Adding sodium without chloride –*baking soda?

[bjacokes]

I'm currently fermenting a "salted New England IPA" for a style-of-the-month competition, and got myself in a tricky situation.

On brew day, I added 2g gypsum and 6g calcium chloride to my mash, after reading that New England IPAs have a high chloride level. This gave me approximately 130 ppm chloride and 65 ppm sulfate (6 gallon batch). The mash included 3% acidulated malt, and my local water has about 30 ppm hardness. I don't test mash pH, but in my experience this gets me close.

My plan was to add salt to taste after the beer is kegged, but (duh) I later realized that this will further increase the already-high chloride levels. From testing on tap water, it seems that somewhere in the 75-125 ppm range of sodium gives a subtle but pleasant salt character to the beer. Getting to this range with NaCl alone will push chlorides up towards 300 ppm, which is pretty medicinal when I taste-test.

I'm wondering, does it seem reasonable to add sodium using a mix of both NaCl and baking soda, in order to get a sodium flavor without having the bad effects of super-high chloride? For example, adding 3.75g baking soda and 2.5g of NaCl would put sodium at 100 ppm and chlorides at 200 ppm. Compared with subbing NaCl for most of the calcium chloride (which I'd do if I re-brewed), the biggest difference is the added carbonate. I've seen on this forum that alkalinity is generally bad, but I'm not sure how bad it is in this amount, and how bad it is when added after mash and fermentation is done.

Of course, the other option is to skip the competition and leave the beer as-is, since the water chemistry is fine in the fermenter

 

[BigGutHeavyD]

Interesting situation, have you considered soda ash (Na2CO3 - similar to the sodium bicarbonate) or sodium sulfate (Na2SO4)? Sodium hydroxide (lye) is most probably out of the question.

 

[isomerization]

I would probably be more concerned with upping the pH and getting astringent flavors than upping the Cl and maybe getting medicinal flavors. I routinely have ~250 Cl levels (pre-fermentation, haven't tested post) and don't have issues with taste.

Once your beer is done, be scientific and add small amounts (that you can then use to calculate scaled up additions to the keg) to known volumes of finished beer. This will tell you when you've hit your salty levels.

 

[bjacokes]

Haven't considered soda ash or sodium sulfate. I'll do some research into how those would affect the mineral levels.

As for chloride, it's possible that the added sodium is part of the problem here. I.e. 250 ppm chloride and 100 ppm sodium is very different from 250 ppm chloride and low sodium, at least when I taste water at those levels. Maybe when I have the beer fermented and carbed I'll find out that the chloride level doesn't bother me, but I'm sort of doubting it. I'll definitely be testing salt additions on individual pints, I just want to have a general game plan first.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Most people these days seem to be running away from any need for the presence of sodium ions. Embracing them seems old school. Perhaps we are witnessing the dawn of the return of the dreaded sodium ions.

 

[mabrungard]

Nothing wrong with modest sodium content. Using baking soda and an acid to boost sodium without chloride is OK. You can devise a 'neutral' addition of baking soda and an acid by observing the bicarbonate concentrations reported in Bru'n Water. Its a relatively neutral addition when the +bicarb concentration from the baking soda addition is equal to the -bicarb concentration from the acid addition.

 

[ajdelange]

The sodium has to go with something thus you must add sodium chloride, sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), sodium carbonate (soda ash), sodium (mono/di/tri basic) phosphate, sodium lactate, sodium citrate, sodium sulfate or sodium hydroxide. The problem is, of course, the potentially undesirable effects of the anion. Many of the listed forms (hydroxide, bicarbonate, carbonate, di and tri phosphate) are highly basic and will pull pH out of whack. Of theses, the hydroxide can be neutralized with an acid to give water and the salt e.g. if you neutralize with lactic acid you get the same result as if you added sodium lactate. If you neutralize with sulfuric acid that gives the same result as adding sodium sulfate. If you use the bicarbonate or carbonate the anion is also destroyed but this time it is converted to CO2 gas which escapes but again, each destroyed mEq of carbonate or bicarbonate is replaced by one mEq of the acid anion.

Sounds as if extensive experimentation is the route to the answer.

 

[bjacokes]

Thanks for the detailed info. To clarify, you're implying that the bicarbonate contributed by 0.75-1.0 grams per gallon of baking soda will be noticeable and negative in the final beer, even with 3% acidulated malt in the mash? Even if that's the case, I'll probably test a sodium chloride + baking soda addition in a pint before doing further experimentation, but I'm specifically wondering what negative flavor/mouthfeel I should be looking out for.

If I do look beyond baking soda, I like the sound of sodium lactate, since it won't mess with the chloride:sulfate ratio or require an acid addition. Is there a guideline for how low I should keep the lactate concentration?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

7 grams of baking soda added to a nominal 5 gallon batch should give you 100 ppm Na. To neutralize this addition you would likely need to add roughly on the order of 8.5 to 9 ounces of acidulated malt. This would be in addition to any acidulated malt originally calculated to achieve a proper mash pH. Adding roughly 74ml of 10% phosphoric acid would be a better bet for this neutralization, since it would not have an impact on the flavor.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Or just add Sodium phosphate......

 

[ajdelange]

If you add phosphate be sure it is the mono basic salt (NaH2PO4). Its intrinsic pH (the pH of a solution of it in distilled water) is at mash pH. The problem with it is likely to be that it strips calcium out of solution. To minimize this effect add it to the finished beer not the mash or wort.

Do not use the di or tri basic forms. They are, as their names suggest, more basic than the monobasic salts and will require acid to neutralize that basicity.

If you want the lactate you will need about 0.9/84 = 0.0107 Eq = 10.7 mEq of acidity to neutralize 90% of the alkalinity of each gram of sodium bicarbonate thus bringing the bicarbonate to mash/beer pH. Since 88% lactic acid is about 10.9 N at beer/wort pH that would be about 1 mL of the acid per gram of baking soda added. This is a case where you would want to use the acid rather than sauermalz as the acid strength is better known. But even so you should make your additions gradually checking pH with a good pH meter as you go.

 

[bjacokes]

I'm still curious what flavor/mouthfeel effects would result from making the beer too alkaline. I believe I've heard "astringent" used for beers with a high mash pH – is that likely to happen even if the alkalinity is added to the final beer?

 

[BigGutHeavyD]

http://accidentalis.com/alkalinity-tannins-astringency-2/
http://www.homebrewersassociation.o...ions/pdf/2014/Water Chemistry and Beer pH.pdf

If added to the final beer it's not participating in the mash, boil or fermentation processes so the effect may be lessened (to an extent), being more pleasant with darker more malty beers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

When you mention adding sodium bicarbonate to the "final beer", at precisely what stage in the process are you now contemplating adding it? I.E, what is meant by "final beer"?

 

[ajdelange]

It's going to depend on what salt you used to do bring about the sodium increase. If you use sodium bicarbonate, for example, and let the pH go high much bicarbonate will remain in the beer (if you keep pH at normal beer pH most bicarbonate converts to CO2 and water) and bicarbonate doesn't taste very good as you can verify by dissolving some baking soda in a glass of water and tasting it.

 

[mabrungard]

"The difference between medicine and poison is in the dose"

If you would care to take AJ's advice, be sure to add baking soda at a dose that is similar to that used in brewing (its really small). I think that you'll find that there is no negative impact to the water (or wort) flavor.

 

[ajdelange]

He's not talking about the usual in-mash dose. An in mash dose can be quite substantial if there is enough acid in the grist to be neutralized but in any case the dose is chosen to set pH in the mashing range where most of the bicarbonate is converted to CO2 and water with the consequence of little bicarbonate remaining in mash, wort or beer. Here he is interested in a dose designed to set a sodium level which dose is also enough to raise the pH to the point where the beer is 'too alkaline' with the consequence that much of the added bicarbonate remains in the beer.

 

[bjacokes]

To the earlier poster asking about "final beer" – this would be added to the keg.

Interesting, so it's the bicarbonate itself that would be the off-flavor if I weren't to neutralize it. Baking soda in water generally just tastes salty to me, but maybe I'll try sodium chloride water vs baking soda water to see how those flavors differ.

(It's mostly an academic exercise at this point, since it's easy enough to add lactic acid to the beer, but it's interesting to me that there are far more descriptions of off-flavors for "too much chloride/sulfate/sodium" than for "too much (bi)carbonate".)

 

[ajdelange]

I couldn't begin to come up with a description of the flavor of bicarbonate of soda. Sort of salty but with a kind of flat slightly bitter component maybe? After tasting in water, try tasting in beer.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I couldn't begin to come up with a description of the flavor of bicarbonate of soda. Sort of salty but with a kind of flat slightly bitter component maybe? After tasting in water, try tasting in beer.

Perrier Water perhaps?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If sodium is claimed to bring a certain mouthfeel smoothness or fullness to beer, would it be possible to somewhat duplicate these qualities (without jumping through hoops to add sodium ions) simply by intentionally mashing at pH 5.6 to 5.7?

 

[ajdelange]

Actually it is the chloride that is credited with increasing mouthfeel and body.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

You want a salty IPA. Brew the IPA. At bottling add salt to taste. I think some of you are over thinking it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You want a salty IPA. Brew the IPA. At bottling add salt to taste. I think your some of you are over thinking it.

The OP stated that he didn't want to bump up the already high Cl- ions, but did want to add 100 ppm of Na+ ions.

 

[bjacokes]

To update: I kegged a few days ago, had a few tasty (unsalted) pints, and then did some side-by-side glasses with various amounts of salt. I found 1.25-2.0 grams of NaCl per gallon to be a sweet spot where the salt was not overbearing, but its character was noticeable. As ajdelange noted earlier, the mouthfeel is already pretty full-bodied due to the high chlorides. The salt reduces the bitterness even more, gives a very subtle savory aftertaste, and about 30 seconds after having a sip, I get a bit of "ocean air" taste akin to what you get while sitting on a beach.

In the end, I added 5g of salt to the 4 gallons of beer that remained in the keg, which was the low end of my preferred range. This gives me roughly 330 ppm of chloride and 130 ppm of sodium. I think a bit more salt might be OK, but 2g/gallon would start to affect drinkability. Next time, I might start with a lower chloride level and see if I can get away with salt levels of 1.5-1.75g/gallon.

Notably, this level of chlorides (330 ppm) was undrinkable for me in plain water, but it's well-integrated in the finished beer – I didn't end up needing baking soda or lactic acid to make it palatable. I guess this is similar to how the salt level in a broth might seem terrible until you actually add the bones/vegetables. As a water chemistry newbie, I've just been indoctrinated to think that if the water tastes bad, the beer will taste bad, but it seems that you can go a fair bit above the prescribed limits without things going too poorly. Keep in mind, though, that I *want* this beer to have some salty "rough edges" so that it adheres to the style, so 300+ ppm of chlorides will likely be a negative unless you're actively trying to make a beer with a non-traditional character.

Hope this helps others, and sorry I didn't follow through with my baking soda experimentation!

 

[bleme]

I'm no chemist and this thread looks to be solved, but what about using MSG?

 

[ajdelange]

1) I think it's fairly acidic and if I'm right that would need to be neutralized if you didn't want a pH shift.
2) Your beer would have increased umami.
3) After drinking your beer you might suffer Chinese restaurant syndrome.