Brü's Views with John Wible | On The Hazy Beer Controversy

[clone63]

I think you might have missed the point. After all, their brewery is called "hoof hearted" (say it out loud a few times to get the joke).

I don't think they take themselves very seriously.

OH. I get it now. Sad it took me that long. UUuuhg. Doesn't change my opinion, it could at least look like it was made by a company, and not 2 frat guys. Oh well, the more I keep seeing it, the more I want it. Will be a few years before any fad gets to Canada....

 

[sdenue57]

The BN Just got done saying how terrible they are. Jamil has the Same opinion on Twitter.

And where are they located? West Coast I believe? I bet the Germans said the same thing about those crazy Belgians and their awful beers! It's funny how most of the people who don't like these beers are either on the West Coast, or old. "Those damn kids and their hazy beer!!" I believe if you check BA, the top 50 beers list is dominated by these new IPAs. I just returned from a trip to VT on Thursday with a bounty of these. Hill Farmstead has been named the best brewery in the world for the past 2 years. Their IPAs are amazing!! Too bad you West Coast people don't have a chance to try them, since they only do growlers of their hoppy beers. I guess if it isn't clear, and it doesn't strip the enamel off your teeth, it can't be good beer! BTW, that Konkey Dong stuff just does look gross. None of the good NE IPAs look like that.

 

[WesM63]

I'm with many others, I don't really care what it looks like, as long as it tastes good. Personally, I do enjoy the soft mouthfeel of the NE IPA's which is different from the ultra bitter and dry West Coast style IPA.

The best beer I've ever brewed looked horrible but tasted phenomenal. I'm still not sure how it turned out so horrible looking. (Only 8oz of Flaked Oats and WLP001)

https://www.instagram.com/p/7jXlUbGjp0/

I can't speak for Jamill, but I think his comment was directed toward breweries that brew/ferment incorrectly to make their beer look ultra hazy, his comment was specifically "...this overly yeasty crap is offensive"

 

[sdenue57]

And I find they don't actually taste that good. The protein/yeast/hop haze mutes the flavor.

And which of these beers have you tried? Have you actually had any fresh beers from these breweries? Or are you basing it on beers you've had from other breweries that are trying to brew to this "style" because it's so popular now? While the west cost reinvented the IPA style in this country, as the song from your era stated, "The times they are a'changing". Don't confuse what you call muted with what others call a softer bitterness. Not every beer has to be so bitter that you can't taste anything after 2 beers. If you don't like it, that's fine. Don't drink it. Simple as that! I understand you're a beloved figure in the homebrew universe, but every dog has it's day. And the super bitter West Coast IPA is no longer the only game in town. People are looking for flavor. So before anybody can pass judgement, they should actually go to these breweries and taste what they have fresh.

 

[tagz]

And where are they located? West Coast I believe? I bet the Germans said the same thing about those crazy Belgians and their awful beers! It's funny how most of the people who don't like these beers are either on the West Coast, or old. "Those damn kids and their hazy beer!!" I believe if you check BA, the top 50 beers list is dominated by these new IPAs. I just returned from a trip to VT on Thursday with a bounty of these. Hill Farmstead has been named the best brewery in the world for the past 2 years. Their IPAs are amazing!! Too bad you West Coast people don't have a chance to try them, since they only do growlers of their hoppy beers. I guess if it isn't clear, and it doesn't strip the enamel off your teeth, it can't be good beer! BTW, that Konkey Dong stuff just does look gross. None of the good NE IPAs look like that.

That's just silly. I'm an east coaster and I think they look unappetizing.

 

[broadbill]

The BN Just got done saying how terrible they are. Jamil has the Same opinion on Twitter.

Well, the BN are a bunch of stoner podcasters who live on the West Coast and are snobby about their own beers, and the other is the guy who wrote a book titled "Brewing Classic Styles".

No wonder they don't think much of anything that happens outside of CA and OR.

Edit to Add: It is ironic that Jamil opened a brewery called Heretic brewery with the aim of brewing "out of the box" beers. I guess it makes sense that he slams NEIPA...his "heretical" beers include a Red IPA, a Double IPA, a Porter and a Hazelnut Porter....whoa! Talk about a crazy lineup there! lol...

 

[broadbill]

That's just silly. I'm an east coaster and I think they look unappetizing.

His point wasn't that only east coasters can appreciate the style, its that there is ALWAYS resistance to change and something new. Centuries ago is was belgians, years ago it was West Coast IPAs, today it is NE IPA.

So it goes.

 

[tagz]

His point, one reiterated by a couple of other posters, is that the backlash is only coming from west coasters who are worried that the west coast style IPA is being threatened. It's silly to say that someone couldn't legitimately object to this new style.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459860914.645183.jpg

Is this not appealing to some people???

 

[GrogNerd]

View attachment 348983

Is this not appealing to some people???

somebody else already drinking it?

yes. not appealing

 

[NervousDad]

View attachment 348983

Is this not appealing to some people???

Honestly, no it's not appealing. It's looks like a poorly made beer. But it's not the "haze" that makes me feel that way. Its the lack of head and color.

 

[cegan09]

This whole debate is hilarious. Writing off a whole "category" of beers because of looks. You know what? good. It just means more for me.

 

[NervousDad]

And where are they located? West Coast I believe? I bet the Germans said the same thing about those crazy Belgians and their awful beers! It's funny how most of the people who don't like these beers are either on the West Coast, or old. "Those damn kids and their hazy beer!!" I believe if you check BA, the top 50 beers list is dominated by these new IPAs. I just returned from a trip to VT on Thursday with a bounty of these. Hill Farmstead has been named the best brewery in the world for the past 2 years. Their IPAs are amazing!! Too bad you West Coast people don't have a chance to try them, since they only do growlers of their hoppy beers. I guess if it isn't clear, and it doesn't strip the enamel off your teeth, it can't be good beer! BTW, that Konkey Dong stuff just does look gross. None of the good NE IPAs look like that.

Who rated them best brewery in the world? What is their distribution that they can claim that?

All of these "best of" lists are just ridiculous. I'm going to start a list right now....

This whole debate is hilarious. Writing off a whole "category" of beers because of looks. You know what? good. It just means more for me.

Yes people taste with their eyes. It's unappealing. You can have that beer. And when the next hop shortage hits (and it will) we'll see a shake out that will make 1995 look like child's play. They won't be able to hide all of this "flavors" anymore.

 

[blizz81]

Beer: Srs Bsns

 

[brewerJase]

When I go to a nice restaurant I expect a nice presentation as well as good tasting food. I feel the same way about beer. Obviously taste comes first. A beautiful beer that tastes like trash isn't worth a thing. But a great tasting beer that looks like trash dosnt have that "gimmy, gimmy, gimmy" factor. Now a beer that tastes great and looks great as well is what I feel I should get if I'm shelling out my cash for it.
But that's just me.

 

[Braufessor]

Who rated them best brewery in the world? What is their distribution that they can claim that?

All of these "best of" lists are just ridiculous. I'm going to start a list right now....

Hill Farmstead does turn out some phenomenal beers..... Their Saisons are actually probably better than their IPA's or hoppy beers.

They are among the best of the best for sure.

That said, I agree that the "best of" lists are ridiculous. And, their "best in the world" title is based off of ratings on beer advocate or rate beer.... or the like. A HUGE aspect of that simply comes down to a few things:
*Unless it is IPA's, RIS's, Barrel aged or special release...... it does not get rated very highly.
*If it is easy to get - it doesn't get rated as highly as if it is hard to get.
*People who "rate" these beers generally don't take anything into consideration other than their love for a style of beer. The worlds best pilsner will get rated lower than a decent IPA every time.

Unless beers are getting judged blind, the hype factor always ways in and skews the outcome.

But, yeah - Hill Farmstead is really great. I don't like Saisons that much..... but, I could drink theirs all day, every day.

 

[cegan09]

Who rated them best brewery in the world? What is their distribution that they can claim that?

All of these "best of" lists are just ridiculous. I'm going to start a list right now....




Yes people taste with their eyes. It's unappealing. You can have that beer. And when the next hop shortage hits (and it will) we'll see a shake out that will make 1995 look like child's play. They won't be able to hide all of this "flavors" anymore.

I agree with you that the best of lists are just dumb. I also agree that the limited supply of these beers is boosting the hype. However they are good.

The "unappealing" thing just amuses me. Do you avoid other styles that we've accepted should be cloudy or hazy? If not why is it ok for them and not these? Allagash fought for years to get people to try their white, which got the same "ew it's cloudy" response, now that beer is what funds their operation.

The whole argument just has me envisioning a bunch of old guys yelling to get off their lawns.

 

[NervousDad]

Hill Farmstead does turn out some phenomenal beers..... Their Saisons are actually probably better than their IPA's or hoppy beers.

They are among the best of the best for sure.

That said, I agree that the "best of" lists are ridiculous. And, their "best in the world" title is based off of ratings on beer advocate or rate beer.... or the like. A HUGE aspect of that simply comes down to a few things:
*Unless it is IPA's, RIS's, Barrel aged or special release...... it does not get rated very highly.
*If it is easy to get - it doesn't get rated as highly as if it is hard to get.
*People who "rate" these beers generally don't take anything into consideration other than their love for a style of beer. The worlds best pilsner will get rated lower than a decent IPA every time.

Unless beers are getting judged blind, the hype factor always ways in and skews the outcome.

But, yeah - Hill Farmstead is really great. I don't like Saisons that much..... but, I could drink theirs all day, every day.

I've had a few of their beers and they were good. I'm not knocking them.

I just find it absurd when I see "top beer" list. As we can see from this thread taste is subjective I used to be one of the people that had to have ever "best" beer ever made. It's was a lot of disappointment and wasted money.

Just like a lot of these beers probably taste good to many. Tired hands puts out a lot of amazing beers.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Honestly, no it's not appealing. It's looks like a poorly made beer. But it's not the "haze" that makes me feel that way. Its the lack of head and color.

This is just a sample pour, after I took a sip, it had a head. And color? I didn't realize pilsners were horrible beers

 

[Helly]

Going to check out the article now, just read the thread. That donkey kong beer does not look appealing at all. However the Julius looks amazing.

I had a couple cans of Tired Hands Pineal IPA recently and I thought it was great. Hoppy and smooth without being bitter. I'm hooked, I want more of these kinds of beers and I will try to brew a few myself this spring/summer. They're not better than West Coast IPA's, just different and, in my opinion, just as great in their own right.

 

[NervousDad]

So you took a picture of a Pilsner and tried to get me to say it was an unappealing IPA?? I got news if that's a Pilsner that is far worse. No Pilsner should ever be cloudy. And should have a long lasting head.

Appearance of a Pilsner.

Straw to light gold, brilliant to very clear, with a creamy, long-lasting white head.

If your referencing simply the color I've never seen a Pilsner look like that. There is a slight brown hue to it.

 

[GrogNerd]

This is just a sample pour, after I took a sip, it had a head. And color? I didn't realize pilsners were horrible beers

oh, well, why didn't you say it was a pilsner?

yes, it is a horrible pilsner, because they're supposed to be brilliant to very clear

may taste good, but serious dings on style for appearance

 

[ThatVideoKid]

So you took a picture of a Pilsner and tried to get me to say it was an unappealing IPA?? I got news if that's a Pilsner that is far worse. No lager should ever be cloudy.

Appearance of a Pilsner.

Straw to light gold, brilliant to very clear, with a creamy, long-lasting white head.

If your referencing simply the color I've never seen a Pilsner look like that. There is a sligh brown hue to it.

No I mean if you think a lack of color is unappealing, what do you think of pilsners?

There are even fantastic west coast style IPAs that are light in color, I see no problem with that.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Going to check out the article now, just read the thread. That donkey kong beer does not look appealing at all. However the Julius looks amazing.

I had a couple cans of Tired Hands Pineal IPA recently and I thought it was great. Hoppy and smooth without being bitter. I'm hooked, I want more of these kinds of beers and I will try to brew a few myself this spring/summer. They're not better than West Coast IPA's, just different and, in my opinion, just as great in their own right.

I agree completely, they're just a different style.

hefeweizens and kristalweizens: Are they different? Yes. Both good? Yes.

 

[broadbill]

This whole debate is hilarious. Writing off a whole "category" of beers because of looks. You know what? good. It just means more for me.

Exactly! I wish the lines were a little shorter anyway.

This will be a quaint discussion to look back upon in a few years, after the style is refined to a point where every brewery will have a NE IPA in their rotation.

Remember back when some people thought West Coast IPAs tasted like Pine-sol and weren't anything like the IPAs of the time...now West Coast IPAs are what you get when you order an IPA and the old IPAs are now pale ales.

So it goes...

 

[ThatVideoKid]

But I don't know, maybe us New Englanders (and a ton of people on this forum from around the world) are crazy.

Maybe it's the same reason we prefer

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459869834.202754.jpg

over

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459869865.575917.jpg

 

[hunter_le five]

Hazy beer is fine.

But this looks like someone ladled out some of my toilet water into a glass moments after my morning diarrhea.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Hazy beer is fine.



But this looks like someone ladled out some of my toilet water into a glass moments after my morning diarrhea.

I do agree that darker versions of the style are terrible looking...
Though they look slightly better in the light without a flash
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459870798.846177.jpg

 

[TheHopfather]

This thread.

 

[hunter_le five]

This thread.

You kids get off my lawn.

 

[atom]

Hazy beer is fine.

But this looks like someone ladled out some of my toilet water into a glass moments after my morning diarrhea.

gross.

it's like when a keg kicks and spews an ounce or so of keg sludge into a beer...it still tastes ok but i just can't bring myself to drink it. i guess everyone has a different tolerance when it comes to the appearance of their beer.

 

[Sir-Brews-Alot]

Yeah, I'll admit some of those "murky" beers look atrocious. It's as if a brewer thought to himself, "Gosh, those hazy NEIPAs are getting pretty popular. Well if a little haze is good, then 10x more haze will be 10x more better!" Those are probably the guys that you hear about adding flour to the boil. Of the NEIPAs that I've had, mostly from Treehouse and Hill Farmstead, they actually looked delicious to me, as well as taste amazing. But then again, I think Hefes and Witbiers look delicious too, even though I don't particularly like wheat beers.

 

[MVKTR2]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1459878446.400225.jpg this is a current spa I have on tap. It is cloudy because of a bad mash. It is delicious and chunk free save for occasional hop pieces. This is 15 days in the keg. Just sharing

 

[MVKTR2]

APA not spa! My point is it is very good, yeast free, and cloudy due to water chemistry and elevated protein/carbohydrates remaining after a bad mash.

 

[sdenue57]

Hazy beer is fine.

But this looks like someone ladled out some of my toilet water into a glass moments after my morning diarrhea.

Yes, that looks disgusting. That's why you have to try it from the top brewers of the style! Obviously not every brewer can make a great NE IPA. Because I wouldn't drink this, or the Donkey Kong one.

 

[fsh_bstrd]

Has anyone here actually drank any top ne ipas? Trillium, treehouse, hill farmstead, grimm, bissel? They have a mouthfeel that no other ipas style compares to. Its like biting into a cloud of juice. Almost feels like it evaporates off the palate and has no harsh bitterness or astringency. These are well made beers. Are all clear filtered ipas good? Hell no! So why you scared of some haze. Don't knock em till you try em!

 

[MVKTR2]

Though a huge beer and brewing geek I'm not a trader, wait in line, gotta have the latest xyz, gonna tick it off my list consumer. Thus, living in the deep south I've never had any of these NE IPAs. Fwiw I love the trend of big hoppy juicy with less bitterness beers. Sometimes I want bitter, sometimes I don't. Clearly, no pun intended, a beer that looks like cappuccino is 'different' in the modern marketplace. Does that mean bad? I'd say no unless it has needless protein chuncks (which it's defenders say aren't there) or tons of needless sediment that could be cleared simply by proper racking and crashing techniques.

So my question is, how are these beers made PROCESS-WISE that makes them different? Not talking recipe except for water, which I understand is a BIG part of it due to ... is it higher calcium content? Are they purposefully leaving starches/proteins in the mash/adding grains late in the mash that effects this?

 

[Braufessor]

So my question is, how are these beers made PROCESS-WISE that makes them different? Not talking recipe except for water, which I understand is a BIG part of it due to ... is it higher calcium content? Are they purposefully leaving starches/proteins in the mash/adding grains late in the mash that effects this?

This is how I go about doing it:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

There is a Facebook page called Tree House Home Brewers where people kick around various ideas to.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1651130348490612/

 

[ThatVideoKid]

A big thing is a MASSIVE dry hop, without a cold crash afterward

 

[Calichusetts]

So my question is, how are these beers made PROCESS-WISE that makes them different? Not talking recipe except for water, which I understand is a BIG part of it due to ... is it higher calcium content? Are they purposefully leaving starches/proteins in the mash/adding grains late in the mash that effects this?

I've stopped adding any finings to my beers. Just one less expense and I don't cold crash either. My beers are pretty hazy. My IPAS are very hazy. First 10 pints look a lot like the "good looking" NE-style pics posted.

In fact, I know the keg is almost gone when I can start to see my hand through the pint glass, this is often a month in...

You already hit on one aspect, water profile. I push mine to the limit, basically burtonize my water. Wheat (malt and flaked) really help. Less flocculant yeast strains, no crashing, packing when ready instead of letting it age, and a big dry hop should get you there (I double dry hop and keg hop.) While not necessary, the easy go-around is to add flour.