All things Trappist

[Gregory T]

Did you ensure there was no solidified 'gunk' at the bottom of your bottles? I look at every bottle anymore after being bitten by random failures. Also, I Starsan the **** out of them.

I actually cleaned these very thoroughly. 3 of them are entered into a contests. The oven ones thankfully. I’m pretty sure it’s dishwasher soap which makes no sense to me

My old dishwasher went out so I installed a new LG dishwasher and put in a water softener at the same time. This dishwasher will now sparkle some glasses. We have very very very hard water in Indiana

I brew with RO water

I’m learning the controls of the new dishwasher and am obsessed with head retention at the moment so I wanted to sterilize my Belgian bottles in the oven. For an experiment on head retention I put three bottle to sanitize in dishwasher. No soap

Just to make sure the rimse aid off works

The head retention was similar though better in the sterilized bottles. Perhaps my best Tripel ever. Then I opend the dishwasher bottle. Ugh. I still can’t get that awful taste out of my mouth

I think somehow there is some leftover er dishwasher liquid or something. Or maybe rinse aid. I never bothered with it before cause of the hard water. I turned it off a week before bottling.

I’m really not sure, but I got bottles sterilizing in the oven for my blonde.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

My $0.02... ditch the oven and dishwasher method and buy some starsan and a vinator. Takes all of maybe 3 seconds to sanitize a bottle while your bottling and no doubts about their readiness!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

My vote is for Iodophor. It kills a more broad spectrum of nasties, and when used properly it is no-rinse. And a comparison of SDS's shows that it is much safer to handle.

 

[GnenieGone]

Pretty much rinse the day lights of the bottles just after use. Then a quick rinse and Star Sans for me. Used to do the dishwasher thing many moons ago..PIA for sure.

 

[Gregory T]

I’m assuming Star San/idophor doesn’t leave any off flavors in bottles? Do you use distilled/RO water with it?

I like the oven for sterilization but I can only fit 12 bottles at a time. That is a huge PIA. The dishwasher was pretty easy, but is obviously not gonna work now

I will probably try this vinator thing

 

[Big Monk]

I’m assuming Star San/idophor doesn’t leave any off flavors in bottles? Do you use distilled/RO water with it?

I like the oven for sterilization but I can only fit 12 bottles at a time. That is a huge PIA. The dishwasher was pretty easy, but is obviously not gonna work now

I will probably try this vinator thing

Bottles don’t need to be sterile. The oven is overboard if you ask me.

Rinse them right after use with hot tap water and use a liquid sanitizer like Starsan, iodophor or bleach/vinegar solution.

 

[Bassman2003]

For me, a Trappist inspired Ale is 97% fermentation, 2% Mashing and 1% all the other stuff.

Scotty,

I always like your posts here and on the Low Ox forum. I wanted to ask if you could elaborate on the 97% fermentation statement. Pitching around 64F is pretty straight forward. What is the rest of the magic? Do you let the temps rise to create more funkiness? If so at what percent gravity?

I mainly brew two types of Belgian beer - Tripel and Golden Strong. My favorites being Tripel Karmeliet and Duvel. I look forward to learning more about brewing these beer styles as I shore up my low Ox system. I read "Brew Like a Monk" and thought it was fascinating. Then I went to Belgium and was hooked. Thanks.

 

[Big Monk]

Scotty,

I always like your posts here and on the Low Ox forum. I wanted to ask if you could elaborate on the 97% fermentation statement. Pitching around 64F is pretty straight forward. What is the rest of the magic? Do you let the temps rise to create more funkiness? If so at what percent gravity?

I mainly brew two types of Belgian beer - Tripel and Golden Strong. My favorites being Tripel Karmeliet and Duvel. I look forward to learning more about brewing these beer styles as I shore up my low Ox system. I read "Brew Like a Monk" and thought it was fascinating. Then I went to Belgium and was hooked. Thanks.

Well, what I mostly mean is that most of the flavor of true Trappist Ale is is yeast derived. Look at a grain bill from Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay, etc. and you'll see a few malts and fairly light sugars. Where is the flavor coming from? Certainly not ingredients. It’s all yeast derived! That’s why the dogmatic syrup bomb, low temp “Belgian” homebrew fermentation gets you partly there but not the whole way. That method substitutes yeast derived aromas and flavors for ingredient driven flavors.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Bottles don’t need to be sterile. The oven is overboard if you ask me.

Rinse them right after use with hot tap water and use a liquid sanitizer like Starsan, iodophor or bleach/vinegar solution.

This ^^^^

 

[Bassman2003]

Well, what I mostly mean is that most of the flavor of true Trappist Ale is is yeast derived. Look at a grain bill from Rochefort, Westmalle, Chimay, etc. and you'll see a few malts and fairly light sugars. Where is the flavor coming from? Certainly not ingredients. It’s all yeast derived! That’s why the dogmatic syrup bomb, low temp “Belgian” homebrew fermentation gets you partly there but not the whole way. That method substitutes yeast derived aromas and flavors for ingredient driven flavors.

Thanks for your reply. So what is your advice for getting the most out of your Belgian yeast? You mentioned high pitch rates with low oxygen to limit reproduction rates early in the fermentation. Do you temperature ramp to affect the yeast character later in the fermentation? Condition at high temps? Or do you find a normal fermentation is fine?

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks for your reply. So what is your advice for getting the most out of your Belgian yeast? You mentioned high pitch rates with low oxygen to limit reproduction rates early in the fermentation. Do you temperature ramp to affect the yeast character later in the fermentation? Condition at high temps? Or do you find a normal fermentation is fine?

My advice, as always, is pitch more yeast with less oxygen and no temperature control. I don’t ramp. I pitch at 64 °F and leave it be (let it rise with no attemporation) until final gravity.

Normal room temperature conditioning is just fine.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I am a bit confused about saying "no temperature control". If I am using a wine fridge that is set to 64F, would I pitch at 64F then turn off the wine fridge? Or maintain 64F the entire time? My approach has been to pitch at 64F, wait a few days then turn off the fridge. But one golden ale had some fusel flavor so I think I need to be smarter about when I shut it off. Thanks for your input.

 

[catdaddy66]

It's about time for my next iteration of the Westvleteren 12 clone. I try to make it every 1-2 years as I tend to drink them quickly. It's my favorite Trappist beer but I have made other styles. My friends and family seem to like it best as well, maybe because I put so much love into each batch!

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks. I am a bit confused about saying "no temperature control". If I am using a wine fridge that is set to 64F, would I pitch at 64F then turn off the wine fridge?

Yes. Or don't use the fridge at all. Your choice.

I take the fermenter and submerge it to the liquid line in a room temperature water bath and nothing else. I like to have it in a room where the ambient temp is pretty consistent at the pitching temperature. That, coupled with the water bath, ensures no crazy swings in temperature from the fermenting beer.

Everyone is different though. That's what works for me and 3787 but it should be applicable with some tweaking to the other similar yeasts.

 

[isomerization]

Thanks. I am a bit confused about saying "no temperature control". If I am using a wine fridge that is set to 64F, would I pitch at 64F then turn off the wine fridge? Or maintain 64F the entire time? My approach has been to pitch at 64F, wait a few days then turn off the fridge. But one golden ale had some fusel flavor so I think I need to be smarter about when I shut it off. Thanks for your input.

You can leave it in the fridge and just set the cooling to the upper limit you want the fermentation to reach (eg 80F). Beer will naturally warm during fermentation and cooling won’t kick on until (or if) you hit your threshold.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes. Or don't use the fridge at all. Your choice.

I take the fermenter and submerge it to the liquid line in a room temperature water bath and nothing else. I like to have it in a room where the ambient temp is pretty consistent at the pitching temperature. That, coupled with the water bath, ensures no crazy swings in temperature from the fermenting beer.

Everyone is different though. That's what works for me and 3787 but it should be applicable with some tweaking to the other similar yeasts.

Ok. So your goal is to keep the fermenter close to the pitching temps and let the yeast heat the beer. You are not looking to let the fermenter go into the 70s letting the yeast 'run wild' so to speak.

By keeping your fermenter in the water bath that would be similar to keeping my wine fridge at 64F ambient. My wine fridge has a range of 39F to 65F. Great for a lot of styles unless one wants to go warmer. I would need a controller to go above 65F.

There is a homebrew belief about "Belgian" strains and warmer temps. More funk, better attenuation. I just need to experiment more with these styles as I have always been more focused on German, English and American styles of my 15+ years.

 

[Big Monk]

Ok. So your goal is to keep the fermenter close to the pitching temps and let the yeast heat the beer. You are not looking to let the fermenter go into the 70s letting the yeast 'run wild' so to speak.

Yes and no.

I don't want the fermentation temperature getting too warm, too fast. I do, however, want the fermentation to finish in the 70's about 5-6 days in. I want to control that natural ramp as much as possible without controlling it with external equipment. The water bath clamps down on swings and combines with my ambient basement temps to ensure that for the first 24-36 hours I stay below 66F. Around 48 hours in, temp starts to climb toward 68F and by day 3 or so, I'm close to 70F. From then on it rises into the lower 70's and typically finishes naturally at around 74-75F.

By keeping your fermenter in the water bath that would be similar to keeping my wine fridge at 64F ambient.

Not quite. You would still be controlling the temp at your max range for the wine fridge.

There is a homebrew belief about "Belgian" strains and warmer temps. More funk, better attenuation.

Let's be clear: There is no "funk" to be had with Trappist yeast. These are not funky beers. Estery? Yes. Phenolic? Yes. Hot and fusel-y if they get too warm, too quick? Yes. No funk though.

Which brings me to a point I always like to bring up: Trappist beers are Belgian beers the same way Gouda is a cheese. They are subset a big group of beers. Any generalizations about "Belgian" beers should come with a distinction between the many "styles" the country has to offer. Red and Brown Sours, Belgian Macro Lager, Regional Pale Ale, Trappist Ale, Abbey Ale, Lambic/Kriek/Gueze, Saison, etc. are all Belgian but are all very different.

 

[Dgallo]

Question for people. I read quite a few folks on here talking about 1.1-1.3 pitching to increase ester production. My specific question is why is over pitching producing more ester for the yeast. Shouldn’t under pitching and a longer growth stage do it?

 

[Gregory T]

Yes and no.

I don't want the fermentation temperature getting too warm, too fast. I do, however, want the fermentation to finish in the 70's about 5-6 days in. I want to control that natural ramp as much as possible without controlling it with external equipment. The water bath clamps down on swings and combines with my ambient basement temps to ensure that for the first 24-36 hours I stay below 66F. Around 48 hours in, temp starts to climb toward 68F and by day 3 or so, I'm close to 70F. From then on it rises into the lower 70's and typically finishes naturally at around 74-75F.



Not quite. You would still be controlling the temp at your max range for the wine fridge.



Let's be clear: There is no "funk" to be had with Trappist yeast. These are not funky beers. Estery? Yes. Phenolic? Yes. Hot and fusel-y if they get too warm, too quick? Yes. No funk though.

Which brings me to a point I always like to bring up: Trappist beers are Belgian beers the same way Gouda is a cheese. They are subset a big group of beers. Any generalizations about "Belgian" beers should come with a distinction between the many "styles" the country has to offer. Red and Brown Sours, Belgian Macro Lager, Regional Pale Ale, Trappist Ale, Abbey Ale, Lambic/Kriek/Gueze, Saison, etc. are all Belgian but are all very different.

They all do their Fermentations a little differently. Even the ones that use the same yeast. Though as you pointed out, you want to be careful about how you try to control this yeast

I think I read one of them top crops to slow it down?

 

[isomerization]

They all do their Fermentations a little differently. Even the ones that use the same yeast. Though as you pointed out, you want to be careful about how you try to control this yeast

I think I read one of them top crops to slow it down?

I found this blog post interesting with regard to same yeast, different ferm temp schedule and resulting commercial beer:

http://www.********************/bre...vised-guide-brewing-low-oxygen-monastic-ales/

 

[deadwolfbones]

Brewed a dubbel with Ardennes a couple weeks ago, otherwise generally following the "Averagely Perfect" recipe from the Beer Advocate homebrew forums. I DID temp control it, but started at 68 and ramped by 1 degree per day to 75. Ended up with a really nice combo of malt flavor and yeast esters that does remind me of the best commercial examples I've had (and that's just two weeks after pitching, I'm sure it'll get a bit better with some time in the keg).

 

[Big Monk]

Question for people. I read quite a few folks on here talking about 1.1-1.3 pitching to increase ester production. My specific question is why is over pitching producing more ester for the yeast.

Without getting too technical for no reason, anything that promotes yeast growth will promote higher alcohol synthesis/production and by extension, limit ester synthesis/production. There are exceptions and caveats but let's avoid the geek speak for now.

Relatively speaking, the more cells at the onset means less growth.

Let's say we want to ferment 5.5 gal/20.82l of 1.071 S.G./17.3 °P wort. If we treat the entire wort volume like a starter with no agitation, maximum cell density for the wort would be ~ 840 B cells. Some, even myself, think this may be even a little conservative, i.e. there may be > 1 trillion cells by the time it hits max but let's assume this.

If I pitch at 0.75 M/ml/°P, it would require ~ 270 B cells.
If I pitch at 1.25 M/ml/°P, it would require ~ 450 B cells.
If I pitch at 1.50 M/ml/°P, it would require ~ 540 B cells.

So you can see that I can shorten lag and yeast growth by pitching more cells. I can also aid in this process by not bombarding the wort with high levels of Pure O2.

Shouldn’t under pitching and a longer growth stage do it?

Underpitching and running them through a "starved" lag phase by undercutting O2 can work as well.

 

[Big Monk]

They all do their Fermentations a little differently. Even the ones that use the same yeast. Though as you pointed out, you want to be careful about how you try to control this yeast

I think I read one of them top crops to slow it down?

Probably Westmalle. Westmalle, Westvleteren, and Achel all use top-cropped Westmalle yeast. Achel and Westvleteren pick up the yeast on brewday.

Rochefort repitches from the 6 into the 8 and finally into the 10 before it discards it.

Chimay does not repitch. They grow a new lab culture for every batch.

 

[Big Monk]

I found this blog post interesting with regard to same yeast, different ferm temp schedule and resulting commercial beer:

http://www.********************/bre...vised-guide-brewing-low-oxygen-monastic-ales/

Yup. I wrote that.

 

[isomerization]

Yup. I wrote that.

I wasn’t going to connect the dots in case you wanted anonymity, but the water level comment triggered the association for me. Enjoyed the article, so thanks!

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for sharing Scotty. I need to do a more controlled ramp with the wine fridge then. I might look into an Inkbird for these beers to get the fridge above 65 in a measured fashion. I recently purchased a Tilt hydrometer. Would you have any gravity recommendations that might go along with temperature points?

 

[GnenieGone]

It's about time for my next iteration of the Westvleteren 12 clone. I try to make it every 1-2 years as I tend to drink them quickly. It's my favorite Trappist beer but I have made other styles. My friends and family seem to like it best as well, maybe because I put so much love into each batch!

Love to see a recipe if you don't mind. Need something to throw on this Quad yeast cake in a couple weeks.

 

[catdaddy66]

Love to see a recipe if you don't mind. Need something to throw on this Quad yeast cake in a couple weeks.

Sure, I actually have used two different ones but the more complex grain bill seems to give me better flavor in the final product. Weird, right? Lol

Once I get home I can post it though it is in the clone recipe thread here on HBT.

 

[Gregory T]

Yup. I wrote that.

that got me looking into hot side oxygen. Of course, that was right after I replaced my immersion chiller with a jaded hydra...lol

of course all the pics of the Trappists breweries have beautiful copper kettles. unless they're stainless inside

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Does anyone know if the various Candi Syrup Inc. syrups (D-45, D-90, D180) are merely various darkness levels of invert sugar? I.E., can homemade invert sugar #2, #3, and #4 be successfully substituted in their place?

 

[Big Monk]

Does anyone know if the various Candi Syrup Inc. syrups (D-45, D-90, D180) are merely various darkness levels of invert sugar? I.E., can homemade invert sugar #2, #3, and #4 be successfully substituted in their place?

Have you tasted their syrups? I’m inclined to say no. Some of what they say is hype but their sugars are very tasty and of a higher quality than much of the homemade stuff I’ve had.

By the time you get the supplies and put the work in, I don’t think you save anything by DIY, and I don’t believe you can match the quality.

I recommend the D90 and D180 as I don’t feel thier other syrups have any advantage over other commercially available sample or normal hard sugars.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Have you tasted their syrups? I’m inclined to say no. Some of what they say is hype but their sugars are very tasty and of a higher quality than much of the homemade stuff I’ve had.

By the time you get the supplies and put the work in, I don’t think you save anything by DIY, and I don’t believe you can match the quality.

I recommend the D90 and D180 as I don’t feel thier other syrups have any advantage over other commercially available sample or normal hard sugars.

I have not (as yet) tasted them. That said:

I did a quadratic regression of some common home recipe data for the manufacture of Invert Sugar, and from the formula derived thereby I came up with the following nominal times to hold the mix at 245 degrees F. The SRM color of the invert sugar rises exponentially with boil time. White table sugar is presumed.

For SRM = 45, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 129 minutes
For SRM = 90, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 171 minutes
For SRM = 180, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 209 minutes
For SRM = 240, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 226 minutes

For those attempting to achieve the nominal SRM colors (though admittedly all bets are off as to actual taste comparison) of the likes of D-45, D-90, D-180, and D-240 respectfully, these should be good boil hold times for your initial go at it. Then modify times if/as needed from these initial times when gained experience through actual runs dictates that modification is necessary.

Disclaimer: As always, trust but verify, as YMMV

It seems that the easiest thing to do would be to bring the mix to the 245 degree F. mark on the stove top, and then immediately transition the pot to a 245 degree pre-heated oven (this requires an oven suitable pot) for the recommended hold time(s).

 

[Big Monk]

I have not (as yet) tasted them. That said:

I did a quadratic regression of some common home recipe data for the manufacture of Invert Sugar, and from the formula derived thereby I came up with the following nominal times to hold the mix at 245 degrees F. The SRM color of the invert sugar rises exponentially with boil time. White table sugar is presumed.

For SRM = 45, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 129 minutes
For SRM = 90, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 171 minutes
For SRM = 180, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 209 minutes
For SRM = 240, hold the Invert boil at 245 degrees for 226 minutes

For those attempting to achieve the nominal SRM colors (though admittedly all bets are off as to actual taste comparison) of the likes of D-45, D-90, D-180, and D-240 respectfully, these should be good boil hold times for your initial go at it. Then modify times if/as needed from these initial times when gained experience through actual runs dictates that modification is necessary.

Disclaimer: As always, trust but verify, as YMMV

It seems that the easiest thing to do would be to bring the mix to the 245 degree F. mark on the stove top, and then immediately transition the pot to a 245 degree pre-heated oven (this requires an oven suitable pot) for the recommended hold time(s).

I have tasted them. That said:

I did a linear Google search of common CSI, Inc, prices, and I came up with the following formula for saving some time and NOT making your own syrups:

For Simplicity, save your money;
For Golden, save your money;
For their soft sugars, save your money;
For D45, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D90, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D180, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

This guide will save you time, hair, boiling sugar burns, etc.

You'll thank me later.

(All in jest of course Larry. We appreciate the info!)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For those of you who want the quadratic equation which I used above in order to dial in nominal (initial attempt) boil times for a multitude of other SRM colors of Invert Sugar, it is (rounded to 8 decimal places):

SRM = -3.03296703 + 1.08544566*X - 0.01281970*X^2 + 0.00005649*X^3

Where X = minutes held at 245 degrees F.

Simply copy and paste this formula "exactly as is" into a spreadsheet somewhere (copying it from above beginning with the equal sign and progressing to the to the right, excluding the letters "SRM"). Then pick the random cell into which you want to enter your desired minutes of boil at 245 degrees F., click into that cell, and then look to the upper left corner of the spreadsheet surround and find a box where the cell your cursor is sitting in will be identified within. Enter this box and replace the cell location of the cursor in the box (for example E5, if cell E5 is where your cursor currently happens to be sitting) with a capital letter X. All done. Now you can begin to enter random minute values into your newly chosen cell X (formerly cell E5, or whatever) and the SRM color to expect will instantly appear in the cell to which you pasted this formula.

In this fashion every cell within a spreadsheet that represents a variable can be literally and directly named for the variable. A cell could be named "Minutes" just as easily as it can be named "X". This makes it easy to understand the intent of the cell and the formula it is linked to down the road when you are wondering what its intent is. It also makes it easy to move a formula from one spreadsheet to another without introducing cell misidentification error.

 

[Gregory T]

I have tasted them. That said:

I did a linear Google search of common CSI, Inc, prices, and I came up with the following formula for saving some time and NOT making your own syrups:

For Simplicity, save your money;
For Golden, save your money;
For their soft sugars, save your money;
For D45, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D90, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D180, reach into your pocket and pull out $6.99 and hand it to your LHBS owner or online retailer;
For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

This guide will save you time, hair, boiling sugar burns, etc.

You'll thank me later.

(All in jest of course Larry. We appreciate the info!)

in place of simplicity add table sugar?

 

[Big Monk]

in place of simplicity add table sugar?

You can but use less by weight because of the potential extract difference (46.21 to 32 ppg)

Or use one of my favorites: Florida Crystals Raw Cane Invert Syrup.

 

[GnenieGone]

wow..bunch of nerds!

 

[Gregory T]

You can but use less by weight because of the potential extract difference (46.21 to 32 ppg)

Or use one of my favorites: Florida Crystals Raw Cane Invert Syrup.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For D240, ask yourself: WTH am I using 240 SRM syrup for?

I had to ponder this:

1) Maris Otter or Golden Promise plus just enough D-240 to achieve a final color of SRM 21-22 for the worlds most simple Scotch Wee Heavy recipe (along the lines of McEwan's). Shoot for OG = 1.086, and 20-22 IBU's (with only a 60 minute hop addition of Magnum).

2) Russian Imperial Stout along the lines of 'B.O.R.I.S. The Crusher' (my favorite RIS, in all of its iterations).

 

[Miraculix]

Gentleman,

On my quest to find the tastiest session beer (European session, meaning og around 1.026), I found that Belgian yeasts are really promising candidates.

Therefore I am planning to brew a beer with lallemand abbey and the following bill.

30% dark Candi syrup
10% crystal 60l
30% spelt flour (wheat)
30% Marris otter pale

20-25 ibus, mainly bittering hops, a touch of saaz as late addition, maybe I skip the saaz.

Keeping in mind the low og, I increased the flavour giving malts and adjuncts and the spelt to provide good head.

Any comments from the Belgian specialists?