for future electrical improvements. The three parts -- subpanel, feeder breaker, and cable -- should be compatible in capacity.
To figure sizes, add up the wattages of all the new electrical loads and add 20 percent to allow a safety margin. Then divide by 230 to find the amperage you need.
If the new service totals 4,000 watts, for example, add 20 percent (multiply by 1.2) to get 4,800; then divide 4,800 by 230 to get 20.9 amps. A subpanel supplying 30 amps of service will work.
To supply up to 5,700 watts of new power, install a 30-amp subpanel, a 30-amp feeder breaker, and a 10/3 feeder cable. To supply up to 7,500 watts, install a 40-amp subpanel, a 40-amp feeder breaker, and 8/3 cable.
Cable with 8-gauge wires may be difficult to find. If a home center does not carry it, call an electrical supply dealer."


From another site - "How many amps are you needing to the new subpanel. So lets say you need 50 amps. Well it’s not brain surgery, 50 amp sub panel, 50 amp wire, 50 amp breaker in existing main panel. See wasn’t that easy." Take that same answer with 30A like I would be using. 30A wiring to the sub (which if you didn't know, that would be #10).

Watch this - [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z0xyT4lPzw[/ame]

 

[Owly055]

Ok now I think you are just trying to be annoying.

I posted a link literally on the previous page two posts under yours.

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...bbce63&cm_mmc=CJ-_-7104034-_-11210757&cj=true

Please go back and read that post.

I really don't think you understand what you are saying. With the little research I have been doing I know you are just talking out your a$$. Yes it is absolutely ok to wire a sub panel with 10 gauge wire if the feeder breaker is 30A. If the feeder breaker was 40A you would use 8 gauge wire. If teh feeder breaker is 50A you would use 6 gauge wire. Please go read on how to install a spa panel (and sub panel). You will find you are completely wrong.

What is being "cobbled" together? The element's wires are 10 gauge. The wires going from the 30A breaker to the dryer outlet are 10 gauge. The plug I would buy has 10 gauge wire. The wire gauge is what it needs to be. Are you saying adding a plug between the breaker and the spa panel is "cobbling" because that doesn't make sense either.

I know I'm being an a$$ now but a few of us have showed you what we are talking about and have asked what you mean and all you keep saying is "why would you cobble things together" but you never tell us what is being cobbled together.

I missed that post...... With a $100 GFCI the spa panel becomes redundant...... I basically object to mounting a spa panel inline...... in the middle of a power cord. I do not agree with using 3 10 gauge conductors.........L1,L2,and Neutral on a 30 amp sub panel without at least having a good ground rod as some folks have suggested to be proper. For $100 (for a GFCI breaker), I wouldn't even consider a spa panel..... What's the point? The dollar figures I'd seen previously for a 30 amp GFCI breaker were far higher...

There have been many posts reiterating the same idea of mounting a spa panel in line...... so many that I have not read them all. The spa panel in line with a cord on each end is a poor solution....... a cobble job worthy of a 12 year old....... that is what I object to. It's simply not a good idea. The cost of doing this as compared to doing it right makes it a pointless exercise.

I apologize for breezing by this....... I clearly wasn't paying enough attention.

H.W.

 

[Bobby_M]

The irony here is that while talking "safety", people are cobbling things together. It's very easy to wire things correctly and safely. The idea that a cobbled up cord with a spa panel in the middle of it is somehow "safe" while a properly wired and properly grounded system without a GFCI is "dangerous" is beyond absurd.

Do it right...... or don't do it at all. I don't believe the $100 30 amp GFCI story.... The ones I've seen have ranged upwards of $200 at a minimum for a 30 map breaker. Nobody has bothered to send a link.......... Who in their right mind would cobble something up with a spa panel in the middle of a cord just to save $40, and claim it was "safer" than a proper well grounded system like we have been using for many years without problems??

What is so difficult about mounting the spa panel on the wall with proper gauge wire as it was intended to be? Do you mount a sub panel with #10 wire?

Do it right or don't do it at all!


H.W.

Why are you being so overtly argumentative? It's really tiring and not helping anyone. You made a big deal about how unnecessary GFCI is and one of your biggest reasons why one wouldn't use it is the obscene cost. One method given to make it cheaper (and also relatively portable) is to use a spa panel. Whether you hard wire it as a sub panel and mount it to the wall or use it as a portable device with SJ cord in and out, it doesn't change the price and it's not $300 in either configuration. You can't add the cost of wire because this is wire you'd use anyway if you didn't add the panel.

Second, even if you buy a 30a 240v GFCI breaker for your main panel, it's not $300 either. Sure, there are panels that have been discontinued and breakers are getting sparse and expensive. I have a Square D QO panel at home and the Square D Homeline panel at the shop. In both cases, I can get the GFCI breaker for $140 new or $70 used. You can google it or http://www.breaker-store.com/qob230gf.html

Why would I personally cobble together a piece of **** inline spa panel? I can build it once and bring it to either the shop or home and brew with GFCI without buying the breaker twice. I also was able to bring it with me when I moved rather than leave it all behind and buy again. It's really not much different than putting a 2 gang handy box on the end of an SJ cord at a work site so you have 4 outlets to plug into. The spa panel is sufficiently enclosed and with the right cord grips and even some rubber feet, there's no reason it's unsafe to use as a temporary install for once a month brewing. You can talk about how safe a non GFCI system is all day, that's fine. Please explain what is particularly unsafe with putting a spa panel inline with SJ cord. What exactly might happen? Even one example would be cool.

 

[Bobby_M]

just because the spa panel is not a sleek compact little plastic box mounted in line doesn't make it any less practical in this application

I always thought the spa panels were way oversized for no good reason other than the fact that I think the enclosures were just re-purposed sub panel boxes. Want to talk about cobbling.. somebody could take the GFCI breaker out along with the two bus rails, hack it up and mount it inside a 4" carlon weatherproof box with a cord grip on both ends. I wouldn't recommend it because it's seriously redneck. The code nazis would slay you. Just sayin.

 

[h22lude]

I missed that post...... With a $100 GFCI the spa panel becomes redundant...... I basically object to mounting a spa panel inline...... in the middle of a power cord. I do not agree with using 3 10 gauge conductors.........L1,L2,and Neutral on a 30 amp sub panel without at least having a good ground rod as some folks have suggested to be proper. For $100 (for a GFCI breaker), I wouldn't even consider a spa panel..... What's the point? The dollar figures I'd seen previously for a 30 amp GFCI breaker were far higher...

There have been many posts reiterating the same idea of mounting a spa panel in line...... so many that I have not read them all. The spa panel in line with a cord on each end is a poor solution....... a cobble job worthy of a 12 year old....... that is what I object to. It's simply not a good idea. The cost of doing this as compared to doing it right makes it a pointless exercise.

I apologize for breezing by this....... I clearly wasn't paying enough attention.

H.W.

Again you are not giving us reason why it is a cobble job. A typical spa panel is hard wired to the main panel via a feeder breaker. It is then hard wired to the hot tub control box. There has to be "cord" on both sides of the spa panel. By cord I assume you mean wire. I don't get what you are trying to say. If you mean a plug, there will only be one plug. The in side will have the plug and the out side will be hard wired to the hot tub control box (or in my case the brew system control box). Why is adding a plug to this cobbling?

I still don't think you understand how a spa panel is wired. You have a 30A breaker in your main panel. The #10 wire from there goes to the spa panel (and if you read my previous post and watched the video, #10 wire is the exact wire you use to wire a 30A breaker to spa panel). From the spa panel #10 wire is then wired to the hot tub control box. Every wire was #10.

What I plan on doing is the same exact thing except put in a 3 prong plug which handles #10 wire. The wire from the 30A breaker to the outler is #10. The outlet is rated to handle 30A 240V. The plug is rated to handle 30A 240V. From the plug there are #10 wire to the spa panel. From the spa panel there will be #10 wire to the control box. Please tell me what is cobble about that. Because it isn't mounted on the wall? Because there is a plug?

You keep bring up money for some odd reason. A 30A GFCI breaker is $20 more a spa panel but that isn't the reason I want to go the spa panel route. As Bobby said, it is now portable. If I put in a GFCI breaker, I am stuck in my house. With the spa panel, I can go anywhere as long as there is a 30A 240V outlet.

I agree with Bobby, I think you are arguing just to argue. You say the ideas people have are not warranted or bad but you never give reasons. If you could give good reasons as to why the inline spa panel is a bad idea, we would have listened.

 

[h22lude]

I always thought the spa panels were way oversized for no good reason other than the fact that I think the enclosures were just re-purposed sub panel boxes. Want to talk about cobbling.. somebody could take the GFCI breaker out along with the two bus rails, hack it up and mount it inside a 4" carlon weatherproof box with a cord grip on both ends. I wouldn't recommend it because it's seriously redneck. The code nazis would slay you. Just sayin.

Now that is a good example of cobbling. Adding a plug to a properly wired spa panel, that is not cobbling. Though I don't think we will ever find out why he thinks it is cobbling.

 

[augiedoggy]

In response to the comment above a 50a gfci breaker with a spa panel is $60..... A 50 or 30a gfci breaker alone at the same store is 100 bucks..... For me it was a no brainer since I like having the spa panel mounted in the brew room with a master kill switch...
And as far as a three wire gfci it doesn't matter....since the neutral has nothing else wired to it there is no difference between it and a ground... Its plenty heavy enough to carry a ground since nothing is using that wire for for anything but a ground (no 120v loads on it the way I understand) and its the same gauge as a ground would normally be...considering the size of the hot wires and amps being supplied its still matched to the system as far as I understand.

 

[augiedoggy]

I missed that post...... With a $100 GFCI the spa panel becomes redundant...... I basically object to mounting a spa panel inline...... in the middle of a power cord. I do not agree with using 3 10 gauge conductors.........L1,L2,and Neutral on a 30 amp sub panel without at least having a good ground rod as some folks have suggested to be proper. For $100 (for a GFCI breaker), I wouldn't even consider a spa panel..... What's the point? The dollar figures I'd seen previously for a 30 amp GFCI breaker were far higher...

There have been many posts reiterating the same idea of mounting a spa panel in line...... so many that I have not read them all. The spa panel in line with a cord on each end is a poor solution....... a cobble job worthy of a 12 year old....... that is what I object to. It's simply not a good idea. The cost of doing this as compared to doing it right makes it a pointless exercise.

I apologize for breezing by this....... I clearly wasn't paying enough attention.

H.W.

The only difference between these and a spa panel with sjoow cords wired to it are cosmetic, sleek compact design vs bulky metal box...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24140-002-T...850?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417e46da42


http://www.ebay.com/itm/GFCI-In-Lin...112?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b60e6e58


http://www.ebay.com/itm/HUBBELL-WIR...650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2551ffaa

And this one would be what you may consider "cobbled together" since it built by a member here and not commercially made and it resembles a spa panel box in size...


http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRU-matic-2...uit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item3393c74d47

 

[h22lude]

So I got the brew system in today. Went to HD to get the spa panel and the 3 prong plug. Wired it all up. Took about 30 minutes. Hardest part was cutting the rubber without cutting the wires and getting it off nicely.

Using PJs diagram, is this correct? Remember, I have 3 wires going in and 3 going out. The left grey wires are the power in (the middle one is the neutral, in this case the ground). The right group (black, white and green) is the power going to the brew system. Maybe hard to see what I did so I'll explain.

The two outside grey wires are going to the two hot terminals. The middle grey wire is going to the neutral terminal under the neutral bus. The neutral bus has a wire (which I just used extra wire from my 3 prong cable) going to the ground bus to the right. The white curly wire came with the spa panel which I left. The black and white wires went to the two hot terminals on the breaker. The green neutral wire went to the ground bus. Using PJs diagram, since I don't have neutral, I left out the yellow wire going from the breaker. How does this look to everyone? Hopefully PJ has been lurking and can comment too. Oh and the dryer plug came with that metal holder to stop the wire from being plugged. I figured I would use it.

 

[h22lude]

A few things I noticed.

1) The clamp is inside out. I am going to change that.
2) I need a clamp for the red out wires.
3) This is a question, do I need to use the bonding strap? I figured no but wanted to make sure. I would think since the neutral/ground from the dryer outlet is connected to the neutral bus, the neutral bus is connected to the ground bus, then the ground from the brew system is connected to that; everything would be grounded. Am I wrong?

 

[h22lude]

Deleted.

 

[P-J]

Another post.

I just saw this PJ diagram. Is this what I should do instead? Basically connects the two hots from the outlet to the breaker then to the brew system. The neutral/ground is connected to the ground bus and then out to the brew system.
...

That is not my diagram. A dryer outlet is hot - hot & neutral ... not hot - hot - ground.

 

[reynolds5520]

What you did is correct.

Yes, add a clamp to your other cable.

I can't tell from the picture whether the ground bus is electrically connected to the enclosure. If no, then you do want to use the bonding strap to ground the enclosure. Otherwise, no need.

 

[reynolds5520]

One more detail, put a cover on that large opening on the top of the panel so nothing can fall or splash in. If it didn't come with one, you should be able to find one - it's a standard part.

 

[h22lude]

That is not my diagram. A dryer outlet is hot - hot & neutral ... not hot - hot - ground.

I'm sorry I thought I saw you post it in a thread a while ago. It looks like something you would make but then someone changed it. I'm going to delete that diagram as I don't think it is correct.

Do you have any input on my wiring? Trying to get HHN to HHG with spa panel correctly before plugging it in. Thanks

What you did is correct.

Yes, add a clamp to your other cable.

I can't tell from the picture whether the ground bus is electrically connected to the enclosure. If no, then you do want to use the bonding strap to ground the enclosure. Otherwise, no need.

Great, thanks. It was so hard finding info on HHN to HHG spa panel. All of it was either HHNG to HHNG or HHN to HHNG.

The ground is attached to the panel. The bus itself is on the panel and the metal screws holding it done also make contact with both. I will doubt check though.

One more detail, put a cover on that large opening on the top of the panel so nothing can fall or splash in. If it didn't come with one, you should be able to find one - it's a standard part.

Yes I do have a cover. I tried before and the screws weren't going in and got frustrated so I left it until I'm finished lol

 

[P-J]

I'm sorry I thought I saw you post it in a thread a while ago. It looks like something you would make but then someone changed it. I'm going to delete that diagram as I don't think it is correct.

Do you have any input on my wiring? Trying to get HHN to HHG with spa panel correctly before plugging it in. Thanks

Great, thanks. It was so hard finding info on HHN to HHG spa panel. All of it was either HHNG to HHNG or HHN to HHNG.

The ground is attached to the panel. The bus itself is on the panel and the metal screws holding it done also make contact with both. I will doubt check though.

Yes I do have a cover. I tried before and the screws weren't going in and got frustrated so I left it until I'm finished lol

h22lude,

The dagram best suited for a dryer outlet is this one:

(Note: A dryer outlet is hot-hot & neutral)

Neutral feeds into the Spa Panel and ground is independently developed within the panel. Anyway, it's my way of thinking through a complex electrical issue.

Hey, I spent 60 years studying and working with electical components and devices and as a Service Manager for years in New York City. (Blame that one on IBM Corp. NO.!!! They were great for me and MY life.!!) I can easily say that as I'm retarded now. (?? Hmmm.. Retired ????)

Wishing you the very best. If I can help you in your mission, Please let me know.

P-J

EDIT:
Another thought for you: If you do not need the neutral in your setup just don't wire it on the output side of the Spa Panel. No problem.