West Sixth start up brewery being sued by Magic Hat parent company over logo

[ArkotRamathorn]

the litmus test about mistakenly buying one product instead of the other is only 1 method of determining infringement

a customer drawing an association or assumption that the products are related or from the same company is also a factor

they are both in the exact same industry and now in the same markets doesn't help the case of W6th nor does the fact that MH has preceded them in the industry by 20 years

I should have put a disclaimer on what I was saying from the very beginning. I'm not arguing the legality of the lawsuit. I am arguing the logical-lity (yes, I said it) of the lawsuit (yes, it is Logical for MH to sue). But from a consumer standpoint, it just looks like a bigger richer guy is starting a lawyer slap fest with a smaller less rich guy.

 

[temple240]

This thread is now functionally retarded. Is anyone here a patent lawyer? Has anyone here studied patent law for more than the 5 minutes it took to google "patent law"? If not, then this is all a moot point. Everybody was equally pitchforky when Bells sent a cease and desist letter to northern brewer a while back.

A judge will settle this. That is all that matters. If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I will avoid it since they cried on Facebook about this and tried to smear another brewery's name in the mud. Yes, Magic Hat is a bigger company, but they still have the right and the DUTY to defend their product trademark!

If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I'll buy twice as much as I normally would have to make up for what you didn't buy. (Not really)

This thread obviously has no significance to the lawsuit but it has made for some entertaining beer related reading that fits this forum nicely. Let the retardation continue! (at least it's functional)

 

[forstmeister]

If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I'll buy twice as much as I normally would have to make up for what you didn't buy. (Not really)

This thread obviously has no significance to the lawsuit but it has made for some entertaining beer related reading that fits this forum nicely. Let the retardation continue! (at least it's functional)

I'm not normally retarded, but when I am I am fully functional!

-the most interesting man in the world

 

[bovineblitz]

I should have put a disclaimer on what I was saying from the very beginning. I'm not arguing the legality of the lawsuit. I am arguing the logical-lity (yes, I said it) of the lawsuit (yes, it is Logical for MH to sue). But from a consumer standpoint, it just looks like a bigger richer guy is starting a lawyer slap fest with a smaller less rich guy.

How is that a consumer standpoint? It just seems naive.

 

[rexbanner]

Hate to say this but the logos look pretty similar. Not saying I would sue, but I can see why someone might.

Monster energy drink suing that Vermont brewery that made a beer called Vermonster was bull****, though.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

How is that a consumer standpoint? It just seems naive.

As a consumer of craft beer, I see Magic Hat, a company whose beer I've seen in stores here in north central Wisconsin. Is suing a another company, who I haven't heard of until now, and whose beer I've never seen in stores here in Wisconsin...

I fail to see how this is naive when I see one companys beer, thats over thousand miles away from me, is in stores near me, and the beer from a company thats 500 miles closer, isnt in stores near me.

It might be elitist of me to side with smaller companies sure, but I don't see how its naive to take things into consideration like a larger company litigating against a smaller company and their distance/availability/profits into consideration.

I've said already that they're perfectly within their rights to sue. I can see where the confusion and lawsuit is coming from, I'm not saying the logos arent similar. The reason I get up in arms about this is my personal thought is, as a consumer, I wouldn't buy one or the other because I thought the W6th is a Magic Hat beer.

 

[Mb2658]

Oh I agree that the marks are similar. My argument is that #9 is crap beer and so I don't understand why someone would go out of their way to copy the logo from a crappy beer. On the other side of the coin, I personally think that the West 6th mark lacks creativity. That in and of itself doesn't make it an infringing mark. I have done some work with counterfeit marks and confusingly similar products. The courts apply a 13 factor test. For those of you who are interested, this article explains it better. http://www.jdsupra.com/documents/a3a17e09-01de-4ead-b820-e75373997560.pdf I don't see myself buying either beer any time soon.

 

[bovineblitz]

As a consumer of craft beer, I see Magic Hat, a company whose beer I've seen in stores here in north central Wisconsin. Is suing a another company, who I haven't heard of until now, and whose beer I've never seen in stores here in Wisconsin...

I fail to see how this is naive when I see one companys beer, thats over thousand miles away from me, is in stores near me, and the beer from a company thats 500 miles closer, isnt in stores near me.

It might be elitist of me to side with smaller companies sure, but I don't see how its naive to take things into consideration like a larger company litigating against a smaller company and their distance/availability/profits into consideration.

I've said already that they're perfectly within their rights to sue. I can see where the confusion and lawsuit is coming from, I'm not saying the logos arent similar. The reason I get up in arms about this is my personal thought is, as a consumer, I wouldn't buy one or the other because I thought the W6th is a Magic Hat beer.

I don't see how you make the connection between being a consumer of beer and then making the assumption that the bigger brewery is just throwing their weight around. It's naive to side with "the little guy" just because they're the little guy. That literally has nothing to do with it, it just happens to be the case. Of course bigger companies are going to tend to sue more, they already have logos, success, and market presence that can potentially be taken advantage of, purposely or accidentally.

 

[Mongrel]

Breaking News: the one guy that accidentally bought a West Sixth IPA instead of a Magic Hat #9 is suing HBT for libel on account of being repeatedly referred to as a moron

The moron's case is without merit because he actually walked out with some Shock Top.

 

[hillybilly]

The moron's case is without merit because he actually walked out with some Shock Top.

drunken moron

 

[awarner322]

http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/0ab90552-225c-4a77-bf2e-79ecdcd09c15

 

[abledsoe]

I understand the argument that it's wise for MH to defend it's IP now (and in all cases). There is some similarity between the two but I don't think they are close enough to warrant a lawsuit. The argument via social media is getting a little annoying. But, what I think looks so bad on MH is trying to sue WS for all profits, that's where it crosses into corporate bullying for me. Obviously WS is very new and probably still struggling to find it's place and get going. (The same journey several people from this site have taken, both successfully and unsuccessfully.) If WS really refuses to work with MH and court is the only option, then just do it to get the judge to say you MUST change it. Not, change it and give me all your money.

I am from Kentucky and really like WS's beer. I made the hour+ drive one day to check out their brewery/taproom and met one of the owners who was serving beers. He was beyond friendly to us and was more than happy to chat about beer. I just hope when all is said and done that they survive this and can return their focus to brewing beer and growing their operation.

Also, it appears several bars and restaurants around the state are dropping MH from their offerings as a showing of support for WS. We went out to dinner tonight and they were using WS coasters for drinks and had scratched MH off their beer list.

 

[GoodDogShelby]

This thread is now functionally retarded. Is anyone here a patent lawyer? Has anyone here studied patent law for more than the 5 minutes it took to google "patent law"? If not, then this is all a moot point. Everybody was equally pitchforky when Bells sent a cease and desist letter to northern brewer a while back.

A judge will settle this. That is all that matters. If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I will avoid it since they cried on Facebook about this and tried to smear another brewery's name in the mud. Yes, Magic Hat is a bigger company, but they still have the right and the DUTY to defend their product trademark!

So because we are not patent lawyers, we can't have our own opinions and discuss this in a public forum? Really? If you don't want to read others opinions or purchase W6th, that is your prerogative and I support your right to do so. Don't, however belittle the rest of us for having and for voicing an opinion. BTW, the point is not "moot". It has not been settled.

I do agree with your point that a company has to defend their brand. However, they also have to recognize that in doing so they may alienate the very people they are hoping to purchase their products in the first place.

On a personal note, I have a color blind, dyslexic friend with a lazy eye who is really upset by this whole discussion.

 

[Misplaced_Canuck]

Free publicity for both. Perhaps good for W6 and not so good for MH.

Either way I still think that W6 is moronic for having a similar logo to start with. I have zero sympathy for them.

I still will not drink beers from either.

MC

 

[hillybilly]

This thread is now functionally retarded. Is anyone here a patent lawyer? Has anyone here studied patent law for more than the 5 minutes it took to google "patent law"? If not, then this is all a moot point. Everybody was equally pitchforky when Bells sent a cease and desist letter to northern brewer a while back.

A judge will settle this. That is all that matters. If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I will avoid it since they cried on Facebook about this and tried to smear another brewery's name in the mud. Yes, Magic Hat is a bigger company, but they still have the right and theDUTY to defend their product trademark!

First off this has nothing to do with a patemt it is trade mark infringement we are allowed our opinions and how we spend our money

 

[forstmeister]

First off this has nothing to do with a patemt it is trade mark infringement we are allowed our opinions and how we spend our money

Fine, trademark. I knew I was getting that part wrong, but it was too late to change it. Either way we can all have an opinion. The only opinion that matters is the judge who settles the matter in court. Or maybe it gets settled first. Either way I have no urge to go to Kentucky so I probably won't buy west sixth anyway.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

Well that's essentially just hearsay. According to the Magic Hat side W6 acted like petty children and gave them the run around.

As are your counter arguments and opinion of West Sixth. That doesn't make either of either of us correct.

As for calling a small brewery "petty children," have you ever owned a business or worked for a small business? I have. My family has owned more than one.

Coming up with the money you need to defend yourself in a court case of this nature is nearly impossible for a fledgling business. They're not being petty children. They're exercising the only option left to them: the bully pulpit. Exposing Magic Hat's dirty game publicly is an effective tactic whether or not you agree with it.

The claim is likely NOT without merit, especially if distributors expressed concern independently. Look at those two tap handles a couple posts up, they're pretty similar from a reasonable distance. Even if W6 didn't intentionally use a similar design if it's deemed to be similar then they have a problem.

If we can believe W6 - I do - their lawyers say it's without merit. I'm not a lawyer, are you?

I feel like you didn't read all the articles if you think that Magic Hat didn't try to resolve it out of court.

And I feel like you're going to be completely intransigent on your support of Magic Hat and interpret things to support your view. Fair enough. That's your right.

We will see if they resolve it out of court, or if I will be donating to their legal defense fund. Time will tell.

Grimy. Trying to rally public opinion rather than actually be correct and justified.

It's kinda comical that they think signatures and random people's opinions actually matter when the **** hits the fan.

Well according to W6, it did open the lines of communication after 3 months of silence. Which do you think is more important to Magic Hat: getting an obscure logo changed and confiscating all of a small brewery's profits or generating tons of negative publicity?

I should have put a disclaimer on what I was saying from the very beginning. I'm not arguing the legality of the lawsuit. I am arguing the logical-lity (yes, I said it) of the lawsuit (yes, it is Logical for MH to sue). But from a consumer standpoint, it just looks like a bigger richer guy is starting a lawyer slap fest with a smaller less rich guy.

This is also my take on it. Yes, MH is within their legal rights to file a lawsuit. But West Sixth is also within their legal rights to make that lawsuit a public matter.

How is that a consumer standpoint? It just seems naive.

I don't see how you make the connection between being a consumer of beer and then making the assumption that the bigger brewery is just throwing their weight around. It's naive to side with "the little guy" just because they're the little guy. That literally has nothing to do with it, it just happens to be the case. Of course bigger companies are going to tend to sue more, they already have logos, success, and market presence that can potentially be taken advantage of, purposely or accidentally.

And I don't see how you can think that such a small brewery is actually doing damage to Magic Hat's brand, nor can I see how you'd think Magic Hat's demands for reparation are even reasonable. But I support your ability to make your own decisions regardless.

 

[organ]

It seems like the vast majority of these posts are just forms of logical fallacies, whether you like the product or think it's garbage, that has no bearrings what-so-ever on whether they claim about intellecual property has any merit. After reading the whole thread I see that a good number of people, myself included, think that there is a definite similarity to the logo. While it may not be identical, as someone raised the point earlier, would it pass the moron test? Would someone with no knowledge of the beer other than seeing a logo while running into the store, looking for #9 grab the 6 by accident? I would bet it has happened at least a few times. While it would be hard to claim irreparable harm, if MH takes a panel of 100 of non-beer drinkers and asks them to identify the #9 and they can show that at least some of them picked the wrong beer they could make the arguement that that percent of the population equals the damage claim since every "confused customer" could be considered revue loss. Regardless, I wouldn't want to be West Sixth.

Is that what's wrong with America? We gotta run everything by morons before making decisions now?

 

[Clonefan94]

HAHA, this thread I was always following on my phone. So, the pictures never really showed up that well. Now today, seeing this on a large monitor, I have to retract my previous statements. I never saw the starburst inside the #9. Seeing that made me immediately think, "What were they trying to pull with that?" Seeing them large, I can see a distinct similarity between the two. And it sounds like Magic hat really only wanted them to get rid of that. Sounds like West 6th thought, "Smear campaign." Good way to drum up some publicity and get everyone feeling for the little guy. I'm actually not so sure now, that they didn't have this idea from the beginning. Tough to see MAgic Hat go for this, but it looks like West 6th said, "Worst case scenario with this logo, is no one says anything."

 

[bovineblitz]

As are your counter arguments and opinion of West Sixth. That doesn't make either of either of us correct.

As for calling a small brewery "petty children," have you ever owned a business or worked for a small business? I have. My family has owned more than one.

There's a touch of subtlety in them words.

Coming up with the money you need to defend yourself in a court case of this nature is nearly impossible for a fledgling business. They're not being petty children. They're exercising the only option left to them: the bully pulpit. Exposing Magic Hat's dirty game publicly is an effective tactic whether or not you agree with it.

So don't put yourself in a position where you need to defend yourself. It's pretty damn easy to avoid. And don't cry to the public and escalate the conflict when the copyright holder contacted you trying to reach a solution.

If we can believe W6 - I do - their lawyers say it's without merit. I'm not a lawyer, are you?

No, but I am capable of logic and have more than one friend who deals with copyright law. This type of thing is not unfamiliar to me.

And I feel like you're going to be completely intransigent on your support of Magic Hat and interpret things to support your view. Fair enough. That's your right.

Pot and kettle. I don't drink Magic Hat and haven't in a long time, I don't have a stake in either side. It just so happens that they're going to win in court when it comes to it, and I'm stating my opinions on the case.

We will see if they resolve it out of court, or if I will be donating to their legal defense fund. Time will tell.

Well according to W6, it did open the lines of communication after 3 months of silence. Which do you think is more important to Magic Hat: getting an obscure logo changed and confiscating all of a small brewery's profits or generating tons of negative publicity?

I think Magic hat is concerned with brand confusion, especially since distributors independently expressed concern. Thousands upon thousands of dollars get put into branding, and it's their duty to protect their brand.

This is also my take on it. Yes, MH is within their legal rights to file a lawsuit. But West Sixth is also within their legal rights to make that lawsuit a public matter.

Sure. West Sixth is within their rights to start multiple anti-Magic Hat websites and smear campaigns rather than settle the matter via logic and reason. Just like seventh graders have the right to cyber bully, broadcast their bull**** on facebook, and generally act like children. Just go look at their facebook page, it's pathetic. It looks like it's run by a middle schooler.

And I don't see how you can think that such a small brewery is actually doing damage to Magic Hat's brand, nor can I see how you'd think Magic Hat's demands for reparation are even reasonable. But I support your ability to make your own decisions regardless.

Logical fallacy, that's a small piece of the puzzle. The size of the brewery is irrelevant, you're just letting your emotions play into it. The demands for reparation are likely 1) because W6 went all internet attack mode on them and they're pissed, 2) because when you ask for damages in court, you often ask for more than you really deserve so you get what you actually deserve, like haggling, and 3) to make a demand that's obviously unacceptable to W6 to let them know how serious Magic Hat is.

 

[Monster Mash]

Here is some sound advice, I went to the Craft Brewers Conference and they repeated this a few times....

http://drinkwiththewench.com/2013/05/breweries-keep-your-legal-battles-off-of-social-media/

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

So don't put yourself in a position where you need to defend yourself. It's pretty damn easy to avoid. And don't cry to the public and escalate the conflict when the copyright holder contacted you trying to reach a solution.

You are assuming that they willfully infringed, and the infringement hasn't even been proven. And through that assumption, you think the case is open and closed. Nobody really knows aside from W6 and their graphic designer how they came to their design. Nobody in their right mind would say "just copy X brewery's design." Perhaps they're out of their minds, but we'll never know.

It just so happens that they're going to win in court when it comes to it, and I'm stating my opinions on the case.

And your ability to see into the future. Neat!

Logical fallacy, that's a small piece of the puzzle. The size of the brewery is irrelevant, you're just letting your emotions play into it. The demands for reparation are likely 1) because W6 went all internet attack mode on them and they're pissed, 2) because when you ask for damages in court, you often ask for more than you really deserve so you get what you actually deserve, like haggling, and 3) to make a demand that's obviously unacceptable to W6 to let them know how serious Magic Hat is.

And your feelings on the public nature of this dispute are obviously not playing into your responses.

It is not a small piece of the puzzle when you claim irreparable harm. They don't distribute nationally, and therefore there's no way that it actually harmed Magic Hat's brand "irreparably." I'd love to see that claim proven. It likely cannot be. Oracle had a better chance of proving irreparable harm to their Java programming language and virtual machine from Google's own implementation, yet that didn't work out either.

Your argument keeps going back to them taking this publicly, which you obviously don't like. If we're talking about tactics in legal disputes, it seems to me that West Sixth is simply exercising a different tactic than expensively attempting to fight this in court. A similar tactic has worked before with US presidents and an uncooperative Congress, so why wouldn't it work for West Sixth?

It would be stupid of them to do otherwise. I wouldn't play someone else's dirty game, and neither should they.

 

[bovineblitz]

You are assuming that they willfully infringed, and the infringement hasn't even been proven. And through that assumption, you think the case is open and closed. Nobody really knows aside from W6 and their graphic designer how they came to their design. Nobody in their right mind would say "just copy X brewery's design." Perhaps they're out of their minds, but we'll never know.

It doesn't matter if it's willful or not. Infringement is infringement.

And your feelings on the public nature of this dispute are obviously not playing into your responses.

It is not a small piece of the puzzle when you claim irreparable harm. They don't distribute nationally, and therefore there's no way that it actually harmed Magic Hat's brand "irreparably." I'd love to see that claim proven. It likely cannot be. Oracle had a better chance of proving irreparable harm to their Java programming language and virtual machine from Google's own implementation, yet that didn't work out either.

Your argument keeps going back to them taking this publicly, which you obviously don't like. If we're talking about tactics in legal disputes, it seems to me that West Sixth is simply exercising a different tactic than expensively attempting to fight this in court. A similar tactic has worked before with US presidents and an uncooperative Congress, so why wouldn't it work for West Sixth?

It would be stupid of them to do otherwise. I wouldn't play someone else's dirty game, and neither should they.

Public support doesn't actually matter. The cases put forth by the lawyers matter. Irrepairable harm is only one piece of the lawsuit, there's other criteria to consider as well. If I were Magic Hat, and their perspective is to believed as it was posted in that article, I'd put forth every legal threat I had whether it's likely to hold up or not. The case in general looks to be legitimate, the details will be worked out in court if/when it comes to it.

Politics is entirely different, those are elected officials. Public officials. This is business. And I'm confused by your dirty game comment, the clean game is to either settle or argue in court. Not to cry on facebook.

 

[rexbanner]

I run a nanobrewery. My previous employer was a local business owner who fired me for putting a small scratch in my work van on the job, and then tried to withhold 1K in wages from me as punishment. When I calmly but assertively told her this was wrong and illegal, she told me she was going to smear my name all over town. She is very active in the local business scene.

That type of behavior is reallllly stupid. I would never make this stuff public (kinda am here but whatever). Having a fight on Facebook is just really immature. Even if you're right. No one wants to hear this negativity and nastiness. Don't air your dirty laundry in public, that's basic etiquette and applies doubly to business. I'm only 25 and I know this.

 

[davekippen]

It's trademarked by Magic Hat.

Haaaaaahahahahah

This whole thing is ridiculous. That logo is nothing like the magic hat one. I spent 15 years in commercial printing and have seen more logos than I care to remember.

 

[rexbanner]

Haaaaaahahahahah

This whole thing is ridiculous. That logo is nothing like the magic hat one. I spent 15 years in commercial printing and have seen more logos than I care to remember.

I think you spent too long in the industry :cross: They do kinda look alike, at least to myself and distributors who were the ones who brought it up with Magic Hat.

You can read more about the story here: http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/0ab90552-225c-4a77-bf2e-79ecdcd09c15

That is Magic Hat's side of it. From the responses on West Sixth's Facebook I am sort of inclined to believe Magic Hat. This isn't what this thread is portraying it as.

 

[davekippen]

They are both round and have a number in them. So what. I could probably do a google search and find a hundred more.

 

[davekippen]

3 of the biggest automakers in the world. 3 of the biggest brands. All oval logos *gasp*! I dont recall any fights here?

Silly.

 

[tagz]

3 of the biggest automakers in the world. 3 of the biggest brands. All oval logos *gasp*! I dont recall any fights here?

Silly.

"In January 2, 2003, Toyota instituted a lawsuit in the court against Geely and two car dealers in Beijing for trademark infringement and unfair competition. Toyota alleged that the logo of Geely's Merry modal car was confusingly similar to the logo of Toyota, for which Toyota obtained trademark registration in China in 1990"

 

[davekippen]

This one would make sense to me. If you tell me that these 2 logos, and the Magic Hat / West Sixth have the same level of similarity, I will lose my sh*t LOL

 

[derbycitybrewer]

As a fellow Kentuckian I am supporting my local breweries and not drinking magic hat ever again. Support your local breweries!!!! Sign the petition.

 

[CGVT]

West Six should be sued for having a stupid logo...

(and yes, it looks a hell of a lot like MH's)

 

[Cincy17]

West Six should be sued for having a stupid logo...

(and yes, it looks a hell of a lot like MH's)

If you didn't have over 1000 posts, I would swear you were trolling.

 

[Retire2016]

3 of the biggest automakers in the world. 3 of the biggest brands. All oval logos *gasp*! I dont recall any fights here?

Maybe they just kept their fights private and off the internet?

 

[forstmeister]

As a fellow Kentuckian I am supporting my local breweries and not drinking magic hat ever again. Support your local breweries!!!! Sign the petition.

It's all well and good to support local breweries. It doesn't mean that you have to hate any other competing companies though. This unfortunately public battle is making both companies look small and petty.

 

[dukerutledge]

Just to throw some more b.s. on the fire. One of West Sixth's founders worked handling the social media presence of a Vermont politician while he lived up here. I'm not a huge fan of Magic Hat, but I understand their need to protect their intellectual property. This whole thing is just a poorly architected social media campaign built on a David and Goliath archetype. West sixth should just get over it and move on to making beer instead of enemies.

 

[zmanzorro]

From the West Sixth website:

West Sixth & Magic Hat

The parties have a mutual interest in assuring that consumers perceive their products as distinct.

The parties have mutually resolved the issues addressed in the lawsuit in a manner that eliminates potential confusion about product origin and resolves the lawsuit in a mutually acceptable way.

To the extent West Sixth in any way represented that Magic Hat filed a frivolous lawsuit, that Magic Hat initiated litigation improperly, that Magic Hat was unresponsive in negotiating a resolution, that Cerveceria Costa Rica was itself involved in the dispute or its resolution, that Magic Hat claimed ownership of the numeral 6, that Magic Hat sued West Sixth after West Sixth had already acceded to its demands, that Magic Hat has no Vermont presence, or that Magic Hat sought to recover for or enjoin West Sixth from truthful public statements, such representations are retracted. West Sixth regrets that it in any manner communicated any inaccuracies, and hereby corrects those errors.

Both Magic Hat and West Sixth have agreed that this joint statement will be the last public communication from either side regarding the resolved dispute.

Each wishes the other good fortune and continued success.

Looks like we won't be able to see any more of their shenanigans ...

 

[bovineblitz]

From the West Sixth website:



Looks like we won't be able to see any more of their shenanigans ...

Shocker.

Knew this would be the outcome. The middle schooler temper tantrum is over.

 

[downtown3641]

West sixth should just get over it and move on to making beer instead of enemies.

Couldn't the same be said of Magic Hat?

 

[hillybilly]

they had to remove the compass from their logo seems like a win for west sixth and I am guessing that magic hat lost some customers and west sixth gained