Technique to add grain to strike water solo

[isomerization]

Curious how you've made that determination, you sound so sure.

Where is the evidence of HSA in the homebrew scale? As in, what am I actually looking for to see if it's "happening"? Cold side O2 exposure is so much easier to see/grasp as there are countless documented cases of it occurring.

In my book, something needs to be proven to exist, before we prove that it doesn't...

 

[day_trippr]

If you dare...the rabbit hole is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532

Cheers!

 

[milldoggy]

I do get dough balls, but it never takes more than 10 minutes to stir everything up. 2 years ago I switched out my mash paddle for an 18" Stainless Steel whisk. It makes very quick work of the dough balls.

I find it easier to dump it all in then stir than to mess around with adding small amounts at a time.

If you had a tip rig that may be a different story.

+1 same here, moved from a paddle to huge whip, no more balls

 

[lump42]

You could add the water to the grain. Ive never had dough balls in 32 batches.

 

[jrgtr42]

I add about half my strike water to my mash tun, then add the grain a few pounds at a time. I stir enough to move it around each addition. Once all the grain is in I add the rest of the water, a quart or so at a time, stirring during and after each addition. I plan for roughly 1.3 qts/ lb, and don't worry if I'm a quart above or below. Once all the water is in I'll stir extra to make sure it's all in.

 

[triethylborane]

+1 same here, moved from a paddle to huge whip, no more BALLS

50 shades of beer

 

[isomerization]

If you dare...the rabbit hole is here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580532

Cheers!

I'm certainly aware of that thread/LoDo ideology, out how is that proof HSA is real? There are a lot of other variables at play there that would confound that type of assertion, unless I'm misunderstanding.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't know if one could say for sure there is proof however there is a growing amount of real science that points toward it's existence. It was not my intention to derail this dough ball thread but simply add point to think about when talking about whipping a lot of air into the mash. Especially when one considers that underletting works so well to avoid both problems.

<-- Steps off soapbox. Let the whipping recommence.

 

[isomerization]

I don't know if one could say for sure there is proof however there is a growing amount of real science that points toward it's existence. It was not my intention to derail this dough ball thread but simply add point to think about when talking about whipping a lot of air into the mash. Especially when one considers that underletting works so well to avoid both problems.

Let the whipping recommence.

Well, it is pertinent to the OPs questions, so I don't think it's a major derailment

From reading some of the more recent posts in that thread, it looks like most of the benefits are seen in lagers, this might be why I've not noticed any issues from my use of the cement mixer rig. No lagers for me!

 

[Bilsch]

I chased an odd and annoying bitterness for years in my beers and then happened to stumble onto the possibility of HSA as the cause on another forum a few years ago. Since this hobby is all about trying new things to improve our beer, and was capable of executing the low oxygen process, I dove in. After that the strange flavor was gone and other benefits became greatly apparent so there was no going back.

It&#8217;s my feeling that some people are more sensitive to herbstoff (malt bitterness), or more put off by the flavor than others. Some don&#8217;t perceive it at all and so there is no problem. To me it was certainly more apparent in light, low bitterness lagers but was always present. It stands to reason in very hoppy beers it's lost in the background noise and again for those brewers is not an issue.

Maybe it would be better if I rephrased my initial assertion and say; for those who brew light malty lagers and or are annoyed by persistent background bitterness and who also whip the bejesus out of the mash, you might want to take a look at HSA.

 

[Hanglow]

How long does it take you to transfer the strike water from your HLT to your mash tun?


But am wondering what the advantage of doing this is... My current system requires no line changes, just dough in, stir and turn the pump back on.

A minute or two maybe, I have a 22mm tap on my HLT and usually have about 16 or so litres of strike water. There is little to no resistance from the grain on the flow of water. i just have my hlt on a table and the mash tun, a cool box, on a chair next to it.

There is less stirring needed with underletting and you can mill straight into your mashtun. It's really just a small improvement imo, but it is there

 

[clarkpadgett]

I pour all the grain in and let it sink into the water at it's own pace. I do not stir until all everything is soaked. Never had a dough ball.

 

[smarch0]

So with underletting, I use a rectangular cooler with bazooka screen and have no false bottom. I use a gravity fed HLT into this mash tun, so could I just run a longer hose under the grain to underlett? Or does it not really work without a false bottom?

 

[wilserbrewer]

So with underletting, I use a rectangular cooler with bazooka screen and have no false bottom. I use a gravity fed HLT into this mash tun, so could I just run a longer hose under the grain to underlett? Or does it not really work without a false bottom?

Most run the strike water back through the drain valve when underletting.

Should work about the same with a braid as a false bottom.

 

[wilserbrewer]

So with underletting, I use a rectangular cooler with bazooka screen and have no false bottom. I use a gravity fed HLT into this mash tun, so could I just run a longer hose under the grain to underlett? Or does it not really work without a false bottom?

Most run the strike water back through the drain valve when underletting.

Should work about the same with a braid as a false bottom.

I have never tried underletting as I always heat my strike water in the vessel I intend to mash in, so for me not underletting is far easier.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I didn’t read the entire thread sorry and this won’t help you but I underlet mine from the hlt, just add the grains to the mashtun then pump in 160-degree water from the bottom, and it’s done, minimal stirring and no dough balls but the catch is I have a 3 pot 20-gallon herms system

 

[BroomVikin]

I simply dump the grains in at once at a reasonable rate, allow them to settle, and stir with one of these attached to my drill. Six bucks at Lowe's. Never had doughballs and it saves tons of time.

 

[soccerdad]

I have a tin cup that is used every brew day. It's like those camping coffee cups you dtill see on occasion. Probably holds 20 ounces of liquid and maybe half a pound of grain. I put about 4 or 5 of those in the strike water, stir a bit, and put 4 or 5 more in. For 10 to 12 pounds of grist the process may take a minute and a half. I've never had a dough ball.

 

[derfh]

I use a braid in my circular cooler mash tun, I also mash thin and batch sparge. I add the grain first then the strike water all at once. Let the air bubble out and then mix quickly with a mash paddle (30 seconds). Good to go and no balls.

 

[bleak]

John Palmer says to add the water to the grain, so that&#8217;s what I do. He doesn&#8217;t say why, but he says it so definitively that I wonder, who am I to argue? This is how he puts it:

&#8220;You want to add the water to the grain, not the other way around. Use a saucepan or a plastic pitcher to pour in a gallon of your strike water at a time and stir between infusions. Don&#8217;t try to pour 4 gallons of hot water into the infusion all at once. You don&#8217;t want to thermally shock the enzymes.&#8221;

I like a very tight crush and a thick mash at 1.25 quarts/lbs., so I generally get pretty major doughballs. I tend to stress about the mash temperature dropping while I stir the doughballs out, but usually I manage to hit the numbers. Anyway, it generally works for me.

 

[BrunDog]

I have an issue with this: &#8220;You want to add the water to the grain, not the other way around. Use a saucepan or a plastic pitcher to pour in a gallon of your strike water at a time and stir between infusions. Don&#8217;t try to pour 4 gallons of hot water into the infusion all at once. You don&#8217;t want to thermally shock the enzymes.&#8221;

The whole point of heating your strike water to a temperature that is higher than your grain is that once they mix, they land at your mash step temp. So my beef is two-fold: When adding water to the MLT, you have to compensate for the temp of the MLT, making it even harder to land upon your desired mash temp. Obviously software like Beersmith helps, but its still a larger difference... hence your water has to be hotter than when the MLT is preheated or the water is recirculated/heated in the MLT before the grain is added.

Second, you will not thermally shock the enzymes by pouring all your strike water in at once. If calculated correctly and combined quickly, the resulting net temp should land right at your mash temp. How will it end up hotter? Perhaps the small area of grain which receives the stream of hot water will, but that's no different than adding it in batches really.

In my system, the water and MLT are at strike temp. I pour the grain in out of a bucket in one hand while stirring quickly with the other. Rarely a DB and I always land right around at my intended mash temp. Seems like a solution looking for a problem, lol.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I do the same, I have a herms and heat the hlt to 162f, add the dry grain to the mash tun and slowly let in the water from the hlt from the bottom of the mash, the temp equals out to roughly my mash temp usually then start the circulation to get it to the exact temp, I get 85% brew house usually so I guess it works

 

[schematix]

John Palmer says to add the water to the grain, so that’s what I do. He doesn’t say why, but he says it so definitively that I wonder, who am I to argue?

If you don't know "why" it sure sounds like a good reason to question the process....

 

[nmenninga]

I have always scooped water by the pyrex quart pitcher out of my HLT (a big pot of water on the stove) onto the dry grain in my mash tun (a Gott cooler), stirring with each addition (to avoid having too much grain in contact with HLT temps), until I hit my mash temp. The first gallon or so is like stirring thick oatmeal, and I am careful to get to the bottom with my spoon to avoid dry spots. Generally my HLT temp is about 15 df higher than my first rest target, although that can vary depending on how thick I want the mash to be and the initial temperature of the grain (ie, winter vs summer). It takes a few tries to get comfortable with this technique, it helps to have a little boiling and cold water on hand on your first couple tries. Efficiencies in the 80s are typical, but mash thickness can be somewhat imprecise.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Underletting is an amazing technique and IMHO should be the one recommended to all. It's simple and incredibly effective.

1. Crush directly into MLT. Alternatively crush into bucket then dump into MLT.

2. Fill with strike water from below. This also back flushes your false bottom.

3. When all the water is in, give a good stir to loosen the bed.

I think most would be shocked how few dough balls you get this way and it doesn't require 5 minutes of stirring to break them up because there are so few. It's mostly just mixing up the dense areas. It takes a few minutes to dough in but it takes 30 seconds of stirring to homogenize.

Can't say enough good things about the technique.

I think this sounds like a great technique for those using a false bottom. I'm not sure it would be as effective with a bazooka screen like I use.

 

[schematix]

I think this sounds like a great technique for those using a false bottom. I'm not sure it would be as effective with a bazooka screen like I use.

What would be your concern?

 

[triethylborane]

Originally Posted by bleak
John Palmer says to add the water to the grain, so that’s what I do. He doesn’t say why, but he says it so definitively that I wonder, who am I to argue?

If you don't know "why" it sure sounds like a good reason to question the process....

As someone who has used protein shaker cups for a long time, I can tell you that YOU ALWAYS PUT WATER IN FIRST THEN ADD THE SUPPS! Holy smokes, that stuff turns to concrete if you put water in second.

/end irrelevant post

 

[lslbrew]

I have an issue with this: “You want to add the water to the grain, not the other way around.

I am with you on this one. Starting cold my mash tun absorbs 4 degrees. Instead of preheating the tun I increase my calculated strike temp by 4 degrees. I drain from the HLT to the MT then wait a minute or two. By then the temp is at the strike temp and I add the grains. If I did this the other way around I would have 171 degree water going directly onto the grain. That sounds more like a shock than pouring all the grain in at once and stirring into the mash temp.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

+1 for underletting.
I mill directly into my MT, then add my strike water through the bottom ball valve (from my kettle's ball valve). It can be done via gravity like I do, or by pump if your setup doesn't allow for gravity to do the work.
It is less work than any other method I've tried.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

What would be your concern?

Just that the water source would be one small point rather than basically rising up from underneath the entire grain bed. That really wouldn't be much different than pouring it from the top.

 

[brewbama]

I add hotter water than required and set an alarm a couple degrees higher than strike water target temp to heat the tun. Once it rings, the minute or so it takes to get out there and get set up to add grain is enough time for the strike water temp to hit my target temp. Then I add a little grain at a time and swish it with a whisk until all the grain is added. The key to hitting the desired mash temp is to get an accurate grain temp and plug it into a calculator. Works every time.

 

[Nmnbrewer]

All the grains at once and then a stir with a 24 inch French whisk off of amazon. Way better than any paddle.

 

[schematix]

Just that the water source would be one small point rather than basically rising up from underneath the entire grain bed. That really wouldn't be much different than pouring it from the top.

It may not be as even as if you had a full FB, but the water will in fact rise from the bottom just like with an FB...

Underletting has advantages beyond just getting the grain wet and hot.
-If done slow enough (~1 Gpm), it gives the grain time to hydrate and starches to get into solution before the beta amylase temperatres are reached and the enzymes start to degrade. This process actually works better at lower temps.

-The peak temperature isn't reached until *all* of the water is in the tun (after all, that's your heat source). When water contacts the grain the temperature will immediately drop as the grain absorbs heat from the water. So the risk of denaturing some enzymes while the mash comes to thermal equilibrium is essentially zero.

-Since you are filling the void space between the crushed grain it will better contact the pieces and hydrate them as well. There will be no dough balls.


IMHO pouring crushed grain into the water is the least preferred method
-Highest potential for thermal shock
-Highest potential for dough balls
-Dusty (!)
-Dry grain floats.

In the end all these methods will get you mashing so it's a matter of nuance really.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

It may not be as even as if you had a full FB, but the water will in fact rise from the bottom just like with an FB...

Underletting has advantages beyond just getting the grain wet and hot.
-If done slow enough (~1 Gpm), it gives the grain time to hydrate and starches to get into solution before the beta amylase temperatres are reached and the enzymes start to degrade. This process actually works better at lower temps.

-The peak temperature isn't reached until *all* of the water is in the tun (after all, that's your heat source). When water contacts the grain the temperature will immediately drop as the grain absorbs heat from the water. So the risk of denaturing some enzymes while the mash comes to thermal equilibrium is essentially zero.

-Since you are filling the void space between the crushed grain it will better contact the pieces and hydrate them as well. There will be no dough balls.


IMHO pouring crushed grain into the water is the least preferred method
-Highest potential for thermal shock
-Highest potential for dough balls
-Dusty (!)
-Dry grain floats.

In the end all these methods will get you mashing so it's a matter of nuance really.

I'm convinced. I think I'll give this a shot next time.

 

[GHBWNY]

I mix my grains in the mash tun like you would mix cement in a wheelbarrow. I fill bottom of mash tun with about 1/4 of the strike water and shut the lid for 10 min. to warm up the tun, keeping the rest of the water in the kettle up to temp. Then dump all of the grains into the tun, slowly add the rest of the strike water and stir. Never had a problem with doughballs.