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RPowell

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Hello everyone,

Let me start out by apologizing for the following wall of text. I like to write and I like to chronicle my new projects, which, when aggregated make for a fairly long read. Without further ado...

I recently took it in my head to try a batch of cider, never having done anything of the sort before. I really don't know why it suddenly became "A Good Idea (tm)", but it did, so I set off to glean from the internet the basic knowledge one needs to perform this miracle of natural science. This is also what led me to this forum. Whether, ultimately, this is a good thing is left as an exercise to the reader.

The goals were:
1) spend as little as possible - I didn't want to spend a lot to try out the first batch. If I fail miserably, I don't want to be out a lot of money. Alas, for me, failure is an option.
2) attain something drinkable
3) produce a sweet cider
4) stretch goal - attain something worth drinking, which can be different and #2
5) Bonus goal - avoid bottle bombs after bottling.

To satisfy goal #1, I decided I would start out with two 1-gallon batches using pasteurized organic apple juice without preservatives. I purchased:
4 1-gallon jugs for primaries and secondaries
1 package of ec-1118 yeast
1 container of nutrient
1 container of star san
2 stoppers
1 airlocks
6ft of tubing
1 hydrometer.
Total cost, including juice, about $65 bucks. I was rather hoping to buy juice in glass bottles, which would have saved a few bucks, but I am far too impatient to shop around. Ideally, I was hoping to get into the first test batches for about half the cost, but what the heck. If I make something worth drinking, I'll invest in better kit.

After sanitizing everything (for your protection!), I boiled a cup of water and added, according to a recipe I saw on the internet, 2 cups of brown sugar to it. I also made a second round of 1 cup water + 1 1/3 cup of honey for the second batch. After they were cooled sufficiently, I put them in the two jugs, and filled them with the apple juice. I was told by the Kind Lady at my local home brew store that I couldn't over yeast so, for simplicity's sake, I put half the package in each jug along with a teaspoon of nutrient as per the bottle's directions. Then I mixed it a bit with a sanitized spoon, popped in the stoppers and air locks and put them down in the basement (which stays about 70ish degrees pretty much constantly) and checked them 4 hours later.

Noteworthy (to me) at this point:
I had apple juice leftover as a result of using the water/sugar method. I hope that doesn't affect the taste of the final batch. I suppose I can overcome any flavor deficiency by sweetening with apple concentrate at bottling time.

The batch has already started to bleed off gas in the airlock, which makes me think I might actually attain #2.

I had never read a hydrometer before. Assuming I did it right, brown sugar started at 1.082 and 1.078 for the honey batch. Again, if the internets and my reading skills are to be trusted, I should come in at roughly 10% alcohol or so for each. That was what I was hoping to do, so maybe I got that much correct, at least.

Next step, further my knowledge about the process of using the secondary. It appears that I siphon off from the primary, do nothing else except let it sit for about two weeks.

After the secondary, I need to figure out how I want to sweeten and bottle this stuff. Again, cheap is the order of the day. I was told by the aforementioned Kind Lady, that I could pasteurize the bottled batch at the appropriate time by running the bottles through the dishwasher without soap. Sounds like it might work, after all it is a hot water bath... but I'm sure there are other ways that don't involve major appliances.

I realize that not everyone wants to read every detail about a clueless beginner's first attempt at making cider (and likely doing it either wrongly or in the most primitive, unscientific method possible), but I'll perhaps keep this thread updated with questions, notes and progress. Perhaps it'll be of use to someone other than me in the future :)

I would appreciate comments, as well, if you've a mind to share them!

Thanks,
Ron
who is often too long-winded for his own good
 
update: had yeast in the airlocks a couple times. guess I should leave more headspace... the airlocks are still bubbling after cleaning, sanitizing and replacing. i hope that's a good sign. I had to clean both airlocks twice today...
 
Good luck! Seems like you're at least in the right ballpark. With that kind of cider sometimes patience is key. Those OGs are kind of high and when the cider is young it will probably be quite "boozy" and not to full potential. Check out the epic Edwort Apfelwein thread when you get a chance ;)

Juice in glass bottles is often high quality (and for me usually only found in places like Whole Foods or a co-op kind of place), but also quite expensive usually. Like $7-9 for a gallon of apple juice...ouch.
 
A little more yeast in the airlock today. Is that "ok" or must it be dumped, rinsed and sanitized? How long is it ok to sit there? it might have been in there 24 hours. the water is mostly clear, at least. To be clear, i'm going to go and redo the airlock (safe being better than sorry) but the questions remain...

Also, I detect the unmistakable aroma of apples around the airlocks :)

finally, by adding nutrient, does that shorten the ferment time? Maybe make fermentation more efficient? both? neither?
 
Ferment cider without nutrient: 6 weeks

Ferment cider with nutrient: 7-8 days
 
my "honey" batch is down to bubbling about every 30 seconds. The brown sugar batch is about 15 seconds. I'm gonna let 'er sit a few more days then test the specific gravity. I'll be headed for secondary later this week, maybe.

Still gotta figure out what I want to do about sweetening and carbonating. I don't necessarily want to use an artificial sweetener, but I know my "budget" choices are between naturally sweetened still cider or carbonated artificially sweetened cider. I figure i got at least 2 weeks in the secondary to make a decision (and perhaps try out some artificial sweeteners). I have to admit, I still have a fear of bottle bombs, but people manage to do this all the time, so I figure I can git'r'done.

I figure once I go to secondary, I'm going to start a third batch (me, being the eternal optimist). I picked up some safale-4 today... gotta decide on the sugar to use.

These are pretty quality problems to have.


Part of me hopes that I actually manage to make some decent stuff so I can pseudo justify force carbonation equipment sometime down the road... :)
 
I don't drink sweetened beverages, but a really cheap way to make a sweet carbonated beverage is via stovetop pasteurizing. See the "sticky thread" at the top of this forum for details.
 
OH boy.

racked to secondary tonight. found out two things:

1) I suck at siphoning using a simple tube and lost a good pint to the floor.

2) This stuff tasted really, really, really, really raw. I expected that and know it's normal. I did sweeten it a bit and added some regular apple juice to simulate backsweetening and I think this stuff has some real potential :)

i'm gonna let it sit in secondary for a week or two. I'll have to decide about bottling/carbonating/etc., soon.

My honey batch had a light flavor (once you got past the harshness) and was pretty pleasing. The brown sugar batch didn't have much to recommend it (being the rough equivalent of, say, napalm) , but just when I decided I made a huge mistake with that batch, I got a subtle hint of brown sugar... if it mellows, it might be surprisingly pleasant.

patience. i wish i had more of it! I can't wait to see how this turns out. :)
 
1) I suck at siphoning using a simple tube and lost a good pint to the floor.

LOL, sounds like you don't suck at siphoning. You're supposed to suck at siphoning :D

Put your hand around the end of the tube and suck your (sanitised) hand, not the tube, so that you don't contaminate the end of the tube with mouth bacteria. Or buy an autosiphon if you don't like to suck. Also, one of the rules of physics regarding siphoning is that you need "drop" between the bottom of the origin vessel and the top of the receiving vessel. The more the better, but at least 30 cm / 1 ft.

You can practice your racking skills with water in your vessel instead of product.

This whole business of racking off the heavy lees becomes a non-issue if you do primary in a bucket with a spigot. Just hook a tube up to your spigot, open her up and let her go. You still need the same amount of drop, though.
 
Yeah, I had all that going, the line was primed with sanitizer solution, I let the sanitizer in the line go into a bucket. When I got cider, I put the tube in the bottom jug, turned away and the tube came out of the bottom jug... stupid, stupid mistake... at least I didn't have that problem with the 2nd batch.

If I get enough confidence in the first few trial runs to go to a 5 gallon run, I think I just might try the bucket and spigot set up. seems like a no fuss way to get it done. I might invest in one of those bottle filler contraptions as well, to make the flow easier to control...

I have to admit, I know the final product is going to be way better than this, but I do have some uncertainty that I'll get this ugly duckling I started with to turn into a swan. That just comes from having no experience doing this, I suppose. Either way, i'm going to let it sit at least a week, if not two and in the meantime decide what to do about bottling and backsweetening. I really want to naturally sweeten (probably with apple juice and whatever sugar I used to make the batch, honey or brown sugar), carbonate and stovetop pasteurize per the sticky. I just need to get my bravery up a bit!
 
I bottled my last batch of cider into 750ml pressure-safe PET bottles when it was at 1.010, i.e. not done fermenting yet but close enough that I know it will carb and won't explode my bottles.

It's got a nice hint of sweetness, plenty of apple taste, and carbing up nicely. Out of some 40 odd 5 gallon batches, this one is my best ever. My wife agrees, too. I don't normally carbonate, just let it ferment dry and then bottle, but tried it this time and it really brought out the flavor.

It was my standard recipe, nothing different at all: 20 liters of juice, kitzinger's champagne yeast, 750 grams of sugar, and about 50 grams of DAP/nutrient mix.

So, as you can see there's no need to backsweeten if you just bottle when it's a bit sweeter than you want it. Do not try that with glass bottles, though . they will explode.

Making good cider isn't complicated, just hang in there and you'll nail it sooner than later.
 
Ferment cider without nutrient: 6 weeks

Ferment cider with nutrient: 7-8 days

Does it really make that much of a difference? I ask as i didn't use it when i racked to secondary at 1.005 on June 9th. Just measured 12 hours ago and it was at 1.003. Should it be going that slow as primary went from 1.045 to 1.005 in 11 days?


Great walk through RPowell! I just got started as well and plan to pasteurize per the sticky mentioned here. Good luck!
 
Does it really make that much of a difference? I ask as i didn't use it when i racked to secondary at 1.005 on June 9th. Just measured 12 hours ago and it was at 1.003. Should it be going that slow as primary went from 1.045 to 1.005 in 11 days?

Nutrient should be added to primary when putting the batch together, not to secondary. In my tests, yes, it really makes that much of a difference in finishing time. Anyway, 1.045 is not that high of a starting gravity. That's pretty much what one would expect with plain old apple juice, no sugar added. And there isn't any need to do secondary with cider, anyway.
 
Stupid mistake alert:

How likely is it that I ruined my cider? I noticed today, after about 36 hours in secondary, that when the 3 piece basket style airlock was put back in place, it was missing the middle piece. in essence, it's been open to the air... Now, there can't have been *that much* airflow, the cider is clearing and there are no floaties running around... but... is it a lost cause now?

Signed,
MoronicMistakeMaker
 
I certainly wouldn't say it's doomed. Maybe give it a taste, put it together correctly, and taste again in a week or so.
 
that's reassuring, thanks, guys.

i'm really hoping to get these first two batches into bottles soon... to have half one's production go bad due to a stupid mistake... not the best feeling :)
 
You're probably fine. Just don't make any long term aging plans for that batch and drink it first


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
So, I embarked on a similar quest to yours over the last year. Another factor to consider is whether wine or beer yeast is better fro your cider. I've tried both, and here is what I have so far found. Wine yeast is good because you know it will ferment everything dry, and still be able to carbonate. The downside is it seems to ferment out alot of the apple flavor, and thus you need to backsweeten with artificial sweeteners if you want something besides a veeery dry, tart cider with bubbles.
I switched over to Beer yeast (nottingham or US 04), and found that it leaves more apple flavor due to not fermenting quite as fast or dry. The downside is if I add too much sugar, the yeast can crap out from high ABV and doesnt carbonate the cider in the bottles.
The solution is to make it with straight juice and not add sugar, you can still get a 5-6% cider without adding sugar

I backsweeten/prime with Juice concentrate and sugar, then stovetop pasteurize.

I'd try a gallon with beer yeast and no added sugar before you scale up to 5
 
Wine yeast is good because you know it will ferment everything dry, and still be able to carbonate. The downside is it seems to ferment out alot of the apple flavor, and thus you need to backsweeten with artificial sweeteners if you want something besides a veeery dry, tart cider with bubbles.

That won't happen if you keep your SG max 1.065
 
My cider has been in secondary for 9 days. Impatience being what it is I am going to try to backsweeten and bottle one of my batches on july 4th. If it goes well, I'll bottle the other in a couple weeks. Im going to hit it with some frozen (but thawed) concentrate and apple juice. After reading all 111 pages of the pasteurization thread, I think ill be ready when it carbonates.
 
ok, batch one in bottles. the timer begins...


It has been about 4 days. I honestly can't tell if my soda bottle is getting firmer or not. I think it is but I wonder if it is just wishful thinking. Is this at least some what normal? After the stories of bottles being carbed after a few hours, I am starting to worry a little.
 
It has been about 4 days. I honestly can't tell if my soda bottle is getting firmer or not. I think it is but I wonder if it is just wishful thinking. Is this at least some what normal? After the stories of bottles being carbed after a few hours, I am starting to worry a little.


Yes it's normal. Keep checking it a few times a day. When it's rock hard, you'll laugh at yourself for thinking it was at call carbed when it was soft.
 
opened one up last night and it was basically uncarbonated. I think I might have tasted the very beginnings of a ghost of a hint of the implication of carbonation, but it was definitely not fizzy. Everyone who tasted agreed the flavor was good, but no carbonation. I'm a little disappointed. Do you folks think there's still hope for carbonation and I should stay the course?

I'm going to bottle my second batch this weekend. maybe i'll have better luck there...
 
I checked my soda bottle today - ROCK HARD. I opened a glass bottle. it had more carbonation than the last one and you can definitely tell it's carbonating, but it had WAY WAY less fizz than the soda bottle. more than a hint, but not quite a presence, if you'll take my meaning. like a firm promise of carbonation to come. I'm going to open a glass bottle again tonight (it's tasty!) and every night until i get one with the carbonation level that I want - which is more than it has and less than the current soda bottle. Luckily, my wife has agreed to help me dispose of the trials properly! She likes what I made, but doesn't like apple juice... win?
 
I don't think you'll find much difference day to day, but who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. With my beer and cider I usually check one at around 2 weeks, then wait another week, then another if I need to until I deem it ready.
 
you were right. today's test bottle was functionally equivalent to yesterday's. i'll wait till tuesday or wednesday to try again.

also, bottled up my batch of honey, which turned into honey/pomegranate. can't wait till that one gets done!!
 
Hey man, my local home brew shops does a fair few ciders and have me the advice to let the bottles sit for around 2-3 months. 2 months in and the carbonation levels are joy.

I like your detailed approach, it's much like my own. I'm having struggles with the trade off between aroma, flavour and tart taste using a mad millie cider yeast. Starting to think Nottingham and US-05 is the worth trying. My brew shop recommend the US-06 yeast, wheat beer right, but apparently is lovely and fruity due to some unique yeast characteristics described on the packed.

Good luck.
 
Great documentation! I too am going through the same steps you are with my first cider, or because I added honey I was told it is now called a "Ciser"?? Can anyone validate that?

Anyhow, great thread! I am looking forward to your tasting notes/summary.

Cheers

-Adam
 
I'm thinking of starting another gallon batch, this time with little or no additional sugar in the primary to keep the abv down a bit and using Safale 04 yeast. Since I'm fermenting dry and backsweetening, additional sugar up front does little for the taste and seems to be useful only to get the alcohol content up.

I'm also thinking of starting a batch of hard lemonade, using the same yeast. It seems I've been bitten by the homebrewing bug ;)
 
Getting there - a test bottle tonight gave a small pop and the definite presence of bubbles. They didn't really survive pouring into a glass, but this is really encouraging. i'll do another test bottle tomorrow. I may just go ahead and pasteurize tomorrow...
 
second batch is already carbed. i'm going to pasteurized tonight. question: are bubbles in the bottles normal? They're not floaters, and there's not much in the bottles, and it looks more like the bubbles from yeast working... I opened one, no off aroma or flavors, so I think i'm ok, but it would be nice to have some confirmation of sorts.
 
ok pasteurization done. no bombs, but they're still cooling.

1) pre warmed bottles in ~110 degree water
2) brought water to between 176 and 182 degrees
3) put silicon pad in
4) slowly lowered bottles in
5) 10 minute timer
6) carefully remove bottles to a bin with a lid on it for cooling.


I got worried that I wasn't getting the job done. Depending on which of the two pots I used, the water got down to either 145ish or 155 ish at the end of 10 minutes. With the last batch of bottles in the pot that cooled the most, I put a bottle of water (loosely capped) in with the cider. At the end of 10 minutes, the bottle temp was ~160. it got down to about 150 after 3 minutes. The charts I've seen tell me that 30 seconds @ 155 would be more than enough to get the job done, so I'm pretty confident that I now have pasteurized, carbonated honey/pomegranate cider.


My first brown sugar batch STILL hasn't carbed enough to call it that. I'll try again in 3 days...
 
I would assume that getting the temperature above 150F would kill the yeast. Was the carbonation where you wanted it, or did you just decide it was time to pasteurize?

I was going to say stop opening bottles so often, but I understand that you're new to the process and want to pasteurize. It may be good to do some cider that goes completely dry just so you understand the timeline for that. But hey, you're learning and documenting well, so I'm not going to scold you :p
 
Both batches fermented completely dry. The brown sugar hasn't carbonated fully yet. The Honey/pomegranate batch carbonated PERFECTLY (for me) so I pasteurized that one tonight. I'm going to wait 3 or 4 days for the brown sugar batch to test again. it seems to be carbonating, but *very* slowly. It's also getting really, really smooth.

next up, another brown sugar batch to see if i can get it right and... hard lemonade at my wife's request. she's put up with so many of my wild ideas, it's an honor to fill this request for her :)
 
just pitched batch #3, which will eventually be a brown sugar batch. no additional sugar this time, just juice, nutrient, pectic enzyme, safale 04 and a bit of luck. going to bottle from primary this time, i think, if the taste is ok after backsweetening. Meant to toss in a portion of a cinnamon stick. /drats.
 
Ok, my very first batch not only carbonated, it OVER carbonated in the span of three days. It's been bottled since July 4th. I checked it on monday, flat as a board. Checked it again on thursday and... well... some were still flat, most were WAY WAY WAY too carbonated to drink and when I opened one I was honestly surprised the bottle didn't blow up in my hand. I ended up throwing away my last 6 bottles. I don't mind, though, I drank the majority of that batch just testing to see if it was carbed or not. I theorize that I had bad capping technique. On the overcarbed bottles, the caps were bent after removal. On the flat ones, they still looked perfect.

on a brighter note, pitched a batch of hard lemonade last night.
1 gallon of Simply Lemonade
1/2 pkg of EC-118 (I took a bit of sugar, nutrient and lemonade to start the yeast first)
1.5 tsp nutrient
1 cup lemonized vodka (I took the zest of one lemon, chopped it up and soaked it in vodka for about an hour)

it is currently bubbling merrily away in the basement as we speak.

3rd batch is done fermenting. i'll be bottling that Saturday! I need to work in some cinnamon flavor. I thought about using cinnamon oil or boiling some cinnamon sticks and using the water to melt the brown sugar I intend to use in backsweetening. Any thoughts?
 
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