TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Nope!
Warm Fermented Lager Thread
- Thread starter applescrap
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TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
Nope. I contributed to derailing this thread with oxygen talk, sorry about that. Back on topic.
seabrew8
Well-Known Member
Your a hop head? you like lagers?
I realize you were asking Hopfather, not me, but if I may interject - my home brewing habit has led me to some unwanted weight gain. I've tried to adjust my palate back to lagers so that I can better brew them. I'm used to heavy beers, but double amber IPAs can have upwards of 50 grams of carbohydrates per beer. Most "low-carb" diets, not including Keto, say to stay below 50g per day. That's what I'm shooting for. Keep in mind, even green beans have 6g of carbs per serving, so if I eat nothing but salad all day, then drink a single Hop Stoopid, I'm already over my daily intake, and if I can help it, I'd rather eat around 20g a day.
I recently cloned Sam Adams Black Lager, which is about 13g of carbs per beer. That was tasty. I now have an Anchor Steam clone in the basement, and that's about 16 carbs per beer.
I'm essentially on what they call "the Oktoberfest diet." I eat sausage, chicken, and vegetables, but no significant carbs to speak of other than lager.
My next batch will be my take on Henry Weinhard's Private Reserve, and that'll take me down to 9g of carbs per beer, and I'll tweak that over time to try to emulate an authentic German lager.
The challenge will be making a homebrew with enough flavor that rivals the carb content of Natty Lite - 3g per beer, or Michelob Ultra, which has only 2.6g per beer. I had a Natty Lite the other day (my friend gave me one), and while I could say something snobby here, let's just say it didn't do it for me. Swilling Private Reserve makes me feel like a redneck with his pinky finger out, but it basically does it for me. IMO, it's better than Bud, it's better than Miller, or pretty much any big name lager, and it's almost indistinguishable from Ninkasi's Helles Bells.
There is such a thing as an IPL - India Pale Lager, so as a hop head, this is something that is also in my home brew future. I can add as many floral hops as I want in a hop stand, and my beer will be delicious, but not impact my waistline so drastically. Would I rather have a double amber IPA? Yeah, probably, but a good lager can be delicious too, and staying healthy means living longer for my wife and sticking around for more beer!
This thread is helpful because I plan to continue my lager trend as my basement warms up.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
I also try to keep the carbs in check. I've got major back issues and am still at the beginning of PT recovering from surgery. Where are you getting your carb estimates? That is something I have looked for so I can brew accordingly but have been unable to find a decent source for even commercial brews.
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
What about healthy exercise? A program of weight training with some limited cardio plus a decent diet could avoid this sort of stuff you are putting yourself through. Giving your hormones a purpose, such as insulin - the most anabolic hormone, with weight training is a better ticket than aimlessness though the litany of diets. Keto is a diet for those who are completely desperate (obese, insulin resistant, etc) or for sophisticated athletes who know how to undertake programmed food consumption.
Ofest diet sounds great for when on a bulk cycle with some "supplements." I might look into that.
I just Google "beer X carbs". Some sites disagree on carb count, so I might do a bit of averaging.
I know what works for me. I'm a big dude with a large frame. I've gained weight before, and I've been skinny. I tend to yo-yo. I'm not offering weight loss advice necessarily. I know my body responds well to low-carb diets, and hardly responds at all to walking/exercise/etc. I don't feel like spinning my wheels. I'm 40, cranky, and impatient.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Are you my F'n lost twin?! 40, cranky, impatient, big dude, respond to low carb if I'm consistent, beer and tortillas are my weight nemesis[emoji482]
Damn, was hoping you found something I had missed. Sorry to get off track folks, back to your regularly scheduled programming!
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
No problem here, I am glad people are meeting up and the lodo is interesting, but its such a cool and heavily questioned process, I dont want to bury that.
Guys, this is the warm fermented lager thread.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Very interesting and informative discussion about yeast. After listening I agree with Drew, I am appropriately confused! https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-59-yeast-mysteries-sui-generis
I don't think the term lager implies any fermentation temperatures at all. IIRC, it's a characteristic/strain of yeast used.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
LMAO! Ok, but I get to be the hot one[emoji16]
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Check out the podcast. With DNA sequencing it is starting to come to light that what we thought of as lager strains (Saccharomyces pastorianus) are actually hybrids of what we think of as ale strains (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and relatively recently discovered Saccharomyces eubayanus. Saccharomyces eubayanus was first found in Patagonia where it was thought to have originated but now looks like it might have actually originated in Tibet (according to Dave Carpenter, the guest on the podcast)! See, appropriately confused [emoji85] [emoji86] [emoji87]
I was just listening this morning on the way into work. It's the first episode I've listened to. I like it!
Just to quote myself, I bought some WLP 800 "lager" yeast (genetic research did show that it is actually an ale yeast) and will do a Schwarzbier with it as soon as my main fermenter is free, which will be in aproximately 2 weeks time. Got a historic english IPA in there made of Chavellier, Pilsner, Bittering hops and Saaz with NBS Classic english ale yeast, which is supposed to be the Mauribrew Ale 514 "English Ale" (AB Mauri Y514) repacked. Took off like a bomb within a few hours!
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
Love to hear your thoughts on the Chavellier and historic recipe. I've heard some comments here and there but nothing definitive. Some said it was overwhelming when used as the only base malt. What proportions did you go with?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Eubayanus will turn up in Europe, we just haven't found it yet. People went through hoops to try and explain how the "Japanese" yeast S. kudriavzevii could have hybridised to form certain European wine yeasts because they couldn't find it in European vineyards - and then they found it on oak trees in Europe. Those same trees that were being cut down to make wine barrels and corks...
Further sequencing has revealed that people are making commercial lager with anything from normal ale yeasts to close relatives of saison yeast - the whole idea of lager requiring a eubayanus hybrid no longer applies. And as this thread has seen, you can make good lager at warm temperatures. So if you don't need cold and you don't need eubayanus hybrids, the whole idea of trying to define "lager" starts to look a bit futile. Like porn, you know it when you see it - it tastes like Bavarian/Czech beers made with pilsner malt, noble hops, with eubayanus hybrid yeast at low temperatures - but none of those are an absolute requirement.
I will create a new thread for this... do not want to spam too much in this nice thread here
... although, my Schwarzbier will probably contain some of the Chevallier, but not as much as this historic IPA does.
Finished listening to this on the way home. What an awesome interview with Dr. Heit. He even mentioned that he has had good luck with warm fermented lagers. I wish they would have expanded on the topic a little though.
TANSTAAFB
Well-Known Member
I thought the same thing!
This is extremely enlightening. So THIS is why warm lager fermentation isn't a problem. Conventional lagering wisdom wasn't wrong, we just didn't know which genomes of yeast we were using.
This conversation is a bit lengthy, so I perhaps missed it, but do we have a list of specific yeasts we should not buy if we plan to make lager in the summer? -or do we just need to Google the brand and strain and try to figure out what family they're from? Sometimes the manufacturer is not forthcoming about whether something is Frohberg, Saaz, PacMan, Chico, etc.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
It's a useful summary but there wasn't really anything new for people who've been following the subject. And the pronunciations drove me nuts, particularly putting an "r" in bayanus...
If you want his thoughts on warm lager, try http://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2016/02/20/its-lager-time/ (although his site has been overloading today)
We didn't know the genomics, but that wasn't really the reason. There's no reason people couldn't have ignored the conventional wisdom and tried fermenting "lager" yeast warm to see what happened, they chose not to - except in the case of California Commons. You could argue that the genomics just gives people the confidence to try experiments that they could have done 100 years ago.
Heck, there's nothing in the public domain about basic stuff like what temperature different commercial lager yeast will grow up to - the textbooks say that "true" lager yeast shouldn't grow at 37C but I suspect reality is messier than that. Testing growth at 37C is something that almost anyone could do.
Well Pacman and Chico are different, they're quite narrow strains/families whereas Saaz vs Frohberg is something much bigger, there's an argument that they represent different species or at the very least different "ethnicities" of yeast.
But even Dr Google won't help you much, it's only fairly recently that the Saaz vs Frohberg distinction has come to be appreciated and all the public-domain work has been done by academic labs that get their yeast from their own yeastbanks rather than the local LHBS. However.... Without wanting to give too much away, we should know rather more about the Saaz/Frohberg status of most of the common liquid lager yeasts by the summer - but if anyone has some to contribute that aren't readily available in the UK (ie not Wyeast/WL) then we're open to donations...
It's really early days, at the moment all we really know is that 34/70 (and hence presumably the liquid versions WLP830 and 2124) and S-189 (hence presumably WLP885) work well, plus the California Common yeasts. So there's not really any need to experiment with yeasts if all you want is something that "works" - but obviously it's interesting to broaden out the scope to other yeasts.
Frohberg yeasts are generally German(ic), whereas Saaz yeasts are generally Czech (or from Carsberg). 34/70 is the archetypal Frohberg yeast, and Frohberg yeasts have more ale DNA so you might expect them to prefer warmer temperatures but at the moment we don't really have enough datapoints to be confident in generalising.
Just to make things a little more complicated, may I add that it also looks like WLP800 is able to ferment lager style beer warm and that it also seems to be actually not a real lager, but an ale yeast?
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/
They did this experiment with it showing that it works warm as well. I will brew a Schwarzbier with it in one or two weeks and then we will know more. I will try to reuse the yeast for future brews, if it works well.
The 34 70 just flocks soooooo badly....... also it gave me off flavours in my setup, although I did totally rush it, I think around 8 days grain to bottle, no time to clean up, and I probably have night/day temperature differences in this room of about 10C, so you really cannot blame the yeast for my faulty handling.
http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/
They did this experiment with it showing that it works warm as well. I will brew a Schwarzbier with it in one or two weeks and then we will know more. I will try to reuse the yeast for future brews, if it works well.
The 34 70 just flocks soooooo badly....... also it gave me off flavours in my setup, although I did totally rush it, I think around 8 days grain to bottle, no time to clean up, and I probably have night/day temperature differences in this room of about 10C, so you really cannot blame the yeast for my faulty handling.
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I tried 34/70, held (beer temp) at 60°F +/- 1° for a week and got huge peach/stone fruit. Was not happy, and while there was a suggestion to do it again at 68°, I am hesitant to take time in my limited brewing schedule.
Yes same here (not the stone fruit, but the time problem). But we got many other very good alternatives, we got the california common strains and the wlp800, there is really no need to stick to the 34 70 if there is some doubt about it involved because of personal experiences. Although it seems to work for a lot of people.
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
Wlp800 or 830 cant remember which one, doesnt work very well. In general i havent cared for their yeasts, ymmv. Clearing these up is hard. Cold crash for a solid 24 hours. Then add gelatin and let sit 3 or more days and be verrry careful racking. This will give a crystal clear beer. Finally finished that marzen I made and it was amazing, really, amazing. Time does seems to help these simple brews.
thunderwagn
Well-Known Member
+1...beer gets a bad rap. It's easier to point the finger at that and carbs than it is to pick up a barbell or god forbid...do some type of cardio couple times a week...gulp... It's amazing what even a daily walk will do.
I love the last part of this post! That’s what’s great about home brewing. You can make and drink styles you personally like the most even if they aren’t commonly commercially available! Brew on!
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
"Doesnt work" is in reference to warm fermentation? Perhaps 830?
Nebraskan
Assoc. Winemaker
My boss, who started the winery with his parents, would disagree with that statement. He has a college degree in Chemistry as well as does our other Assistant Winemaker, who's degree is in food science. Carbon dioxide blankets over wine are real and we do take extra care to renew the CO2 on unfilled tanks, especially this time of year when they are in the room for cold stabilization as CO2 is absorbed by the wine.
Apple I don't know of any lagers more malty than Double bock. They are described as liquid bread. It is what the monks would drink instead of eating during lent. I also happen to love double bock, and you can make it really big, which can be fun.
OP
OP
applescrap
Be the ball!
Well there you go. Haha, appreciate you pointing that out. So some malty lagers I do like. Others not so much.
filthyastronaut
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Just bottled my first warm fermented lager using 34/70, temp plateaued at 66 during active fermentation. Planning to lager in the bottle after normal bottle conditioning. So far disappointed in the flavor, especially when had next to Prost Pils, which is a delicious local pilsner from a German style brewery. Some hops were noticeable, sulfur that was abundant during fermentation was gone, and there were no solvent or fruity flavors, very clean, yet there is a pronounced astringency (different from hop bitterness) and the flavor was somewhat dull. Hoping biofine, conditioning, and lagering will fix it. There was a nice honey-like pilsner malt flavor lurking underneath, but very faint. Here's the recipe:
Title: 72 Hour Hold
Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)
STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73
FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)
HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41
MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal
YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F
Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.
Title: 72 Hour Hold
Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: German Pils
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 2.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036
Efficiency: 80% (brew house)
STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.050
Final Gravity: 1.010
ABV (standard): 5.27%
IBU (tinseth): 46.19
SRM (morey): 3.73
FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (97%)
2 oz - German - Melanoidin (3%)
HOPS:
1 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.77
2 oz - Hallertau Hersbrucker, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.1, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 19.41
MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 156 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 2 gal
YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - Saflager - German Lager Yeast W-34/70
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 83%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 48 - 72 F
Rebrewing on Friday and gonna try a cooler but still warm temperature with Tradition instead of Hersbrucker, and no Melanoidin. Also Brewtan B.
Smellyglove
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When you say "dull" and "astringency" my first thought is you water. Maybe you need to get your mash pH down? If not then at least imo dullness is a classic with warm-fermented lagers, at least the ones I've tasted. Maybe it helps if you ferment it under pressure.
filthyastronaut
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Looking back at my notes, I did accidentally put in my normal amount of gypsum for an IPA (last thing I brewed before it was an IPA). So around 150 ppm Sulfate in a Pilsner could easily explain the astringency. Gonna shoot for more like 40 ppm next time.
Smellyglove
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I was thinking more in the lines of acid, or acid malt.
