2 years of failure..i think i finally figured it out.

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beerhound28

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Hello everyone
I posted a topic yesterday"beer taste like star san" i think i was wrong..I read up on hot side aeration and i think that is the culprit to my endless dumpers i produced over the years(stale wine,bad citrus star san'y, horrid off flavors)..I post this to help keep people aware of HSA so they dont botch batch after batch like i did..im sure you wont but knowledge is golden..cheers
 
Not to burst your bubble, but I would find it highly improbable that hot side aeration is the source of your bad batches. Give us a quick run down of your process and we can point you in the correct direction.

(I only say this because it seems that HSA is moving into don't worry about it category).

Edit: I just read through your other thread, but I still don't think HSA is the source of your issues
 
I always try and keep it basic with a single infusion,mash in target 152*
rest for 60 mins
mash out 170*
batch sparge sometimes dont sparge
collect wort, boil 60 mins with hop additions
cool to 70*
pitch starter
try an keep temps between 62*-68*
hydrometer readings 3 days in a row after 2 weeks
bottle
everything i do is very basic and by the book
but looking back i might have stirred the mash or the wort to much while coming up to a boil..i cant think of anything else im doing wrong..i am very tedious with cleaning/sanitation..somepeople say i might be a supertaster.idk but to me i never made a good batch yet..
 
what water did you use, I wasted a 50 kg bag of malt on not so good beer just because of crappy water, even if i filtered it myself, bottle water and even ground water (borehole) is much much better (and good pitching....atleast a 2L starter)

stirring mash is good. and stirring boiling wort would not make a difference

2c
 
I always try and keep it basic with a single infusion,mash in target 152*
rest for 60 mins
mash out 170*
batch sparge sometimes dont sparge
collect wort, boil 60 mins with hop additions
cool to 70*
pitch starter
try an keep temps between 62*-68*
hydrometer readings 3 days in a row after 2 weeks
bottle
everything i do is very basic and by the book
but looking back i might have stirred the mash or the wort to much while coming up to a boil..i cant think of anything else im doing wrong..i am very tedious with cleaning/sanitation..somepeople say i might be a supertaster.idk but to me i never made a good batch yet..

This is almost exactly my method, except that I do a longer ferment. I just primary for a month and bottle.....pretty much everything. Strictly K.I.S.S. brewing, plastic buckets, etc. I am not bragging, just informing- I've never had an infected batch.
 
The majority of off-flavors in beer are yeast derived. You say you're making a starter and that's great. How exactly are you controlling your temperatures? You say you're trying to keep it between 62 - 68 but how? I would think the odds of this repetitive off-flavor being from hot side aeration (a myth btw) are way lower than from stressed yeast.
 
I would think the odds of this repetitive off-flavor being from hot side aeration (a myth btw) are way lower than from stressed yeast.

if you are so confident that HSA is a myth, why do you only "think" that the odds are less that its from HSA, you should know for sure. ;)

HSA is real, but the odds of it having a meaningful impact on your beer are pretty low. From what folks like dr. bamforth say, the typical homebrewer is going to cause more staling compounds with the O2 the introduce during packaging than during anything caused by HSA.

OP, there is nothing in your process that sounds atypical or likely to cause HSA problems, unless when you say "stirring the mash" you refer to whipping it to a froth with a hand held blender. :D

Do you have any homebrewers around you who's beer you've had and enjoy? Go spend a brew day with them, or have them spend a brew day with you. If you don't know any homebrewers who's beer you enjoy, you need to find some. Other than that, use a single, well proven recipe, and start changing one thing at a time. Change your sanitizer, change your water, change your grain supplier, etc, etc, while keeping all else constant.

Oh, other question, when does it start tasting bad? i.e. is it bad in the kettle? is it bad when you sample gravity after a couple weeks? is it only bad after bottling?
 
Oh, other question, when does it start tasting bad? i.e. is it bad in the kettle? is it bad when you sample gravity after a couple weeks? is it only bad after bottling?

This is the question I come to as well. I had several batches when I first started brewing (extract w/ specialty grains) that tasted great on bottling day, but after 3 weeks in the botter were garbage. I went from thinking it was chloramines in my water to HSA to maybe a wild yeast infection to not really knowing what to think. My sanitation & processes seemed solid to my other homebrewing buddies.

As a last-ditch effort to rule things out, I brewed another batch of beer, sanitized some bottles on brewday and bottled some wort without yeast. Then I bottled some wort before I added the priming sugar on bottling day, and then tasted all of them a few weeks later. The culprit? Something in my bottling bucket. I threw that away, got a new one along with plastic hose, and bottling wand and the problem disappeared.

Point being: As diligent as I was with sanitation, sometimes the problem can be imperceptible.
 
BeerHound: It's easy to theorize on the web, but theories don't mean much until they're proven. There is only one way to prove this: make another batch, minimize aeration (splashing) on the hot side and see what you get!
 
Have you ever had someone with more experience that you actually taste the beers and tell you if anything is wrong? For all we know you're sampling your beer too soon, tasting green beer, declaring that there's something wrong, looking into some book, believing that's the cause then dumping your beer.

We don't even know if you're dumping it before it's even in the bottles and throroughly bottle conditioned.

Have you ever just tasted your beer, tasted whatever you thought was wrong, but just put the beer in the closet for a month or two or or a year and revisited them to see if whatever you thought was wrong was even still there.

I see this so much with newer brewers, declaring every batch off, before they've even given the beer a chance to actually finish the process.

I call it "Noobitus Hypochronditus," the tendency to just jump the gun and declare a beer bad waaaaaaaayyyyy too soon in the process.

Are these "dumpers" even making it into the bottles, let alone getting to sit for a couple months? Some beers may actually take up to a year to come into their own....or at least 6-8 weeks in the bottle sometimes...not that there is anything wrong, just that the flavors need to come together and the yeast to clean up after itself.

My experience with answering questions daily of new brewers is throwing off alarms that lead me to believe that your the kind of slightly impatient newish brewer who expects the first sip of a beer to be perfect, but who doesn't give them enough time for that to happen, because they've declared it bad, and dumped it. And then looks around for all these reasons, then jumps on the latest one he finds...when in reality the only thing that was wrong was not letting the beer clean up.

It really is hard to ruin beer, despite what we do it seems are beer survives....And I don't think you're a cursed brewer that seems to have constant bad batches because we don't...I think you may think you have bad batches, because you're declaring them that way before they've even gone through their complete journey.

Please read these stories of folks, just like you who thought their beer was bad, but instead of dumping, they finished the process, and left the beer alone for weeks or months or even years, and came back to find their beer was delicious.

In all my years on here, I've never come across folks with consistanly bad batches of beer, OR a lot of true bad batches of beer, but a heck of a lot of new brewers who THOUGHT they had problems when there really was none.
 
I had a 7 week nightmare as I tossed out 6 batches and the culprit was my bottling bucket. Plastic sucks and can get micro scratches. I even stored star san in the bucket. After I spent the big bucks for a new bucket I have not has a problem.

I have read several times to never use a bucket more then 30 times. Can't back it up but . . . .

Maybe not you problem but . . .

And as Revvy says. Are you sure they are dumpers. Ive had dumpers taste GREAT after 8 weeks in a bottle.
 
+1 to Revvy's post. I'd also be curious what your recipes look like too, not sure if that has been mentioned. There are some styles that might be ok but green if you bottle them at two weeks, but there are also quite a few that will be downright rough until you have the patience to see them through until they're really ready.
 
Honestly, at this point, I'd see if you can convince some one that is local to you to come observe one of your brew days/bottling day and give you feedback. I've met a bunch of guys on the forum and they have all been extremely helpful and I've learned things from watching them brew that I never would have figured out on my own.
 
Have you ever opened up the spigot on your bottling bucket?

I always take mine apart after EACH brew now and clean it well and sanitize it separately before putting back together.

You will never clean one completely unless you take it apart. They are cheap enough to have 2 on hand to replace with if they start leaking.

And I wouldn't rule out your water even if it's spring water. Just because it comes in a bottle doesn't mean it's great water for brewing.
 
You will never clean one completely unless you take it apart. They are cheap enough to have 2 on hand to replace with if they start leaking.

Jeeez, i gotta clean that too?

Am I a brewer or a janitor? !!

**4 batches in and i'm fully appreciating the amount of cleaning**
 
I had a persistent off flavor in a half dozen batches that I couldn't peg down.. A couple other brewer/beer geeks tasted the beers and didn't detect anything amiss. Turns out I just don't like the taste of Nottingham. Everybody says it's clean, but after repeating several recipes with the same process, ingredients, and equipment to find that they did not have the off taste when I used US-05... The answer became clear. :)
 
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