All things Trappist

[Stand]

Just for my own edification, you aren’t suggesting that Belgian yeasts be driven through the same process, correct?

Seems reasonable to me that English yeasts would handle the temp swings, while Belgian yeasts would just go to sleep and quit.

This is my thinking as well. High attenuation is such a vital part of the Belgian beers I make, and, although Westmalle strain that I mostly use isn't the Dupont strain, the last thing I want is an under-attenuated beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Just for my own edification, you aren’t suggesting that Belgian yeasts be driven through the same process, correct?

You can't really generalise about "Belgian yeasts" like that, they're way too diverse. So I was more "this is how it's generally done in Britain, and you may want to let that influence how you treat your Belgian yeasts" - after all, there's a lot of British influence in Belgian brewing, from Orval to de la Senne. In fact I was drinking cask-conditioned Belgian beer only this week, you don't get more British-influenced than that!

So it's horses for courses - some Belgian beers look to maximise esters etc by turning up the thermostat and not worrying too much about what happens afterwards, others take a more British approach of going for some esters etc and then taking steps to stop the yeast cleaning them up.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

FWIW, I was perusing the 48 Oz. bottle of "Date Lady" brand organic "Date Syrup" that I bought on Amazon, and although it is packaged in Springfield, MO, the fine print states "A Product of Belgium". The ingredient list shows that it comes from only 100% organic dates. That it comes from Belgium means that it may be similar to (or perhaps even identical to) what is actually used in Belgian Candi Syrup.

Silver...did you ever try your Date Syrup? I was at the grocery store today and a bottle jumped in my cart ("D'VASH Date Nectar, "100% Organic California Dates" this: https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Nectar-Non-GMO-Gluten-California/dp/B07H1YMXQW). I am curious how much one would use for a 5 gal batch (4 oz? 8oz? 16oz?) and what type of flavors it would impart.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Silver...did you ever try your Date Syrup? I was at the grocery store today and a bottle jumped in my cart ("D'VASH Date Nectar, "100% Organic California Dates" this: https://www.amazon.com/Organic-Nectar-Non-GMO-Gluten-California/dp/B07H1YMXQW). I am curious how much one would use for a 5 gal batch (4 oz? 8oz? 16oz?) and what type of flavors it would impart.

Not yet. When you're older and retired like me things like plans and intentions sometimes move slowly. I was thinking along the lines of 4 ounces in a 6.5 gallon yielding batch.

 

[Jayjay1976]

This entire thread is liquid gold to us belgian beer lovers.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Personally I'd ditch any rest lower than beta and just perform 2 beta rests, a higher alpha, and a mashout:

Beta 1 - 145-147 F for 20 minutes
Beta 2 - 148-149 F for 10 minutes
Alpha - 162 F for 30 minutes
Mashout - 171-172 F for 10-15 minutes

This profile is pretty similar to what I've been doing lately, except the mashout is part of a "dunk sparge" using a grain bag, and rests while the "first wort" is heating. I'm unsure of how separating the liquor would affect the results.

I don't do an alpha rest, though. From what I've learned in school, the action of alpha will be mostly redundant after that long of a beta rest. In fact, for maximum fermentability, it would be most beneficial if it were possible to do an alpha rest first because it almost indiscriminately chops up starches into a variety of different saccharides, and breaks up branched glucose chains, leaving them accessible for action by beta amylase, which will only produce maltose. That being said, it seems to me that the beta rest for 30 minutes will convert almost completely, only leaving behind the branches of glucose units, and the alpha rest would at best make the wort slightly more fermentable by braking up those branches. So if you are after some residual body in a highly fermentable beer, I think you are best served leaving the alpha rest out of it.

 

[couchsending]

The alpha rest has other benefits other than just fermentability. Mouthfeel and foam would be the most important.

 

[filthyastronaut]

The alpha rest has other benefits other than just fermentability. Mouthfeel and foam would be the most important.

Mouthfeel from non-fermentable saccharides, but like I said the 30 min. beta rest would make it so the alpha has barely anything to work on, and if anything it would just produce more fermentables. Not sure how an alpha rest improves foam, too, unless we're talking about other enzymes that would also be active at that temperature.

 

[couchsending]

Mouthfeel from non-fermentable saccharides, but like I said the 30 min. beta rest would make it so the alpha has barely anything to work on, and if anything it would just produce more fermentables. Not sure how an alpha rest improves foam, too, unless we're talking about other enzymes that would also be active at that temperature.

Nope mouthfeel and foam from glycoprotein formation. Nothing to do with enzymes.

 

[filthyastronaut]

Nope mouthfeel and foam from glycoprotein formation. Nothing to do with enzymes.

Is there a benefit of doing a separate rest around 160 vs. 170 for mashout for glycoproteins? If so, then fair enough. I would still argue that the enzymatic benefit is dubious.

EDIT: I'll be giving a glycoprotein rest a go today with a Dubbel.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

A bit more touristy content than real beer content, but I came across this series of two guys biking around Belgium to hit the 6 Trappist breweries.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUZckUA2Sk-qL_K14CcUTHLuLvNdkPv4p

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. Great to see all of the abbeys. Special places.

 

[Stand]

I'm curious if anyone can recommend a recipe for something Belgian, dark, and sessionable? I keep a Trappist Single on tap year-round, but I want to make something in the 5% range for winter. I have WLP530 and WLP500 in the freezer. Any advice?

 

[filthyastronaut]

I'm curious if anyone can recommend a recipe for something Belgian, dark, and sessionable? I keep a Trappist Single on tap year-round, but I want to make something in the 5% range for winter. I have WLP530 and WLP500 in the freezer. Any advice?

I'm thinking take some of the pale malt in your Single recipe and replace it with an adjunct to add body, maybe Rye, and some Caramunich and Special B. Some Munich II might be good too.

 

[Stand]

I use a home-made Golden candi syrup for 6.3% of my grain-bill on my Trappist Single, so replacing that with D-90 or D-180 would be easy if I'm just adjusting that recipe.

Munich or Rye would also work great I'm sure. I just want something maltier and quaffable. I've been looking at the Munich Dunkel recipes for inspiration as well as a template to work around in beersmith. If I do I'll use munich and D-90 or D-180 are for sure.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Just reading back through this thread. Lots of great info and a thanks to @RPIScotty!

I just brewed a Trappist Single today. I had questions about my ferm schedule, but I think this thread mostly answered them. I chilled to 64F, pitched the yeast, and I moved the fermenter to a cool basement bathroom (64F to 65F range).

The recipe was:

• 9 lbs (91.1%) Pilsner (Floor Malted Bohemian) Weyermann
• 6 oz (3.8%) Aromatic Malt Dingmans
• 0.8 oz Northern Brewer - German (9.3%) 26.5 IBU - 60 min
• 0.75 Hersbrucker - German (2.3%) 4.1 IBU - 20 min
• 0.75 Hersbrucker - German (2.3%) 2.0 IBU - 5 min
• 8 oz Granulated Cane Sugar - 60 min
• 1 pkg Wyeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity (24 oz starter)

I just did a single temp mash (with a mash out) to keep it easy for this go (target was 150F, came in a 153F, dropped down to 151F via stirring over 5 mins). Gravity came in at 1.052 with calculated IBUs of 32.6, SRM of 4.1.

I am planning to brew a second batch of the Dubbel I brewed back in April with a few tweaks. I would like to brew a Triple, but might instead brew a few batches of Single to play with variables. I have a soft spot for 5% to 6% beers.

 

[Bassman2003]

I brewed a tripel end of summer and pitched at 64F and had my wine fridge set to 64. I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout. I was surprised to see the temp was already at 71 deg the next morning! So keeping 64 inside the liquid is challenging with Belgian yeast. The beer had some band-aid flavor that conditioned out so the next time I am going to pitch cooler and set the wine fridge lower in the early stages of fermentation.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I brewed a tripel end of summer and pitched at 64F and had my wine fridge set to 64. I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout. I was surprised to see the temp was already at 71 deg the next morning! So keeping 64 inside the liquid is challenging with Belgian yeast. The beer had some band-aid flavor that conditioned out so the next time I am going to pitch cooler and set the wine fridge lower in the early stages of fermentation.

What yeast were you using here?

 

[Bassman2003]

I used the Omega Belgian W.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I use a Tilt inside my fermenter which shows a temperature readout.

It will be hard for me to justify the price (and the DIY option looked a bit challenging for me) but I could really see the value in being able to monitor fermentation temps and gravity. A Tilt might be my next splurge item.

 

[Bassman2003]

I broke down and purchased one because I am spunding all of my beers now. So it takes the guess work out of when to transfer to keg. And it gives an internal temperature. But I do not know how reliable the temperature is? My lager fermenting now has an internal temp lower than my wine fridge! But it is moving in tandem so who knows. I should do some testing on the temp readout and maybe it can be calibrated.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've gone over the book titled "Brew Like A Monk" multiple times, and it appears in reading it that the Trappist Monks let their ferments rise into the mid 70's to even the mid 80's as a standard practice (the upper tolerance limit for which varies by Monastery). At least one of them only seems to absolutely panic when they are potentially about to hit the 90's during fermentation.

By comparison, holding Trappist Ale yeast to the 60's (Fahrenheit) does not seem to be a good practice for one wishing to duplicate their magic.

 

[Bassman2003]

I agree, but I think it is important for the first few days to keep the temps low. Band-aid is a sign that things got too hot, and in this case, too early. I like tripels, so I will be experimenting with this style and the same yeast going forward.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

By comparison, holding Trappist Ale yeast to the 60's (Fahrenheit) does not seem to be a good practice for one wishing to duplicate their magic.

That, Scotty's tips, and my prior (only 1 data point) experience getting the Westmalle yeast to finish out when trying to control temps was my motivation. Right now the ambient in my bath is 63F, the Single is fermenting well with a 3/4" krausen, and the strip on the outside of the fermenter reads about 65F. Setting the fermenter directly on the cool tile floor will cool it 2-3F based on past experience.

 

[isomerization]

May have missed it, but is there empirical evidence supporting the suggested pitch rate? I understand the goal is to limit yeast growth, just wondering if someone has looked at lag time versus pitch rate for these Trappist-style yeasts.

Just pitched into 8 gal of Tripel last night (1.076 OG), used 2 packs of 3787 (made 12/19) in a 2.5 L starter. Visible fermentation in 4 hr at 64F, machine gunning by 12 hr. Doesn’t look like I was anywhere close to the 1.25 million cells/mL/P.

 

[tripelthelightfantastic]

Pitch at 64F with no temperature control except the ambient temperature in my basement and submerge in room temp water bath. Typically rises into the low to mid 70s by 4-5 days in.

I package right after it hits final gravity and leave the bottles at room temperature for a few weeks before drinking.

I definitely want to give this a try.
What is the basement ambient /water bath temp to go from 64deg pitching to low-mid 70s 4-5 days in?

 

[mlaen]

Been reading through this thread a few times as i prep for my first trippel with 3787, and i'm wondering if i can reuse the part of the trub for the next batch of trippel and/or quad or is the yeast to stressed at this point?

 

[Kee]

Been reading through this thread a few times as i prep for my first trippel with 3787, and i'm wondering if i can reuse the part of the trub for the next batch of trippel and/or quad or is the yeast to stressed at this point?

That would work, especially if your first beer's original gravity is not too high, but I'd rather overbuild a starter and save some of that yeast. Alternatively, 3787 is a top cropping yeast and you could harvest fresh krausen from the first batch if your risk tolerance and fermenter allow you to scoop up some at high krausen.

 

[Jayjay1976]

That would work, especially if your first beer's original gravity is not too high, but I'd rather overbuild a starter and save some of that yeast. Alternatively, 3787 is a top cropping yeast and you could harvest fresh krausen from the first batch if your risk tolerance and fermenter allow you to scoop up some at high krausen.

I agree, and IMHO there is minimal risk involved in harvesting kraeusen because on the slight chance something does pop up, you'll likely have a comfortable window to enjoy it. This is why I adore Belgian styles.