when i compared 3 yeasts for WF, i also concluded that S-23 was my least favorite. it improved greatly after 6 months of cold lagering but who wants to wait that long when other yeasts are tasty much sooner?
Warm Fermented Lager Thread
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For those who are dipping their toes into pressure fermenting lagers, I gotta say that Saflager 34/70 is the BOMB. Yes, this is the WF lager thread, but pressure-fermented lagers can be done warm, so I'm adding it here. I brewed one last weekend that was fermented at 15psi the entire run; did a starter with dry 34/70 (yes I know I don't have to but I was overthinking it). Absolute cleanest, crispest WF lager I've done, and I've been doing it for a few years now. For those who care, it was fermented in a keg with a clipped diptube at about 68°. Oh yeah; I brewed this on 5/13. It is now 5/21 and it's been on tap for two days. Does it taste 'young'? Nope. Esters? Nope. Sulfur? NOPE. Just a nice crisp lawnmower beer, apt because I just mowed my mom's yard. And it will only get better.
duelerx
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Just recently read a blog post from White Labs worth to read, White Labs R&D team did their own research to validate data from some of the large scale studies. TLDR:
Matched with previous genome sequencing projects
Hybrids
WLP051 California V Ale Yeast
WLP515 Antwerp Ale Yeast
S. cerevisiae
WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast
Different from sequencing projects
WLP029 German/Kölsch Ale Yeast - Hybrid to S. cerevisiae
WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast - S. cerevisiae to Hybrid
The same culture was plated in independent plates and each plate was incubated at a different temperature:
30C
37C
Matched with previous genome sequencing projects
Hybrids
WLP051 California V Ale Yeast
WLP515 Antwerp Ale Yeast
S. cerevisiae
WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast
Different from sequencing projects
WLP029 German/Kölsch Ale Yeast - Hybrid to S. cerevisiae
WLP838 Southern German Lager Yeast - S. cerevisiae to Hybrid
The same culture was plated in independent plates and each plate was incubated at a different temperature:
30C
- All strains presented strong growth at 30 °C, the control condition, indicating that all the cultures were healthy and that similar amounts of yeast were inoculated in each spot.
37C
- All strains classified as S. cerevisiae in our PCR analysis (WLP029 and WLP800) presented growth at 37 °C.
- All strains classified as S. pastorianus in our PCR analysis (WLP802, WLP820, WLP830, WLP833, WLP838, WLP840, and WLP860) were not able to grow at 37 °C.
- Some residual growth was observed for WLP051, WLP515, and WLP810
- No growth was observed for WLP838 at 37°C, verifying our PCR results that this strain is a hybrid and not an ale strain as reported by previous studies.
thanks, I've never gone above 23c so looks like I'm safe
I don't have much experience brewing lagers myself, but it sure seems odd that a yeast given the name "WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast" (the two terms that most people use to describe "lager" beers) is actually an ale strain!
The PCR chart seems to show "WLP802 Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast" as S. cerevisiae, but it is not called out. Mistake in the chart?
Chetbrews
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What temp did you ferment at for this batch?
I noticed the same thing. Unlike some of the other strains, this tidbit was NOT confirmed by the second phase testing. So I guess they shrugged it off as unconfirmed. Still there should be some additional followup testing for this in future to figure out who's right and who's wrong. There has got to be one correct answer.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
How did you make it clear?
It's long known that wlp 800 is actually more of an ale strain from a genetic point of view. It's supposed to be the pilsner urquell strain and it is a marvellously well warm fermenting "lager" strain.
The real group of "Lager"yeast does not really exist genetically, if you ask me. Many fancy genetic ideas but at the end it's the taste of the beer that makes it a lager. And this taste can be realised and has been realised historically through multiple yeast variants.
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Good spot, thanks.
838 never quite felt right as a cerevisiae.
Suggests these might be good ones to look at if you're wanting that pastorianus taste when brewing at room temperatures.
When we talked about the original paper that sequenced a lot of these things back in 2019, my comment was "Before we get too carried away with idea that WLP838 is an ale and Wyeast 1187 is a lager, we should perhaps also consider the idea that they've just got mixed up. It certainly happened in a couple of cases with the 1002 genomes from Strasbourg, it's tough managing this number of samples and mixups do happen. Remember this is provisional data at this stage."
838 never quite felt right as a cerevisiae.
It's supposed to come from Urquell. Which would suggest it's one of the five separate yeasts that they used to ferment with. It's quite plausible that they were using 1 cerevisiae and 4 pastorianus. Traditional breweries seldom use 1 strain, so people should get away from thinking that a particular homebrew strain is *the* [Brewery X] strain, these things are team players.
Well pastorianus is clearly a well defined group, but I'd agree if what you're trying to say is that people worry far too much about the definition of "lager" as a beer - according to the Gallone paper people are making beer sold as "lager" commercially with yeast from the saison family...
I use gelatin at kegging to clear the beer. This one didn't quite get clear (it didn't last long enough, for one thing) until about 4 days in. Thinking I could have cold crashed it an extra day. Doing that with the one I brewed next, will get transferred to the serving keg tonight.
68°, then cranked it up to 70 for a day before crashing.
Does anybody have much experience fermenting WLP051 "California V Ale Yeast" at lager temps or using it to make warm fermented "lagers"?
A few years ago I was doing more harvesting and pitching yeast. I used WLP051 over many months and probably brewed 5-8 batches of various IPA and Pale Ale fermented in the 66F range. Overall I thought it was a decent yeast that made a nice drinkable and clean ale. In a split vs WLP001, I liked WLP001 a little better so I switched back to that strain (though in a few triangle tests, I could not pick out 001 vs 051).
I have been curious about trying out that yeast in a style like a Cold IPA or West Coast Pilsner...but W-34/70 at 62F works so well for that type of beer I don't have much motivation to try out WLP051 again.
A few years ago I was doing more harvesting and pitching yeast. I used WLP051 over many months and probably brewed 5-8 batches of various IPA and Pale Ale fermented in the 66F range. Overall I thought it was a decent yeast that made a nice drinkable and clean ale. In a split vs WLP001, I liked WLP001 a little better so I switched back to that strain (though in a few triangle tests, I could not pick out 001 vs 051).
I have been curious about trying out that yeast in a style like a Cold IPA or West Coast Pilsner...but W-34/70 at 62F works so well for that type of beer I don't have much motivation to try out WLP051 again.
Yes postarianus is well defined. But there are yeasts outside this group that are capable of making very good traditional lagers so postarianus does not equal lager yeast which means that there is not such thing as a clearly genetically defined group of lager yeasts.
duelerx
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Which one is the yeast from Saison family?
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
We don't know. Not a "homebrew" strain. The 2016 Gallone et al paper tested 40+ strains from commercial breweries as well as most of the White Labs strains, and all we know about the commercial ones is the very briefest description, and what group they ended up in. Strains Beer039 and Beer040 are both Beer2 (ie saison family) strains, used for "Beer (Lager)" in Czechia and the US respectively. It's worth noting that not all Beer2 strains are phenolic though.
fluketamer
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Wortchester
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I went and made a batch of WL with Novalager yeast. Process remained the same, only OG was 12'P this time around. Fermentation started without surprises. It got lazy near the end and ended on day 9 at 3'P. I think this pack of yeast woke up a bit grumpy. Fresh crisp mouthfeel, some sulphur, and there is a bit of warm apple in the aftertaste. Doesn't have the snap of a more traditional yeast, but it identifies as a lager. It cleared up surprisingly quickly and has an average stick on the bottles. My impression of it right now is that of a slightly more mellow W34/70. Based on sample size of one, i'd call this the best dry yeast for a lawnmower beer.
We are doing a club big brew day the 3rd week of July. The local brewery gives us all at least 6 gal of wort to take home. This year it is going to be a marzen.
They have to be ready to pour at club tent at a brewfest on September 9th. Brew it however you like. I am shooting for marzen/Octoberfest like.
Fermentation temps coldest I can keep first week is low 60s. Thinking Lutra, any other suggestions? Will keg. How about hops traditional or a twist?
They have to be ready to pour at club tent at a brewfest on September 9th. Brew it however you like. I am shooting for marzen/Octoberfest like.
Fermentation temps coldest I can keep first week is low 60s. Thinking Lutra, any other suggestions? Will keg. How about hops traditional or a twist?
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3470. Lutra won't be even close to a lager.
34/70 and Novalager were the other two yeasts I was thinking about.
Which will be pleasant to drink with 3 weeks in fermenter and 3 weeks kegged? My big concern was the fermenter temp. I can switch out frozen water bottles for a week then it will free rise to upper 60s maybe 70, it all depends what basement closet is at.
Which will be pleasant to drink with 3 weeks in fermenter and 3 weeks kegged? My big concern was the fermenter temp. I can switch out frozen water bottles for a week then it will free rise to upper 60s maybe 70, it all depends what basement closet is at.
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Lutra ferments hot. I've used it for a Märzen and it was decent. I preferred the version I made with MJ Cali lager.
Anti-Hoppist
Active Member
Ever tried fermenting a lager at 26C?
Because that's what I'm doing right now.
Because that's what I'm doing right now.
79°???? Wow. Sorry, other side of the pond, had to convert C to F. That's super high. What yeast are you using?
Yes. Even higher. I was once sl blessed with spontaneous summer temperatures above 30c. Mangrove Jack California lager turned slightly fruity, which was pleasant.
I think I did 3470 around 25c once, was also ok.
DuncB
Well-Known Member
Opshaug kveik at 30 C and pressure fermented let it rise to 30 psi with the spunding valve. Held it there for 5 days and then cold crashed.
Not a true lager though but very clean.
Not a true lager though but very clean.
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Anti-Hoppist
Active Member
Old trusty W34/70
It'll be fine.
TomSellers
Active Member
Especially if it is under pressure.
Now that mine has been lagering for 5 weeks, I’m shocked at how good it is. Split batch with S-23, S-189, and 34/70. I didn’t like S-23 in the beginning. I now think it is my favorite. S-189 is really close, and 34/70 does nothing for me. Kind of like drinking domestic. I’d use either S-23 or S-189 again with no hesitation. I’ve never been able to fall for 34/70. I thought 4 kegs would last awhile. I’m not so sure now! ✌
Red over White
Well-Known Member
34/70 is not for me. S23 & S189 however are amazing fermented under pressure. Those 2 blended post fermentation in the keg are my jam!
Anti-Hoppist
Active Member
I like 34/70 exactly because It doesn't do much, regardless of temperature (28C and rising today, by the way), at most It gifts a soft and palate cleansing pear-y finish.
Neutral yeast, low IBU, and I can bask in cereal & malt delight
Neutral yeast, low IBU, and I can bask in cereal & malt delight
Anti-Hoppist
Active Member
That said, and forgive me if I name an ale yeast in this thread, lately I've been tempted to try SafAle K-97. But there's so little info on It, I can't find out exactly what his unique character and low esters shoul taste like, nor I can't find how low these esters would be at nearly 30C of fermentation
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I tried k97 and lalemand Koln and went back to usinsg WY1007. The dry is easier yes, but just "blah" and took FOREVER to clear compared to the already slow WY1007. One man's opinion.
bellhp
Well-Known Member
I'm sold on 34/70 ...just bottled a Vienna lager some 34/70 made for me at room temp ... can't see a reason to try anything else at this point . I've got a pack of K97 I bought to do a Kolshe style ale , but from what I've read it's not very popular . I will do the Kolshe and then another light German lager (Helles) with some more 34/70 soon .
Try Imperial yeast harvest for the helles. Best helles yeast I've ever seen. Works also warm fermented.
I use 3470 for everything lager, except for Helles.
bellhp
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the recommendation Miraculix , Still going with the original plan at this time . I have harvested 34/70 in my fridge and the Helles was planned so that yeast could get used based on the grain I have on hand . I am at sea right now ... may not get home till mid July .
I personally would never use harvested yeast that old again. I've lost too many beers this way. Either infection or underpitch or both. I only use yeast again when I can throw the wort directly on the yeastcake, latest one day after bottling.
