Wyeast beer nutrient minerals

[michaeltrego]

I was curious as to what contribution the Wyeast beer nutrient has to the minerals that we typically track for water chemistry. So I posed the question via their website, and one of their microbiologists was very quick with a response – great customer service!

At the recommended usage rate of 1/2 tsp (2.2 grams) per 5 gallons (19 liters) of wort, or 0.116g/liter, the mineral concentrations are:

Calcium 0.696 ppb (virtually zero ppm)
Magnesium 0.928 ppm
Sodium N/A (not a part of any of the major ingredients)
Sulfate 13.920 ppm
Chloride N/A (not a part of any of the major ingredients)
Bicarbonate N/A

As well as:

Zinc 0.635 ppm
Manganese 0.567 ppm
Thiamine 0.241 ppm

So, the Sulfate may be the only thing you need to keep in check if you are tweaking your water.

 

[bobbrews]

So it appears that in some cases you could probably just use Gypsum in place of Yeast Nutrient.

 

[mabrungard]

The Zn and Mn concentrations seem a little high. Are you sure they reported those concentrations in ppm?

You are going to taste Mn at about 0.1 ppm (very metallic) and Zn starts to become toxic to yeast above 1 ppm. Zn is generally regarded as a yeast nutrient at about a third of the concentration reported above.

 

[michaeltrego]

The Zn and Mn concentrations seem a little high. Are you sure they reported those concentrations in ppm?

You are going to taste Mn at about 0.1 ppm (very metallic) and Zn starts to become toxic to yeast above 1 ppm. Zn is generally regarded as a yeast nutrient at about a third of the concentration reported above.

Yes, that's what they reported - here's a screenshot of the dialog with Wyeast:

 

[michaeltrego]

So it appears that in some cases you could probably just use Gypsum in place of Yeast Nutrient.

Gypsum isn't going to give you zinc and other components that seem to be the focus of the nutrient products. According to the Yeast book, all-malt wort contains all of the necessary yeast nutrients except oxygen and zinc.

 

[sjch]

Hi
i am a mineralogist with access to some moderately fancy equipment.
this thread caught my interest due to its subject line.

I took a sample of a 1+ year old wyeast nutrient blend bottle into what is called an X-ray diffractometer, which detects crystal structures.
Please note that the information below is only for information purposes. I am in no way related to wyeast so they are the only ones knowing exactly what they put inside... I did this analysis out of personal interest and thought it would be nice to share.

The major mineral phases I found in the sample were:
Mascagnite (NH4)2SO4 (ammonium sulphate)
Phosphammite (NH4)2HPO4 (ammonium hydrogen phosphate)
Hexahydrite MgSO4*6H2O (hydrated magnesium sulphate)

These three minerals made the bulk part of the subsample I took from the yeast nutrient.
In addition there were minor amounts of these phases:
Szmikite MnSO4*H2O (manganese sulphate hydrate)
Spencerite Zn4(PO4)2(OH)2*3H2O (a hydrated zinc phosphate hydroxide)
Bianchite ZnSO4*6H2O (hydrated zinc phosphate)
Gregoryite Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate)
Monohydrocalcite (CaCO3*0,65H2O)


These lists are by no means meant to be conclusive, there might be other phases present I didnt detect and the subsample might not be respresentative of what bulk wyeast nutrient blend is made out of.

So basically a bunch of phosphates and sulphates, and a little bit of carbonates.
It gives an idea of where the different cations reported are coming from.

I think a good conclusion here is that
- no you cannot just use gypsum as a replacement (Ca2SO4*2H2O) because it doesnt contain nitrogen, zinc, manganese etc...
- these chemical components are hard to come by otherwise (at least in my part of the world) and therefore buying it commercially is generally a good idea, all the more because those people know exactly what they are mixing in which proportions for what reason after all, we are talking chemical getting into beer we drink.

As for the high manganese and zinc values compared to the the threshold values for taste and toxicity, one should remember that a yeast starter is usually decanted (to some extent) and diluted with at least 5 gallons of wort. the fermented wort from a yeast starter indeed doesnt taste all that good.

happy fermenting everyone
cheers

 

[mabrungard]

Hi
As for the high manganese and zinc values compared to the the threshold values for taste and toxicity, one should remember that a yeast starter is usually decanted (to some extent) and diluted with at least 5 gallons of wort. the fermented wort from a yeast starter indeed doesnt taste all that good.

Good point. Unfortunately the information in the OP suggests that Wyeast is advocating adding the nutrient at this rate in a full 5 gallon batch of beer. Reviewing my vial of this product, I confirm that Wyeast is telling users to add that amount to the kettle before flameout.

I'm not suggesting that the OP was incorrect in the concentrations reported. I was questioning the values quoted by Wyeast. Given the relatively high values, I have great concern with what they have quoted. If those values are correct, I'll have to reevaluate if I use this product.

 

[michaeltrego]

Hi
i am a mineralogist with access to some moderately fancy equipment.
this thread caught my interest due to its subject line.

I took a sample of a 1+ year old wyeast nutrient blend bottle into what is called an X-ray diffractometer, which detects crystal structures.

Nice! - is there an easy way to determine the ppm with your apparatus?

 

[michaeltrego]

Given the relatively high values, I have great concern with what they have quoted. If those values are correct, I'll have to reevaluate if I use this product.

I was reading a few papers (one, two) on the subject and they appear to propose that Zn concentrations of 0.5 to 1 ppm are the sweet spot for yeast health. And that Zn doesn't become toxic to the yeast until well into the double (even triple) digit ppm as long as Mn levels are sufficient to balance.

The Mn level in the nutrient does seem to be higher than desirable. Some of the EPA/State guidelines for drinking water recommend 0.05 - 0.84 ppm max. There were some scary warnings about neurological damage from high levels of Mn.

 

[sjch]

Nice! - is there an easy way to determine the ppm with your apparatus?

no, that would require different analytical techniques

 

[sjch]

The Mn level in the nutrient does seem to be higher than desirable. Some of the EPA/State guidelines for drinking water recommend 0.05 - 0.84 ppm max. There were some scary warnings about neurological damage from high levels of Mn.

Those metals, like Zn and Mn, are added at the mentioned concentrations to beer wort as nutrition to the beer yeast. Yeast takes up these metals in their cell structures for a variety of reasons. The final concentrations of Zn and Mn in beer after fermentation would be much lower than the numbers you are worried about, I believe (although I am no microbiologist).

This article
http://www.ftb.com.hr/42/42-115.pdf
describes how much of these metals yeast incorporated under a variety of experimental conditions.
Note figure 4a-b-c