Ah, I did not know they were that heavy.
Poll: Do you have, or plan to get, an electric car?
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They generally run lighter, but mine is a 3 seater with a supercharged car engine.
Yeah, and I'm just guessing. I'm an electrical engineer, not mechanical lol.
But I'm guessing that for primarily road trip / highway miles without a lot of stop/start, the weight and rolling friction isn't as significant. And despite a jet ski "looking" aerodynamic, the Cd of that trailer as atrocious compared to a very slippery Tesla.
I’d originally typed out something similar to that last part but deleted it since aerodynamics are certainly not in my wheelhouse.
Basically, “the front is high and sloped, and I tow with the cover off but the trailer is probably bad because of the air flowing in and out after coming from under the car.”
Basically, “the front is high and sloped, and I tow with the cover off but the trailer is probably bad because of the air flowing in and out after coming from under the car.”
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Aerodynamics can be deceiving (said the Aero Engineer wannabe who changed majors). I once saw an analysis of the best way to orient a rowboat on top of a station wagon (remember what those things were?).
Intuitively you’d think it would be “inverted, with bow facing front of the vehicle.” Only partially correct. Inverted, yes, but total drag was actually less with the flat transom facing forward. Planform drag was obviously greater but interference drag was less due to smoother airflow past the backward facing bow. The wind tunnel film showed a lot of compression wave buildup with the stern facing forward, but not as much as you’d think. With the stern facing aft there was significant turbulent airflow spilling over the back of the inverted transom, especially as velocity increased, as opposed to the smooth slipstreaming when the ‘pointy end’ faced aft.
Dt was less, since it is the sum of all “drags” included, not just planform drag. Kinda’ like area rule for supersonic flight, which seems like skin friction drag would make the coke bottle shape of the fuselage less efficient.
Weird science, not what I’d have suspected.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
So originally, I rejected the EV idea, too expensive, too complicated, many unknowns, doesn't fit my driving needs, blah blah blah.....
But the more I'm thinking about it, the more I think maybe it could work for me.
I've bought lots of used cars over the years, but I just don't think a used EV is the right move for me right now.
Spending $40-$50k on a Tesla just seems too big of a jump for me, so I'm looking at the Hyundai Kona.
They've been selling them since 2019, so I guess the bugs have been worked out?
The range works for me.
The price is lower than the Tesla. Not sure if any of the tax incentives apply.
So why or why not would this car be a good choice?
Note this would not be my only vehicle, but would be my main commuter car for now.
But the more I'm thinking about it, the more I think maybe it could work for me.
I've bought lots of used cars over the years, but I just don't think a used EV is the right move for me right now.
Spending $40-$50k on a Tesla just seems too big of a jump for me, so I'm looking at the Hyundai Kona.
They've been selling them since 2019, so I guess the bugs have been worked out?
The range works for me.
The price is lower than the Tesla. Not sure if any of the tax incentives apply.
So why or why not would this car be a good choice?
Note this would not be my only vehicle, but would be my main commuter car for now.
They don't, unfortunately. That can change year to year though. The gist is that the EV's have to be made in the US. The Bolt might be a consideration before they are all gone if the Tesla isn't doing it for you. Though, the Kona isn't exactly expensive and so the cost without credit might still be alright.
Look about half way down the page for the current cars: Here's every electric vehicle that currently qualifies for the US federal tax credit
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
I'll keep driving my gasoline cars before I buy a Big 3 EV. The big 3 have a miserable track record for reliability, quality and value and I don't see that changing anytime soon. However, GM is supposedly working with Honda on EVs and that might be something to keep an eye on.
Reportedly, Toyota will come out with some EVs by 2025. (many Toyotas sold in the US are also made in the USA) I think I'll just wait.
Reportedly, Toyota will come out with some EVs by 2025. (many Toyotas sold in the US are also made in the USA) I think I'll just wait.
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File this under the category of "Too Good to Be True", but I'd sure like it to be. Sort of like "Free Beer," only better. The source for this came from a CBS "60 Minutes" segment broadcast last night. The statistics are what I can remember from the program and may be not entirely accurate, but if not it's because of my fading memory rather than fan-boi exaggeration.
The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.
Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.
Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.
Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."
Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.
The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.
Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.
Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.
Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."
Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.
If this is true and accurate, that would be great!
If this were 50% true, that would still be good.
Knowing what I know about startup companies and technology, it has a far less than 50% chance of being true. And that doesn't mean 1/2 true, it means it is likely not true at all! There is an endless string of "entrepreneurs" who over hype ideas. I'll count these eggs when the chickens hatch!
Not for where I live. -40 winters turn the range into under 50% at best, and I do a lot of long distance driving. Horror stories about people having them here and doing the full butt clench trying to get home at night with the low battery warning and the speed restriction on. Boss lady had a brand new 2022 Audi SUV full electric for 3 weeks last winter, 2 weeks spent in the shop because they thought there was something wrong with it not doing 50 miles on a full charge. It was returned on week 3. Along with the limited charge stations, and the time to fully charge, I can see a normal 2 hour trip in a gas vehicle turning into a several hour trip waiting in line to charge in a full electric.
A two hour trip in a modern ev will mostly likely not need any charging at all.
Looks like you claim Winnipeg. Using weatherunderground to check out your weather this past winter.
Didn't get below 0°F until the very end of November. I'd say two cold snaps in December, but that doesn't amount to a third of the month with lows below -10°F. Looks like the last week of January you had another cold snap with more -10°F and below lows. That cold snap stuck around for a few days into February, and it looks like you ended that month with a total of 9 days with lows below -10°F. Your lows in March only dipped below -10°F a couple times, despite yo-yoing temps. I didn't notice any lows below -30°F for you, so maybe you're referring to wind chill?
We had a really nasty cold snap around Christmas. I would've loved to have chatted with a Bolt driver to hear what their range did. In March I did ask one driver about the winter and it's affect on his range in general. I forget his exact response, but I remember being pleasantly surprised at how well it performed. A lot depends on road conditions and the driver whether you drive ICE or BEV. My jeep consistently gets 4mpg better in the summer when I drive it.
I hope your charging infrastructure improves.
TwistedGray
El Jefe Brewing Company
Picked up another 
...I think my 4th or 5th this year 
...I think my 4th or 5th this year
speeding ticket? srsly, don't know what that meansPicked up another
TwistedGray
El Jefe Brewing Company
I wish. I regret not going for the 2016-2017 S instead of my 3. I love it, but I want an S badly.Rocket (Tesla)
I flip P100D's
Why?Rocket (Tesla)
I flip P100D's
Wears out the battery packs I bet 
TwistedGray
El Jefe Brewing Company
I swapped my S at the time with a 3 while someone and I were on a drive, and I wasn't really happy with the 3.
I like hunting for cars/deals.
Wears out the battery packs I bet
Lol, well that too of course
Rodrigue Planck
Active Member
I love electricity! I love cars!
Brewing is going electric, it's wonderful.
Ah, waiting hours to charge a vehicle?
Not really saving the environment (but it's so nice ya care!)
I have 2014 Honda Civic SI, it's among the greatest of internal combustion engines, it's powerful, economical (25K +42 dollars otd) and gets 29.3 mpg with spirited driving from an old fogey like me and handles like a dream.
Beware of mandates say I! If they are so good (remember CFC bulbs before LEDs? CFCs were mandated, what a disaster!) they should stand on their own. They can't possibly compete at this stage. Thanks for putting our tax dollars to help the rich afford em while they spit on plebes for wrecking the environment.
LOL, just in jest really. If you like em, get one. Not for me.
Brewing is going electric, it's wonderful.
Ah, waiting hours to charge a vehicle?
Not really saving the environment (but it's so nice ya care!)
I have 2014 Honda Civic SI, it's among the greatest of internal combustion engines, it's powerful, economical (25K +42 dollars otd) and gets 29.3 mpg with spirited driving from an old fogey like me and handles like a dream.
Beware of mandates say I! If they are so good (remember CFC bulbs before LEDs? CFCs were mandated, what a disaster!) they should stand on their own. They can't possibly compete at this stage. Thanks for putting our tax dollars to help the rich afford em while they spit on plebes for wrecking the environment
.LOL, just in jest really. If you like em, get one. Not for me.
I never wait. I plug in at home. It takes a grand total of 3 seconds (plug and unplug 3 seconds total). I don’t miss gas station visits - 3 min, 5 min, 10 min - whichever it is its a waste of time compared to waking up full every day.
Lots of EV owners plug in overnight while their car is just sitting around anyway.
While the environment is a topic closely related to EVs, that's really not a topic for this thread.
I think the best comment I've read here that touches on the environment that didn't really cross the line was that if gas/diesel car engines were really that efficient, we'd run our houses on them and not plug into the grid.
Less than 30mpg? Good grief, I can get that from my Jeep. I don't call that efficient. I got about that from a Pontiac that was 10 years older than your Honda.
Government regulation is another topic we try to avoid outside of the Debate section. I've personally gone to the trouble of avoiding mentioning EV tax incentives to avoid that topic here. The furthest I think I, personally, would go on that topic today is: I like to say about people that as a group or population grows, the number of sweeping generalizations that can be made about them plummets, and I think something similar can be said about regulations in general. There are lots of them, some are good, some are bad, and a lot aren't worth getting worked up about.
Thank you for your approval, I guess.
Hate to break it to you but these talking points are regurgitated so regularly, across so many platforms, in near-lockstep wording, that I’ve come to immediately assume they’re paid copy and paste postings.
Rodrigue Planck
Active Member
Hate all ya want, but if you can show me where my words are regurgitated (Meaning not my own words), please show me! I'd be enthralled to know my views don't come from me!
I guess, I should just shut up and pay my taxes so people who look down on my view can feel better about how much smarter they are than the plebes. Tongue in cheek but, if EV owners paid their own way without money from fellow citizens, I'd appreciate it.
I don't live in California. I don't pay close attention to what they do.
Again, regulations are a topic for a thread in Debate. Same with firearms.
Nope, not at all. However this thread is really not the place for this discussion in the slightest.
And if the discussion is moved elsewhere, I think you'll find people wanting to engage in real conversation, in detail, and not do drive-by drop-offs of common talking points
Is it save to assume you believe gas prices aren't subsidized?
I'm going to attempt to speed things along here. The U.S. subsidizes gasoline.
Let's move on from government regulations and subsidies.
I can change it up. I ran a battery health test on my car last night into this morning. Owners tend to use the Tessie app for this but I went through the car’s “secret” service menu.
After running the battery down to nearly 0%, then charging back to 100%, it reported a battery health of 87%. That’s not great, but still way under the 30% threshold for a warranty replacement claim.
I have about 65,000 miles left on my battery warranty so I will run it again in 6 months or so to see how it fairs.
13% degradation is above the average of 2.5% per year but still doesn’t affect me at all. My daily drives occasionally touch 100-125 miles due to work, still well within the range of the car, even in the dead of winter or height of summer. It still easily accomplishes my towing needs as well.
After running the battery down to nearly 0%, then charging back to 100%, it reported a battery health of 87%. That’s not great, but still way under the 30% threshold for a warranty replacement claim.
I have about 65,000 miles left on my battery warranty so I will run it again in 6 months or so to see how it fairs.
13% degradation is above the average of 2.5% per year but still doesn’t affect me at all. My daily drives occasionally touch 100-125 miles due to work, still well within the range of the car, even in the dead of winter or height of summer. It still easily accomplishes my towing needs as well.
not in the winter. like i said 65km trip, needed to be charged at the end of that, and the way back had a low battery warning and reduced speed limiter on. Even Audi thought there was something wrong. They took the vehicle back.
Then there was an issue with the car, not the overall technology.
The first road trip I took in my Tesla was in the heart of winter last year. We drove through near-blinding snow in PA and still easily made it from my house to Binghampton, NY, 189 miles, without charging.
I'd feel certain they are right. Here in MN we can see -20F / -30C or so occasionally, and all the Tesla owning coworkers are still driving. I have chatted with them and been friends with one for like 30 years, and the range is very definitely reduced but nowhere near that far down.
An EV might not be for you, of course, it's fine. But that Audi you reference is an outlier for sure.
A little OT pendantry: There is no "P" in Binghamton (former Endicott resident.)
Brew on
I always friggin’ do that lolA little OT pendantry: There is no "P" in Binghamton (former Endicott resident.)
Brew on
Time for a reminder that political discussions are allowed only in the "Debate" forum. Since this thread is not in the Debate forum, no political commentary is allowed. Some posts have been getting too political here lately, and have been deleted.
Things that are not ok to discuss here:
HBT Moderator
Things that are not ok to discuss here:
- Merits of public policies encouraging/mandating EVs. Simple statements about what policies exist are allowed.
- Climate change.
- Public policies unrelated to EVs.
HBT Moderator
I’m at a charging stop now, on my way to southern Virginia.
TwistedGray
El Jefe Brewing Company
Removing the vinyl wrap...why wrap over this gorgeous red!
He traffics in Teslas so I bet that was somebody's cosmetic wrap coming off...
Cheers!
Cheers!
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