Cider Yeast Selection

[bmd2k1]

Nothing gelatin can't fix.

Is this simple grocery store gelatin? How much do ya add per gal?

 

[paneubert]

Is this simple grocery store gelatin? How much do ya add per gal?

Yes, and I often toss an entire packet (I think it is 5 or 7 grams?) in a gallon. But many people use a packet per 5 gallons.

 

[z-bob]

Yes, and I often toss an entire packet (I think it is 5 or 7 grams?) in a gallon. But many people use a packet per 5 gallons.

Whoa, that's a lot! I thought 1/2 teaspoon was the right amount for 5 gallons.

 

[dmtaylor]

Is this simple grocery store gelatin? How much do ya add per gal?

Knox brand unflavored gelatin. About one pack per 5 gallons, or probably like 1/4 teaspoon per gallon, something like that. Dissolve in about 3 oz hot water -- I just microwave the water, then stir in the gelatin. Then let cool, and add it in. About 48 hours later, cider is clear as crystal in most cases.

 

[paneubert]

Whoa, that's a lot! I thought 1/2 teaspoon was the right amount for 5 gallons.

Yeah, it is most certainly more than I need to put in. But I don't feel like trying to keep an open packet around. It won't harm the beverage to add "a lot" since it is flavorless (and hypothetically odorless....but I think it smells like crap). It will settle out no matter how much you add (up to some ridiculous level where it actually turned your drink to actual jello).

 

[dmtaylor]

Unlike some other situations, I've actually had better success with the "more is better" approach, using about a whole tablespoon per 5 gallons versus just 1/2 teaspoon quoted by some. It doesn't hurt anything. Just use a whole pack unless you're making really small batches.

 

[bmd2k1]

Anyone try WLP041?

...the 51 is supposedly same as Wyeast1272 which I really like.

 

[paneubert]

Only 17 orders needed to get 773 out of the vault. Let's do this people....go order a vial or two.

 

[bmd2k1]

Only 17 orders needed to get 773 out of the vault. Let's do this people....go order a vial or two.

Wow...was 26 last nite! I'm Already in [emoji111]

 

[paneubert]

Someone on Reddit started the conversation up again and I think that is where the most recent few orders have come from. Hopefully with the low numbers needed, more people will jump in since the end is in sight.

 

[Maylar]

Let's hope so. Though mine will have to sit in a fridge until next year.

 

[johnnyseko]

Cool! I swear I'm done buying yeast for quite a while after this....well I did put in for the Nordic blend too. My 5 single gallons of different yeasts are all going strong now.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Anyone try WLP041?

...the 51 is supposedly same as Wyeast1272 which I really like.

WLP041 is one of CvilleKevin's favourites. Maybe not surprising as he likes his British ale yeast for cider and WLP041 is a cousin of Whitbread B/Fuller's.

If you like the BRY-97 family like WLP051 and 1272, you might like to try the closely related WLP515 next time it comes out of the Vault. Or harvest it from a bottle of de Koninck. Or indeed dry BRY-97 from Danstar/Lallemand.

 

[bmd2k1]

775...not a fan [emoji87][emoji86][emoji85]

 

[paneubert]

775...not a fan [emoji87][emoji86][emoji85]

Honestly my 1 gallon test batch tastes like plastic right now. Not quite done fermenting yet, but not a good sign.

 

[johnnyseko]

Honestly my 1 gallon test batch tastes like plastic right now. Not quite done fermenting yet, but not a good sign.

I have some stored away, bottled...hoping for the best

 

[MarkKF]

Let's hope so. Though mine will have to sit in a fridge until next year.

Me too unless Bashista does a spring pressing. They did last year and it became my Saison Cider.

 

[ten80]

Just tried two more yeasts with a blend of 80% dessert or eating apples and 20% red crabapples (for acid and tannin balance). The juice was about 1.039, so pretty low gravity and perhaps not the best base for a cider, but the apples were free. I did not add any nutrients and fermented around 46-50F, frequently swirling the carboys to rouse the yeast. 1 pack of rehydrated yeast was added to each 5 gallon carboy 48 hrs after adding 50 ppm sulfide (metabisulfite; juice pH ~3.5).

R4600 wine yeast - 1.047 to 1.000 in 3 months (0.007 gravity points from chaptelization with sugar), cider is thin and watery (probably due to mostly desert apples). Slight astringency (perhaps from tannins) with nice pear-like esters in the finish. No H2S or other off flavors. I think this has potential with a better base blend of juice.

Q23 wine yeast - 1.050 to 1.000 in 3 months (0.011 gravity points from chaptelization with sugar). Nice crisp apple notes with light white wine-like esters. Cider is not thin, likely to due high glycerol production from the yeast. Finish is very pleasant and not overly-dry. I used the same juice as used in the R4600 test described above. I think I will champagne condition some of this cider as Q23 is known to work well with aging on lees and bottle conditioning.

Also, I'm not certain that I like using S-04 anymore after yet another batch of very tart graff produced using this yeast. I suspect that S-04 may be producing some lactic-like organic acids that contribute to excessive perception of "tartness" in the graff. This has been suggested by many users in a thread in the beer forum. I need to conduct more tests to confirm my suspicions.....

 

[paneubert]

I think I am still a few days from final/stable gravity on both of these, but I am going to make a prediction based on tasting my refractometer samples (so me tasting literally a few drops).

These are both 1 gallon batches using the same base juice. Started within 24 hours of each other. Same location/temperature.

775 = Tastes like plastic.
"1/25/18 - Took a refractometer reading and based on OG, corrected reading puts this at 5.8 °P, which is 1.011. Tastes a little plastic’ey. Hope it doesn’t have the dreaded “bandaid” flavor.
1/29/18 - Refractometer at 5.3 °P, which is a drop of .5 °P from 4 days ago. Corrected value is 2.33 °P, 1.009. Still tastes a little funny. Don’t know if I would say plastic’ey, but still weird."

002 = Good, maybe honey notes?
"1/25/18 - Took a refractometer reading and based on OG, corrected reading puts this at 7.9 °P, which is 1.018. The few drops I tried tasted almost like honey, which is interesting.
1/29/18 - Refractometer at 6.8 °P, which is a drop of 1.1 from 4 days ago. Corrected value is 3.61 °P, 1.014 gravity. Still tastes like honey. I think 002 might have had a reason for being the winner of the AHA Cider Yeast Comparison."

I will probably update this comment with more notes and not make a new one when I find they each have settled at a final gravity.

 

[Drewed]

Yes, and I often toss an entire packet (I think it is 5 or 7 grams?) in a gallon. But many people use a packet per 5 gallons.

So you just sprinkle the pack on top? You don't mix with warm water or anything?

 

[bmd2k1]

For dry yeast...I just sprinkle on top - no rehydration required.

 

[paneubert]

For dry yeast...I just sprinkle on top - no rehydration required.

They are talking about gelatin, not yeast! Haha. We have a couple conversations going here at the same time I think. For the gelatin, I microwave it in about a cup of water to dissolve it. I would not just sprinkle. Would be afraid it would not work as well.

 

[jinjorge]

Here are my three ciders:
- I've tried Red Star Montrachet on my first cider - not a fan
- Yeast cake from WLP 001 - It was ok. Hoppy because the beer it came from was hoppy
- US-05 - I like it.

Next cider is Pineapple Apple cider - thinking about using Danstar Belle Saison with it. Thoughts?

 

[ten80]

paneubert, perhaps wait till full attenuation and for the yeast to drop out fully before passing final judgement. I've found that a cider's taste can change drastically even one racking off the yeast cake as yeast drops out and H2S and other flavors offgass.

 

[paneubert]

paneubert, perhaps wait till full attenuation and for the yeast to drop out fully before passing final judgement. I've found that a cider's taste can change drastically even one racking off the yeast cake as yeast drops out and H2S and other flavors offgass.

Yep, I am anxiously waiting for the gravity to settle down to something constant over a few days. Both of these are REALLY flocculant, so they have both been really clear most of the fermentation time. I don't think there is much yeast suspended, but I am sure there is some. I am doubting 775 will taste any better as it dries out, and I can only hope 002 still tastes good as it dries.

 

[bmd2k1]

Yep, I am anxiously waiting for the gravity to settle down to something constant over a few days. Both of these are REALLY flocculant, so they have both been really clear most of the fermentation time. I don't think there is much yeast suspended, but I am sure there is some. I am doubting 775 will taste any better as it dries out, and I can only hope 002 still tastes good as it dries.

Looking forward to your wlp002 report!

 

[ten80]

Pineapple Apple cider[/URL] - thinking about using Danstar Belle Saison with it. Thoughts?

I've tried T-58 which is supposedly the same strain as 3711 French Saison and Belle Saison and the result was very sulfury, but eventually became drinkable after some venting with CO2 and dropping in a piece of copper pipe for 2 days. Assuming Belle Saison is the same as T-58, then I would add a little yeast nutrient to avoid sulfurous odors from nutrient limitation.

Belle saison is known for producing a high level of glycerol during fermentation which adds to mouth feel. This would be beneficial in cider.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've tried T-58 which is supposedly the same strain as 3711 French Saison and Belle Saison and the result was very sulfury, but eventually became drinkable after some venting with CO2 and dropping in a piece of copper pipe for 2 days. Assuming Belle Saison is the same as T-58, then I would add a little yeast nutrient to avoid sulfurous odors from nutrient limitation.

Belle saison is known for producing a high level of glycerol during fermentation which adds to mouth feel. This would be beneficial in cider.

I don't believe T-58 is the same as Belle or 3711 (but these latter two are indeed the same).

 

[bmd2k1]

Can anyone provide feedback on SafCider vs Brewers Best Cider House Select?

 

[jinjorge]

I've tried T-58 which is supposedly the same strain as 3711 French Saison and Belle Saison and the result was very sulfury, but eventually became drinkable after some venting with CO2 and dropping in a piece of copper pipe for 2 days. Assuming Belle Saison is the same as T-58, then I would add a little yeast nutrient to avoid sulfurous odors from nutrient limitation.

Belle saison is known for producing a high level of glycerol during fermentation which adds to mouth feel. This would be beneficial in cider.

@ten80 Thanks for the feedback.

Made this Feb 10th. Didn't add the yeast nutrient. Had it in a 5 gallon carboy and this thing took off a couple days after making it. Had to add a blowoff, as it was going off. First time I've had to hook a blow off for a Cider. Kept actively bubbling for about a week. The bubbling pace has slowed down, though it's still bubbling today

 

[MarkKF]

Can anyone provide feedback on SafCider vs Brewers Best Cider House Select?

I’ve used Brewers best 5-6 times and Safcider once. Very similar. Finishes 1.000 no off flavors and retains some apple flavor. I’d still love to know what the Brewers best is, who grows it?

 

[bmd2k1]

I’ve used Brewers best 5-6 times and Safcider once. Very similar. Finishes 1.000 no off flavors and retains some apple flavor. I’d still love to know what the Brewers best is, who grows it?

So if you had to pick your fav yeast...that you'd use for the ultimate cider challenge...what would it be? [emoji111]

 

[MarkKF]

Belle Saison.

 

[bmd2k1]

Belle Saison.

How does it compare/differ from S04?

Dry or liquid version of Belle?

 

[MarkKF]

Dry. It’s very clean, no sulfur and if it’s warm it likes it. S-04 and Notty can produce sulfur and off flavors if it’s too warm.

Danstar dry yeast packet.

 

[Jhoss]

Glad to see the mentions of 1272. I've found it to be the most innocuous, invisible, non-yeasty stuff when it comes to ales.

 

[ten80]

I don't believe T-58 is the same as Belle or 3711 (but these latter two are indeed the same).

You are right, T-58 is supposedly Belgian Saison (3747) and BE-134 is French Saison (3711). Thanks for catching this.

EDIT: Corrected swapped yeast countries. oops.

 

[johnnyseko]

My 5 single gallons of different yeasts are all going strong now.View attachment 555103

So these are all bottled finally. All finished @1.000, Cotes was lowest .997 and was the clearest I've ever seen - yeast dropped out nice and compact. Everything tasted pretty good, retaining apple flavor. I added 1.2oz sugar per gallon at bottling and now will wait until the end of month for chilling and then taste testing.

I did mess up a bit though.....I was slightly rushed on bottling day and completely forgot to save the yeast from the 'wild' ferment. Bummed, I pressed and blended my own apples with intent on saving the yeast if the result was good. Of course, it tasted great.

I'll update the final results once we line them up and taste, probably April.

 

[ten80]

S-04 and Notty can produce sulfur and off flavors if it’s too warm.

And sometimes when cold-fermented (48-52F) as well with higher-gravity juice, in my experience. I've had mixed experience with S-04.

I bottled my 1-gal Red Star Montrachet yeast test last night. A rather clean and boring profile compared to Q23 and R4600. A little apple flavor with some white wine-like esters, but nothing very fruity. Not bad, just not great. I added cinnamon and nutmeg tincture to add some flavor.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You are right, T-58 is supposedly French Saison (3747) and BE-134 is Belgian Saison (3711). Thanks for catching this.

Huh? Wyeast 3711 is French Saison and Belgian Saison is 3724.

But to be honest, the spec for T-58 doesn't look very saison-like - 70% attenuation and recommended temperature of 15-20C (59-68F). It may be POF+ but otherwise it looks like a fairly regular ale yeast. As of 2008 it was the de Struise house yeast (plus whatever falls into their open fermenters...), they give their beer 4-5 days at 75F open followed by 2 weeks at 62F closed, T-58 is renewed every 5 generations.

Be-134 looks far more saison-like - a POF+ diastaticus with 90% attenuation and a temp range of 18-28C (64-82F). Might also work for a Boddington's clone...