West Sixth start up brewery being sued by Magic Hat parent company over logo

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terrapinj said:
magic hat has every right and is required to protect their trademark - I just don't feel it's necessary to post public (snarky) responses back and forth
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From the letters Magic Hat posted, 6th demonstrated a willingness to work together and change their logo. Magic Hat made the decision to sever communication and file the lawsuit. I don't think a public response to that is out of line.
 
ktblunden said:
From the letters Magic Hat posted, 6th demonstrated a willingness to work together and change their logo. Magic Hat made the decision to sever communication and file the lawsuit. I don't think a public response to that is out of line.
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and according to Magic Hat

After months of working with them, they abruptly changed their minds and refused to take the simplest steps to avoid confusion and a lawsuit
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as I said, it's mostly he said she said at this point
 
There are certain things that shouldn't be allowed to be copywrited at all. #9 or any # plus actual number combination should be out of bounds. That should be considered public domain no matter what. If not, I need to hurry up and TM #1, so I can start suing the foam finger people.
 
I think they are pretty similar. Same type set on 6 and 9, surrounded by circle, and accented by a compass design. I also think West Sixth is blowing it up for publicity. I'm sure they could have settled it pretty easily. Magic Hat makes pretty crappy beer, but I would side with them on this one. I'm not convinced that West Sixth didn't see the similarity when they were designing it in the first place.
 
I have only read one article from each point of view so I won't be signing any petitions until it is very clear to me who is in the wrong.
It seems, however, that Magic Hat was initially getting upset about something that shouldn't affect their sales and image at all. But it is also pretty obvious that West Sixth has launched a full scale smear campaign against Magic Hat.
Neither of these are particularly mature or professional things to do.
 
The way I see it is MH made a stink over a minor similarity.

West Sixth initially was talking with them about settling...then one of the marketing guys saw an opportunity to capitalize on the free publicity and things changed in a hurry.

I am not siding with either as I think both tactics are pretty slimey.
 
Sounds like they just don't agree and they are leveraging the public's tendency to be all anti-corporate about stuff like this and support the underdog (or underbeer?). It's also free advertising for the 'underbeer' brewery, so I'm reserving judgement, and not drinking either beer. One reason is because I can't get the one beer and the other reason is because I just don't like MH beers. They can both go and waste their money in court. I'll go and drink.

EDIT: I licked the labels, but they both tasted the same!!! I'm suing!
 
IANAL, but... I do think that trademark infringement is at least a somewhat interesting topic. In this case, as far as I can reasonably tell, MH has absolutely no standing if any lawsuit were to be filed.

There's a legal precedent that is standard in English law, but has been cited in trademark disagreements in both Canada and the US, and that is the moron in a hurry argument. The idea behind it is that a brand's trademark is considered to be infringed if someone who isn't paying much attention (and who may be a person of... underwhelming mental prowess) can mistakenly pick one item up from the store, when actually intending to pick the other item up.

Obviously, this argument pops up a lot for cheap "store-brand" knock-off products, like the cola drinks you see at the supermarket. Those products are intentionally made to substitute for actual Coke or Pepsi, and are marketed as such.

In the case of West Sixth beer, no one - not even a moron in a hurry - would mistake one for the other. Because of that, I don't believe it should matter if both logos happen to contain numbers located within some sort of circular border, and both just happen to have eight-pointed-star figures somewhere within said border. If you place the two logos next to one another and analyze them, you could point out similarities all day long, but that doesn't mean that either company has grounds for a trademark infringement case.

This case has all the hallmarks of corporate bullying. MH knows that West 6th can't afford a lawsuit, and they're trying to buy them out of existence with their expensive New York legal team. I can't blame West 6th for publicizing this - I would too, if I were them. Selling extra beer is the only way they could afford to fight anything in court, and if they're going down, they might as well take the bully down with them. I see no reason that West 6th should give in to any of the demands of MH, and they were generous to make the changes that they did.

But again, IANAL.
 
Varmintman said:
And this thread is why I refuse to drink craft beer and stick with the good BMC.
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I'm trying to understand the logic of this statement, but since I live on earth, I've got nothing.
 
drainbamage said:
Craft brewers also collaborate with each other quite a bit. BMC usually buys out or pursues litigation against what they see as possible threats.
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as a matter of fact West Sixth Street did collaborate with Country Boy brewing and they created a beer that both sold during Lexington Craft Beer week
 
bovineblitz said:
Why would you make a judgement without learning the real story first?

http://new.pitchengine.com/pitches/0ab90552-225c-4a77-bf2e-79ecdcd09c15
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I don't think any of us know the real story. No matter what is posted on the Internet. I still maintain that Magic Hat's complaint is silly and pedantic. Instead of trying to make good publicity over this, they resorted to complaining about a vaguely similar looking logo. Plus, I still don't like MH stuff.
 
passedpawn said:
Anyone ever wonder if two very wily creative marketing people in two brewing companies got together and created the controversy just for publicity?
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If that was true, Magic Hat should fire their guy, but looking at both companies Facebook pages, it has worked out well for West Sixth.

My favorite posts so far have been on similarities between Magic Hat's an other products. Maybe Mountain Dew will sue them over their Cucumber Hibiscus Ale logo. Then maybe Oskar Blues can sue West Sixth for putting words around the top of the can.
 
Mongrel said:
If that was true, Magic Hat should fire their guy, but looking at both companies Facebook pages, it has worked out well for West Sixth.

My favorite posts so far have been on similarities between Magic Hat's an other products. Maybe Mountain Dew will sue them over their Cucumber Hibiscus Ale logo. Then maybe Oskar Blues can sue West Sixth for putting words around the top of the can.
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Yeah, if this was some sort of collaborative viral marketing campaign or whatever, the gains seem pretty lopsided towards West Sixth. Or should I say, West Inverted-Ninth.
 
Mongrel said:
If that was true, Magic Hat should fire their guy, but looking at both companies Facebook pages, it has worked out well for West Sixth.

My favorite posts so far have been on similarities between Magic Hat's an other products. Maybe Mountain Dew will sue them over their Cucumber Hibiscus Ale logo. Then maybe Oskar Blues can sue West Sixth for putting words around the top of the can.
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So would you have been talking about Magic Hat without this controversy? They were not in my mind until this came up. I think you guys don't appreciate publicity.
 
Cincy17 said:
They want to claim that West Sixth stole their logo, but the logo for their cucumber hibiscus looks an awful lot like a certain soft drink logo.

Quite a few bars in Lexington and even up here in Cincinnati have already pulled Magic Hat from their offerings.

View attachment 123581
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That sounds like the worst beer ever conceived.
 
tyzippers said:
I don't think any of us know the real story. No matter what is posted on the Internet. I still maintain that Magic Hat's complaint is silly and pedantic. Instead of trying to make good publicity over this, they resorted to complaining about a vaguely similar looking logo. Plus, I still don't like MH stuff.
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Every time something like this comes up people freak out over the big bad successful brewery screwing over the 'little guy'. There's this whole protecting your patents and brand thing that goes over everyone's heads.
 
passedpawn said:
So would you have been talking about Magic Hat without this controversy?
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I likely would not have been talking about them unless it was regarding how much I truly disliked # 9 which does come up in social circles from time to time. It was one of the only three beers I've dumped down the sink in the last two years.
 
Stauffbier said:
I likely would not have been talking about them unless it was regarding how much I truly disliked # 9 which does come up in social circles from time to time. It was one of the only three beers I've dumped down the sink in the last two years.
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haha. I also can't stand #9, and that's the only beer I've ever had by them. But here we are, talking about Magic Hat.
 
I get the trademark and protecting your brand, but that logo just isn't that close. And I've stopped drinking Magic Hat long ago because their product is inferior, had I liked it I would stop drinking it because of this though.
 
bovineblitz said:
Every time something like this comes up people freak out over the big bad successful brewery screwing over the 'little guy'. There's this whole protecting your patents and brand thing that goes over everyone's heads.
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Except that isn't actually what's happening here.

See, as I sort-of alluded to in my other post, when someone is suing over a trademark violation, there usually has to be some sort of "lost profits" claim. Magic Hat must be able to claim that their profits have in some way been damaged by West Sixth's logo. They can't simply sue because someone else's logo looks vaguely similar.

Think of the "moron in a hurry" argument. Mountain Dew is unlikely to sue Magic Hat over their cucumber hibiscus logo, because a moron in a hurry wouldn't mistake cucumber hibiscus for mountain dew. One is a beer, and comes in bottles in the beer section of the store, and the other is a highly-recognizable soda that comes in bright green cans arranged in boxes. So despite the overt similarities in the logo design, Mountain Dew would have a losing argument in the courts, because they wouldn't be able to prove damages.

Furthermore, if Mountain Dew did try to sue Magic Hat, Magic Hat would fight back. It would be costly for both companies, and no one would win. On the other hand, if this case goes to court, West Sixth, being a small, young brewery, probably couldn't afford the legal fees. Therefore, even though Magic Hat almost certainly couldn't prove damages, that doesn't matter. Magic Hat is assuming that this won't go to court, because West Sixth is more likely to fold than to hire a decent lawyer.
 
I didn't see the reason for the lawsuit until I saw this image:


images.jpeg
 
mtnagel said:
Because those look completely different to me. I would never mistake one for the other.
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I agree... They are nothing alike. Magic Hat is just being *****ey.

They are vastly different colors, #9* looks a lot different than 6*, and there's all sorts of wiggly crap on the Magic Hat.

Stoopid.
 
Sorry, I posted the wrong pic. Here's a better one. I'm not trying to defend Magic Hat here, but all things considered, I think they look pretty similar. You and I would know the difference but people that don't really know a lot about beer could easily mistake the two... like my Mom for example.

MHWS.jpg
 
bovineblitz said:
Every time something like this comes up people freak out over the big bad successful brewery screwing over the 'little guy'. There's this whole protecting your patents and brand thing that goes over everyone's heads.
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I don't think it's going over everyone's heads. I think most people agree that a 6 does have similar features to a 9, but they are not the same. I honestly don't see how putting #9 in a circle constitutes being able to stop everyone from being able to put a number in a circle for their brand. Race cars did it for years. I think everyone is upset because of how dumb this lawsuit seems. They don't all of a sudden own all numbers in circles. The logos don't look to me like they even came from the same company, let alone fool me into thinking they are the same beer. The suit has no merit. What if I put a circle in a circle? A circle has similar features to both a six and a nine. If they were concerned about infringement, they should have thought of a more specific logo than a number in a circle.
 
BreezyBrew said:
Sorry, I posted the wrong pic. Here's a better one. I'm not trying to defend Magic Hat here, but all things considered, I think they look pretty similar. You and I would know the difference but people that don't really know a lot about beer could easily mistake the two... like my Mom for example.
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We need to ask all our moms if they'd mistake the two cans :)
 
I've been hearing about this issue for a few days now. I work at a LHBS and I'm a graphic designer so this story collides both my jobs. Today was the first time I've actually looked at the logos/cans and IMO, West Sixth shouldn't be taking this lightly. We've all seen BMC try to crush the little guy and sometimes they win. A small brewery like West Sixth doesn't have the power to fight a good fight against Magic Hat. Graphically, I can see the similarities. It's not just about a 6 or a 9 or a circle or a star. It's about the overall feel and image of the design. As a designer I could easily see how the West Sixth logo could've been inspired by #9. I look at other work all the time when I'm doing a design for inspiration. It's what most designers do. Normally I would avoid doing something as similar as West Sixth is to #9. Especially considering how big Magic Hat is. I don't think this is going to end well for West Sixth...
 

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