Brü's Views with John Wible | On The Hazy Beer Controversy

[Brulosopher]

A controversy has arisen over an aspect of beer that some seem to take quite seriously: clarity. With the growing popularity of so called New England/Northeastern IPA from the likes of The Alchemist, Tree House Brewing Co., and Hill Farmstead Brewery, people in clear-beer loving regions have begun to wonder what's going on. This is the focus of today's Brü's Views, which includes the perspectives of guest contributor John Wible from 2nd Story Brewing Co. in Philadelphia, PA. Check it out!

http://brulosophy.com/2016/03/31/brus-views-w-john-wible-of-2nd-story-brewing-co-on-beer-clarity/

 

[Calichusetts]

The term turbidity is slowly coming into the vocab of NE IPAs. I could care less if its clear or cloudy. Knee Deep can produce hoppy beers as well as trillium and the like. Its all about taste.

 

[NervousDad]

If I put a beer out like that as a homebrewer, I could only imagine what a first time drinker would think of our hobby. I don't care how good it tastes it looks like bile.

 

[cegan09]

If I put a beer out like that as a homebrewer, I could only imagine what a first time drinker would think of our hobby. I don't care how good it tastes it looks like bile.

What makes you think it would turn off a first time drinker? First time implies they don't know what to expect, so if it tastes good, they'll have no issues.

I'm firmly in the camp of why does it matter if it's cloudy? Having had a lot of the new england beers, I like them way more than the "west coast" style. Mouthfeel is better, the flavors are better balanced, overall they're more enjoyable. I can sit down and drink 4 in a row of Heady, Julius, Sip of Sunshine, etc. But after about 2 of a west coast I'm looking to find something else.

Why let something as silly as cloudiness let you write off some amazing beer?

 

[NervousDad]

There is cloudy/hazy and then there chunky/turbid.

 

[cegan09]

There is cloudy/hazy and then there chunky/turbid.

Correct, and chunky/turbid are not terms I would ever use to describe the beers coming out of this corner of the country.

 

[TheHopfather]

There is cloudy/hazy and then there chunky/turbid.

I think it looks delicious. Have you ever tasted one of these NE IPA's before? Or simply decided they "look like bile" and therefore must be bad?

What are your thoughts on wheat beers? Also bile, also bad?

 

[NervousDad]

I think it looks delicious. Have you ever tasted one of these NE IPA's before? Or simply decided they "look like bile" and therefore must be bad?

What are your thoughts on wheat beers? Also bile, also bad?

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

 

[jwalk4]

Uhhh yeah, I was going to say that I actually like a little haze, especially in my homebrew (depending on the style). Haze to me can impart a mouthfeel, and can accentuate that homemade flavor that I have come to enjoy from my beers, even if it is psychosomatic.

But what in god's name is that abomination!??!?!

 

[oceanic_brew]

Really gotta redefine what you think beer is supposed to look like to enjoy that. It looks like coffee.

I'm all for redefining

 

[tagz]

Yeah, the NE IPAs are not hazy. Hazy is not the right word.

 

[mattdee1]

^^ that beer looks like ass. Not because it's cloudy, but because it looks like a latte.

Count me among those who don't think clarity is important. Maybe for a Pilsener or a helles, but certainly not for any kind of ale I can think of.

 

[cegan09]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Ok, that is not at all representative of the good ones. All the ones around here are hoopy, but really really well balanced. Like I said, you can drink many of them in a sitting.

This is less unappealing.

 

[TheHopfather]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

Good lord. Okay, whatever that is looks nasty, I stand corrected.

However, something like this looks amazing to me.

 

[Denny]

If I put a beer out like that as a homebrewer, I could only imagine what a first time drinker would think of our hobby. I don't care how good it tastes it looks like bile.

And I find they don't actually taste that good. The protein/yeast/hop haze mutes the flavor.

 

[A2HB]

I get chill haze in all my beers so Im used to seeing a bit of cloudiness. That's fine for me but the thick, opaque, looking beers like that donkey kong stuuf there do not looking appealing to me at all. Looks like all the trub and cold break got bottled up and poured into the glass.

 

[Homercidal]

So now I know what our nearby brewer was ranting about when he hosted an IPAIIPA tasting seminar. I had no idea that brewers were selling muddy, chunky beer.

Ew.

 

[Sailingeric]

I agree with examples here, they all look great except for the Donkey Kong beer. I do get sad when a beer I make clears up when I wanted a little bit of haze to it.

 

[NervousDad]

Good lord. Okay, whatever that is looks nasty, I stand corrected.

However, something like this looks amazing to me.

That looks better because it's back lit by the sun (which is something that I'd never do to a hoppy beer). If you look at trillium or Julius indoors it doesn't look that nice. Not to mention that these beers stale unbelievably fast. I bought a case of zombie dust fresh off of the bottling line within a month is was not ever close to the same beer (pretty terribly actually)

Obviously it's subjective people are going to like what they like, but these beers to me just look like they were slapped together with no "craft". As a home brewer I'd never serve one in my house. Hazy sure, but this is some type of starch haze, yeast haze or maybe they tossed oats in the mix.

 

[Denny]

^^ that beer looks like ass. Not because it's cloudy, but because it looks like a latte.

Count me among those who don't think clarity is important. Maybe for a Pilsener or a helles, but certainly not for any kind of ale I can think of.

There is a huge difference between clarity and sludge.

 

[cegan09]

That looks better because it's back lit by the sun (which is something that I'd never do to a hoppy beer). If you look at trillium or Julius indoors it doesn't look that nice. Not to mention that these beers stale unbelievably fast. I bought a case of zombie dust fresh off of the bottling line within a month is was not ever close to the same beer (pretty terribly actually)

Obviously it's subjective people are going to like what they like, but these beers to me just look like they were slapped together with no "craft". As a home brewer I'd never serve one in my house. Hazy sure, but this is some type of starch haze, yeast haze or maybe they tossed oats in the mix.

With all due respect, you're making some huge assumptions based on look. Obviously look is subjective. I have no issues with them. But you're wrong on taste. I had a Julius that was at least 2 months old the other day, still awesome. A little different, but awesome. Kimmich from the Alchemist says he likes Heady (one of the first hazy beers) right around 10 weeks. I've had old cans of that as well, and it's still great.

 

[ifnotuthenwho]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

I have yeast slurries that aren't that cloudy. I don't think I could make myself drink that just because of the looks.

 

[CUrchin]

If you don't like how it looks than close your eyes... Some of these beers are darn good.

 

[tagz]

If you don't like how it looks than close your eyes... Some of these beers are darn good.

That's my closer on most first dates.

 

[Braufessor]

That looks better because it's back lit by the sun (which is something that I'd never do to a hoppy beer). If you look at trillium or Julius indoors it doesn't look that nice. Not to mention that these beers stale unbelievably fast. I bought a case of zombie dust fresh off of the bottling line within a month is was not ever close to the same beer (pretty terribly actually)

Obviously it's subjective people are going to like what they like, but these beers to me just look like they were slapped together with no "craft". As a home brewer I'd never serve one in my house. Hazy sure, but this is some type of starch haze, yeast haze or maybe they tossed oats in the mix.

Since that one is a picture of mine.... Here is the "nonbacklit " version of the same beer. I do like NE IPAs ... But Ido agree they are unstable as to flavor. I also am not a fan of the yeast-milkshake. I had some trillium last week. One was great, one was terrible. I am more for hazy, not so much for yeasty.

 

[Brulosopher]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

F*ck that, looks like diarrhea.

And I find they don't actually taste that good. The protein/yeast/hop haze mutes the flavor.

Same here. I accept the muted flavor is something I personally prefer.

That's my closer on most first dates.

Booooom.

 

[Hanglow]

This debate is similar to the one around what is called "London Murky" here

 

[NervousDad]

This debate is similar to the one around what is called "London Murky" here

It's spreading.... just look at the head on that beer you can see the protein. Kinda like putting beer in a dirty glass.

 

[madscientist451]

An interesting post, and after reading through the whole thing I was asking myself a few questions:
--Is clear beer just a marketing gimmick introduced when beer went from something made in the home to something produced on an industrial scale?
--Is cloudy beer a modern day gimmick to differentiate a product in a crowded marketplace? (some brewers use flour in the grain bill for extra haze)
--What beers benefit from mechanical or chemical interventions clear them and what beers are better left alone?
I think a series of side by side brews/taste tests with filtered/clear and unfiltered/hazy would be interesting. The results could be surprising.

 

[Braufessor]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

Yeah..... I would have to say I would have trouble with that. Taste is #1. Like it or not though, appearance plays a role in how we perceive things. There are lots of cloudy/hazy beers that are still visually appealing, and if they taste great as well...... well, awesome. But that is just gross looking. I don't think any lighting would do a lot for that.

 

[Homercidal]

Reminds me of the first time I went to Blackrocks in Marquette. They had just opened and were so popular they couldn't keep their fermentors filled long enough.

I won't say the beer was bad, but they were definitely selling it faster then it could ferment. Cloudy as all get out. And people kept drinking it up.

Now they expanded and started up a production location and sell some pretty darn good beer.

Pretty much the same with ELK brewing in GR. (Although I don't know if they have a production location or just upgraded their equipment...)

But those beers were NOTHING CLOSE to as murk as that stuff being posted here!

 

[mattdee1]

An interesting post, and after reading through the whole thing I was asking myself a few questions:
--Is clear beer just a marketing gimmick introduced when beer went from something made in the home to something produced on an industrial scale?
--Is cloudy beer a modern day gimmick to differentiate a product in a crowded marketplace? (some brewers use flour in the grain bill for extra haze)
--What beers benefit from mechanical or chemical interventions clear them and what beers are better left alone?
I think a series of side by side brews/taste tests with filtered/clear and unfiltered/hazy would be interesting. The results could be surprising.

Yeah, clear beer kind of reminds me of “glossy” photo prints, in a way. I remember when I started making photo prints, I would always select glossy as the finish because, well… glossy. It just sounds more fancy and attractive for some reason.

Glossy is nice sometimes, but eventually I started getting prints in matte finish and realized it often looks a lot better. Likewise with clear beer vs. hazy beer. Both have their place.

For my brewing though, I don’t really force one or the other. I just do the process as best I can and don’t sweat whatever level of clarity comes out the other end. I’m not interested in putting gelatin in my beer, or adding any other steps.. for now, anyway, maybe that will change later. Some beers have ended up ridiculously clear, others not so much. It seems to depend heavily on my yeast choices.

 

[moreb33rplz]

Yes we have a "NE IPA" konkey dong. And it's just okay, IMO it just hopped to the extreme just for the sake of hopping it to the extreme.

Nothing looks appealing about this beer at all

I also had tired hands which is a little bit nicer looking tastes pretty good.

Ew

 

[specharka]

I think there's a lot of prejudice and preconceived notions of what a beer should and shouldn't look like being espoused here. Personally, I don't give a damn how hazy the results end up being, so long as the beer tastes good. As it so happens, a lot of my favorite IPAs happen to be hazy ones (Hill Farmstead, Tree House & Alchemist to name a few)...but I can accept that could be a product of my environment. Although I've had my fair share of West Coast varieties (Rogue, Lagunitas, SNPA, etc), I understand that my preferences might not be universally shared.

My point being, don't knock it until you try it.

 

[jcav]

http://i.imgur.com/NOphJkP.jpg

I'm sorry all due respect to the brewer, but I don't think I could even get myself to take a sip of that, let alone drink it.....Just can' do it.

 

[Kiknjville]

I'm not really understanding all of this controversy but cloudy ipas really seems to have struck a nerve. Why do so many people have their panties in a bunch about this?

 

[The_Bishop]

Personally? I think it's a lazy/fast way to turn out a beer. If you don't need to wait for clarity, you an almost package it as soon as you hit FG and are carbed. It's a cut-rate way to turn out beer fast, especially when they harp on the whole 'drink it out of the can' angle because they know it looks like crap.

It's not a 'signature feature', it's a flaw. When the head on your beer looks like the hot break in the kettle it's not a positive thing. The lack of package stability is a further sign of the shortcuts taken in churning it out.

Hop-infused haze is OK. Deliberately yeasty styles are fine, the yeast is part of the flavor profile.

A can of mud with chunks of protein floating around in it is just lazy/poor practice.

Again, my opinion.

 

[maddrum2112]

Don't drink it if it bothers you. Simple enough. Some drinkers don't care for hoppy ipas, some don't care for darker beers like stouts and porters, hell, some don't drink anything other than bmc ! The market takes care of all of these problems. If people buy it, it will survive.

 

[Calichusetts]

Personally? I think it's a lazy/fast way to turn out a beer. If you don't need to wait for clarity, you an almost package it as soon as you hit FG and are carbed. It's a cut-rate way to turn out beer fast, especially when they harp on the whole 'drink it out of the can' angle because they know it looks like crap.

It's not a 'signature feature', it's a flaw. When the head on your beer looks like the hot break in the kettle it's not a positive thing. The lack of package stability is a further sign of the shortcuts taken in churning it out.

Hop-infused haze is OK. Deliberately yeasty styles are fine, the yeast is part of the flavor profile.

A can of mud with chunks of protein floating around in it is just lazy/poor practice.

Again, my opinion.

Agree, its just that NE style IPAs have no qualities you list. No chunks, no flaws. They just do a lot of late hopping, use yeasts that are less flocculant, don't do "unnecessary" filtering or cold crashing, and just bottle and serve when ready.

 

[Callacave]

Agree, its just that NE style IPAs have no qualities you list. No chunks, no flaws. They just do a lot of late hopping, use yeasts that are less flocculant, don't do "unnecessary" filtering or cold crashing, and just bottle and serve when ready.

So true. So many misconceptions from people who haven't even tried anything from here, and just go by what they read, and a few pics. Nobody wants to drink a beer with chunks floating in it, and we in NE don't produce that stuff like that. Breweries that do are completely missing the point.