Questions about March Pumps answered by the Factory!

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Walter, we are having trouble understanding why when mounting the pump vertically, the motor needs to be on the bottom with the head on top? We have one mounted this way and another mounted with the motor on top and both are priming and seeming to work properly. I am certainly not implying you're wrong, just looking for more explanation. Could you further clarify how or why air could get trapped if the motor is on top? If it's working fine for us with the motor on top, is it okay to continue to use it that way or is this causing some kind of damage we can't see? We read your tutorial, which was awesome by the way, and everything makes sense except this part about mounting the pumps vertically.
 
Used my 809hs for the first time... How did I brew with out it? Wow what a difference.

Now I need to order the fittings for my 815 center to get that added into the mix.

Brewing just got WAY more enjoyable!

ziggy13 said:
Could you further clarify how or why air could get trapped if the motor is on top?
Click to expand...

Because air travels up. Mounting the motor up means air can easily gets stuck in the pocket where the propeller is. Mounting it the other way means the air rises above the propeller.
 
Thanks guys, I guess what's really confusing me is that if you mount the head above the motor, the outlet port is then below the inlet. Isn't that opposite the way it's supposed to be?
 
The way the pump head is laying in this photo...if the motor were attached to it, the motor would be on top and the head on the bottom, right? Where is the air getting trapped at in this photo? Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, I just can't wrap my thick skull around this concept...


49233d1329934276-short-pump-orientation-mounting-tutorial-cut-away.jpg
 
you can see in the picture the stainless rear cover that's been cut and you can see how the back end of the impeller (the silver part) fits inside it....draw a straight line across the bottom of where the silver meets the black on the impeller and that's where the air will get trapped. For short operations you probably wont damage anything back there but the pump is basically running dry. And it can cause cavitation issues...
 
ziggy13 said:
Thanks guys, I guess what's really confusing me is that if you mount the head above the motor, the outlet port is then below the inlet. Isn't that opposite the way it's supposed to be?
Click to expand...

Technically that's correct...but you have to keep in mind that air always wants to find its highest point...so when you start the pump up and you have air in the lines the pump has a better chance of expelling it out...and if you did have air in the lines it easier to get it out like this because you can cycle the power on/off in a few short bursts...never letting the pump get to full speed and it will usually pass all the air out of itself. :)
 
Hi Walter,

I was in a class the other night that was taught by one of the guys from coastal automation, who built the new stone brewery. We were discussing variable frequency drives, and I asked if it was correct that VFD's are only available to run three phase motors, and he said that there are some new units that can control some single phase motors, depending on how the the motor is wound. I've done some searching but have only found freq drives that can have a single phase input, but where three phase output.

Do you know of any VFD'd that can control a single phase motor, more specifically that can control a march 808 or other march pump that us homebrewers typically use?
 
I don't personally know of any...i have heard rumors from customers about that.....only kind of "VFD" i know that can work on a single phase motor would be a PWM or pulse width modulation....basically it switches full power on/off to vary the speed...its like sitting there flicking a light switch on/off as you watch the flow rate coming out of the pump....
 
I did have one customer that was more on the "money is no option" level that made a stepper motor valve assembly with an attached flow meter and both connected to a PLC controller to vary the output via computer control.....
 
Walter (or anyone with knowledge),

How far below the plastic mounting bracket should the magnet rest, i.e. what should the distance be between the top of the magnet and the top of the plastic mounting bracket?

Thanks.
 
also make sure to center up the bracket as best you can.....if when you start the pump up for the first time you get some rubbing on the back side form the drive magnet....just crack the 4 flat head screws loose enough to be able to move the motor bracket around by tapping it with a handle of the screwdriver....and just tap the bracket in small amounts till the noise goes away...then you should be good to go :)
 
Hey Walter,

I was using my pump this weekend and was wondering why the head is held on with four slotted screws instead of some knurled hand screws?

Using Knurled hand screws would allow the pump head to be removed much more easily and could facilitate cleaning (I would consider soaking it every 3-4 batches....right now I do CIP and haven't had any problems.

...just wondering...am I the only one here?
 
no your not the only one to ask....but these were never specifically designed for brewing....original use was hydronic heating....then they transitioned to the solar industry....now they have been adopted by the beer industry because of the high temps they can handle and since the materials are food safe......if you wanted to do something like that, the easiest thing you can do is get some 8-32 by 1.5" or 2" long studs and use 8-32 wing nuts
 
Walter, I've got a question for you (sorry if it has been asked but couldn't find an answer using search). Is there a reason that power cycling a pump frequently (809 specifically) would be a problem? I am thinking of using a grant and a fluid level switch (like the pros do). The pump would be on for a few seconds and then turn off before running dry.

Thanks
 
At first thought I was thinking 5-10 seconds, but (and I hate to say it because people do it to me all the time at work) if you can say how frequently would be ok I can design for that.
 
5-10 seconds on...then rest for 5-10 seconds then repeat?
I'd feel better if the cycle time were a little longer....only because the inrush current when starting the motor on/off will warm it up and i'm not sure how much cooling you get running the motor for short bursts. The motor Mfg tells us that you can run the motor all the way up to the thermal shutoff...which is right around 200* internal temp. Keep in mind that each time it hits the thermal it looses some of its value over time...
The motors are rated for continuous duty, meaning they can run 24/7 with no harm. And they are rated for use in ambient temps of up to 104*F
All i can tell you with a setup like what you are trying to do is to run it and pay attention to the surface temps of the motor....usually when they start hitting around 175/180*F on the surface, you are nearing the thermal internally. We have run these with surface temps of 150*F for weeks with no ill effects. :)
 
It might be a bit longer on than off but yeah neatly equal on and off time.
That's kinda what I was expecting. I'll just have to upside the grant. Would 30 second pulses be long enough.
 
"I" would "think" it would be enough time...but we have never played with them like that so i cant say with confidence....like i said it would be a trial and error thing on your end....easiest thing to do is just hook a thermocouple to the body of the motor and get a digital volt meter and just watch the read out as it progresses and adjust cycle time longer if the temps start getting uncomfortable. Or you can adjust them shorter fo the motor stays cool too :)
 
That valve could work...the only problem you MAY run into, is if the valve acts too fast it can cause a water hammer and de-couple the pump....if its an instant close/open valve then i would install a small expansion chamber on the outlet side of the pump.....like an air trap above your utility tub faucet so you dont get water hammers when you shut the valve off. :)
 
The simplest solution is to use a bigger grant. For those who don't know (they are rare in homebrew) you gravity feed from the mash tun into the grant, flow is controlled by a valve out of the mash tun. A pump is then used to empty the grant before it over flows, and either recirculated or sent to the kettle. A float valve is typically used to stop overflow and keep the pump from running dry.
 
How much pressure can the 809 handle? I was thinking about using my pump to push beer through a filter and am concerned about the backpressure that would develop, particularly with a fine filter.

If this is something that would be a problem for the 809, what kind of pump would you suggest?
 
You can dead-head it without problems, but I think using gas to push the beer would be the better alternative.
 
WalterAtMarchPump said:
"I" would "think" it would be enough time...but we have never played with them like that so i cant say with confidence....like i said it would be a trial and error thing on your end....easiest thing to do is just hook a thermocouple to the body of the motor and get a digital volt meter and just watch the read out as it progresses and adjust cycle time longer if the temps start getting uncomfortable. Or you can adjust them shorter fo the motor stays cool too :)
Click to expand...

Along these lines...

If you are using a bcs or brew troller you could program in an exit state with a temp probe taped to the motor body. If the motor exceeds a certain temp it sets off an alarm and then if it keeps going it shuts the motor down. You will need to deal with the flow into the grant still but an on/off automated call valve could fix that problem too.
 
pjj2ba said:
How much pressure can the 809 handle? I was thinking about using my pump to push beer through a filter and am concerned about the backpressure that would develop, particularly with a fine filter.

If this is something that would be a problem for the 809, what kind of pump would you suggest?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you are looking for...the pump itself will not make more then 6.5psi assuming you have the "HS" model......but system pressure it can handle up to 50psi for the plastic pumps and 150psi for the metal pumps. So if you were using some gas to force liquid through it then limit it to no more then the above limits.
 
Maybe an odd question. After my brew night Friday night :drunk: I ran some water through the system with plans to clean in the morning with hot water and my choice of cleaner.

So I recirculated the cleaner through the pumps and kettles. Instead of rinsing the kettle and then recirculating water through the pumps I simply ran the hose (has a female camlock on it) through the pump from the outlet side (pump head oriented vertically) to rinse it out. Doing this of course spins the pump in reverse (power was off). Will running the pump in reverse damage it? This was maybe all of 5 seconds, I didn't even clamp the camlock down.
 
30Bones said:
Maybe an odd question. After my brew night Friday night :drunk: I ran some water through the system with plans to clean in the morning with hot water and my choice of cleaner.

So I recirculated the cleaner through the pumps and kettles. Instead of rinsing the kettle and then recirculating water through the pumps I simply ran the hose (has a female camlock on it) through the pump from the outlet side (pump head oriented vertically) to rinse it out. Doing this of course spins the pump in reverse (power was off). Will running the pump in reverse damage it? This was maybe all of 5 seconds, I didn't even clamp the camlock down.
Click to expand...

Wont hurt anything at all....these are not DC motors with permanent magnets that will generate power when spun. :)
We have a number of customers at water treatment plants that use our pumps for sampling....when not in use some of the city water pressure runs through the pump and spins them....been running like that for years with no ill effects.
 
How long can the pumps be continuously run for? I'm looking at a room temperature application where I will have the pump running to recirculate for 24-48 hrs
 
I did a sous vide lamb roast for 7 days straight leading up to Easter with my 5 year old pump. Piece of cake. I have a direct fire RIMS type of setup.

That meat melted in your mouth. Literally...
 
They're designed for continuous operation 24/7/365. I believe he said they had one running for several years in their testing lab.
 
I had my brew stand disassembled for paint and while reassembling it last night I decided to remove the pump heads to see if anything is left behind out of paranoia (I leave my valves open for 1-2 days after flushing). Good to know they were spotless inside. :)
 
Yep, as mentioned above. the pumps are made for 24/7/365 operation. The last 809 pump we had on our life test rig was 13yrs old. Only reason we took it off was to start a new test on another model that we are testing a new motor with.
Oldest running pump we have right now is a series 5.5 that was started back in 1992 :)
 
Need a replacement motor. Do I spin CW or CCW? Is the shaft 5/16 or 1/4? older 809 pump fasco 0809-0123-1000
 
The 809-HS is rated to draw 1.4 amps according to the specs. Is that the maximum or continuous duty? What size fuse would you recommend when the pump is connected through a switch in a control panel? I want to ensure that I size the fuse to accommodate maximum startup draw. Thanks!
 
grathan said:
Need a replacement motor. Do I spin CW or CCW? Is the shaft 5/16 or 1/4? older 809 pump fasco 0809-0123-1000
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply...i was off all last week.
That motor is still available if you want it.
But to answer your questions:
it spins CW if looking at the shaft side.....and CCW if you are looking at the back of the motor at the fan blades.
And the shaft is 1/4"
 

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