Pliny the Younger Clone
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Ha, you're THAT guy. I love your double jack clone!
I read this thread months ago, and after all the hype with PTY this year, I decided I was going to attempt this as my first PM. There's a lot of new info since I read this last, and it answered a lot of my questions, but I've never done PM before. If I was going to use 6 pounds of 2-row and 8 oz of Crystal 15, based on >2 quarts per pound, I would need to use over 3.25 gallons of water. I only have a 5 gallon pot and a 1 gallon pot, so I assume I would just put the grains in a mesh bag in my 5 gallon pot with 4 gallons of water, bring it up to 145*, keep it there for 75-90 minutes, remove the bag, add enough water to bring it up to 5 gallons, boil, add LME, do the hop additions during the 90 minute boil, and add the dextrose at flame out. Could I use less 2-row and do I need to sparge after the mash?
I also had a question about yeast. I have an 11.5g packet of S-04. Is that a good strain or should I go with US-05 or WLP090. Either way I would have to make a starter because for a 4 gallon 1.088 OG batch (I've found that using 5 gallons over a 90 minute boil leaves me with ~4 gallons) I'd need at least 240 billion cells pitching at 0.75 million cells/ml/degree plato, however I think for a beer this big I would need to pitch at 1.0 cells/ml/degree plato, which is 300 billion cells for a 4 gallon batch.
In regard to these questions, I've been getting very good attenuation with extra light LME and Wyeast 1272, which only claims 72-76% attenuation. I recently got a 1.080 OG, 187 IBU DIPA down to 1.010 after a week in primary and 5 days of secondary/dry hopping, so I'd think adding dextrose and a better attenuating yeast could get me from 1.088 to 1.008, and I wouldn't have to use as much 2-row malt.
I also had a question about yeast. I have an 11.5g packet of S-04. Is that a good strain or should I go with US-05 or WLP090. Either way I would have to make a starter because for a 4 gallon 1.088 OG batch (I've found that using 5 gallons over a 90 minute boil leaves me with ~4 gallons) I'd need at least 240 billion cells pitching at 0.75 million cells/ml/degree plato, however I think for a beer this big I would need to pitch at 1.0 cells/ml/degree plato, which is 300 billion cells for a 4 gallon batch.
In regard to these questions, I've been getting very good attenuation with extra light LME and Wyeast 1272, which only claims 72-76% attenuation. I recently got a 1.080 OG, 187 IBU DIPA down to 1.010 after a week in primary and 5 days of secondary/dry hopping, so I'd think adding dextrose and a better attenuating yeast could get me from 1.088 to 1.008, and I wouldn't have to use as much 2-row malt.
midfielder5
Well-Known Member
Matt- look at BIAB, late extract additions [certainly DON'T boil all the LME for 90 min (yuck carmelization)] and Pliny uses an american ale yeast not an English yeast (S-04). and NO starters for dry yeast-- you buy two packets if necessary. If you don't know wth I am talking about, start a new thread for beginner process questions in the beginner forum.
cheers, Wendy
cheers, Wendy
I've read quite a few threads about stove top BIAB, but everyone is doing it a little differently. I wanted to find out if it was recommended to do a sparge, mash out, or just forget that entirely and only hang/squeeze out the bag. I also wanted to see if the Crystal 15 should be treated differently or if it was fine to throw both grains together. From what I had read in this thread a few months back, I thought I could just do a 30 minute PM of Crystal 40 and Carapils at 150* and substitute extra light LME for all the 2-row, but since scottland says bobbrews is a pro at PM, I figured I would go with his advice. He is recommending adding all the extract at boil start, and I've done 90 minute boils with extract and they seemed fine, however I think your recommendation to add the extract later in the boil is a great idea because it should increase the IBUs from my 90 minute addition, thus I will be able to use less hops. Would you recommend adding it at 60 minutes, 45 minutes, or 30 minutes?
I'm going to go with the WLP090 at 300 billion cells for 4 gallons, I've always used liquid yeast anyway and really wanted to give that one a try. I've heard it is not recommended to make a starter from dry yeast, but I'm not sure why that is and assumed it could be done if one really wanted to. I got the S-04 as a back-up, but have never had to use it. At the time I thought it had 20 billion cells per gram as per Jamil's calculator, and thus thought it could handle a 5 gallon batch, but it may have as few as 6 billion cells per gram, thus having 69 billion total. At this point I think I'm just going to use it in a 1 gallon DIPA to see what I think. I've been doing a lot of one gallon batches to compare hops, so maybe I'll start comparing yeasts that way now.
I'm going to go with the WLP090 at 300 billion cells for 4 gallons, I've always used liquid yeast anyway and really wanted to give that one a try. I've heard it is not recommended to make a starter from dry yeast, but I'm not sure why that is and assumed it could be done if one really wanted to. I got the S-04 as a back-up, but have never had to use it. At the time I thought it had 20 billion cells per gram as per Jamil's calculator, and thus thought it could handle a 5 gallon batch, but it may have as few as 6 billion cells per gram, thus having 69 billion total. At this point I think I'm just going to use it in a 1 gallon DIPA to see what I think. I've been doing a lot of one gallon batches to compare hops, so maybe I'll start comparing yeasts that way now.
Don't use LME. Use Extra Light or Light DME based on American 2-row Pale. You don't need carapils when using extract. Scott already mentioned that his attempt was a little fuller than the real beer, and he used a very minimal amount of carapils for an all-grain batch despite mashing very low.
Normally, when I brew Partial Mash, I add most of the DME at flameout. But for a beer like this which is so dependent on a set hop bill at a certain gravity, it would probably be wise to not mess with the early/middle hop amounts too much. If you change the hop bill or reduce the boil length, then DME could feasibly be added at flameout instead, but you will have something less like the real PtY since you now changed almost everything about it.
I don't think 6 lbs. of light DME at boil start would caramelize too much for the worse. With Crystal 15 instead of 40, you should have 7-8 SRM even with a 90 minute boil. Just be sure to do a full volume boil (no top off water). I think the beer would taste worse if you began the 90 minute boil at 1.060 OG, and proceeded to add 300 IBUs, and another 50 IBUs at 45 minutes... only ending up at 1.089 OG at 0 minutes, when you added the rest of the fermentables.
Normally, when I brew Partial Mash, I add most of the DME at flameout. But for a beer like this which is so dependent on a set hop bill at a certain gravity, it would probably be wise to not mess with the early/middle hop amounts too much. If you change the hop bill or reduce the boil length, then DME could feasibly be added at flameout instead, but you will have something less like the real PtY since you now changed almost everything about it.
I don't think 6 lbs. of light DME at boil start would caramelize too much for the worse. With Crystal 15 instead of 40, you should have 7-8 SRM even with a 90 minute boil. Just be sure to do a full volume boil (no top off water). I think the beer would taste worse if you began the 90 minute boil at 1.060 OG, and proceeded to add 300 IBUs, and another 50 IBUs at 45 minutes... only ending up at 1.089 OG at 0 minutes, when you added the rest of the fermentables.
Topping off with plain water will (IMO) kill a hop forward beer like this; I would strongly advise against it.
Use your larger main kettle to hold your 168 F sparge water (which will also be the rest of your start boil volume).
Use a smaller kettle to mash in (BIAB) around 144-145 F.
After the 60-90 minute mash, transfer the bag to the large kettle and perform a dunk sparge. Let drip drain as much as you can and then place the bag in a large bowl. It will continue to drain as you bring your mashed wort and sparge water collectively up to boil. You can add any remnants to the main kettle.
Don't add your hop extract (or pellets if using) until you have a full rolling boil. You don't want to FWH this beer. And if using pellets over extract, a strong hot break will eliminate any harsh tannins released by the hops.
Use your larger main kettle to hold your 168 F sparge water (which will also be the rest of your start boil volume).
Use a smaller kettle to mash in (BIAB) around 144-145 F.
After the 60-90 minute mash, transfer the bag to the large kettle and perform a dunk sparge. Let drip drain as much as you can and then place the bag in a large bowl. It will continue to drain as you bring your mashed wort and sparge water collectively up to boil. You can add any remnants to the main kettle.
Don't add your hop extract (or pellets if using) until you have a full rolling boil. You don't want to FWH this beer. And if using pellets over extract, a strong hot break will eliminate any harsh tannins released by the hops.
Thanks for the advice, it makes sense that messing with boil OG will mess the flavor, but why is DME so much better than LME? I thought DME was just LME that was dried out. Also, my small kettle is only 1 gallon, so there is no way I could mash 6.5 pounds of grain in it. After the 144* mash, would it work well to add the full boil volume to the wort, heat it up to 168*, and do the dunk sparge? If not, is there a better way to do it using the 1 gallon kettle?
DME caramelizes less and you get more bang for your buck with it since there's less retained water. It also has a longer shelf life. And to me, less extract twang...
I'm not sure I understand you on the last part. If you don't have a kettle or cooler big enough to mash at least 6 lbs. of grain in, then I wouldn't even attempt this beer. A pure extract brew or a severly limited partial mash won't work. Partial Mash of 6 lbs. would be the bottom limit and even then you won't attenuate as much as all grain.
I'm not sure I understand you on the last part. If you don't have a kettle or cooler big enough to mash at least 6 lbs. of grain in, then I wouldn't even attempt this beer. A pure extract brew or a severly limited partial mash won't work. Partial Mash of 6 lbs. would be the bottom limit and even then you won't attenuate as much as all grain.
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
Northern's website says their hop extract (5ml "hopshots") are on backorder. Is there another source for these? If I had to use hop pellets in the recipe, how much would I use?
Target IBUs if using pellets. I believe scottland suggests 300 IBUs at 90 min and 45-50 IBUs at 45 min. When using pellets, you must wait for a vigorous boil before adding the first addition. HopShot doesn't contain the same amount of tannins as real hops, so you must eliminate the tannins with a good hot break if using pellets.
Get a bigger boil kettle for starters. They sell 8 gallon aluminum pots for about $40 at target and there are some great prices online. Ive used my 8 gal aluminum for almost 40 batches with zero issues. Good luck!
skeezerpleezer
Well-Known Member
fc36 said:
I bought an 8g "tamale steamer" at wal mart a couple years ago for $20. Worked fine for 80 batches or so till I upgraded to a 13g Stainless (for $27)
Where did you manage to find a 13 Gal SS kettle for $27? I want one! Heck, I want 3!
skeezerpleezer
Well-Known Member
fc36 said:
Shanghai. Just left there yesterday from another business trip and was gonna grab a few more but got lazy (drunk) so didn't go get them. Nice thick grade SS also. I am going back next month though, so hope to snag some more.
Anyway you'd be willing to ship one to Chicago? For a fee of course.
I have a 5 gallon kettle that is big enough to mash 6.5 lbs of grain, however I don't have a bigger kettle to do the dunk sparge. What I was asking was if I should just forget the dunk sparge or if it would work to add water to the mashed wort, heat it up to 168* and do the dunk sparge that way. If I should just forget the dunk sparge, maybe it would make more sense mash as much grain as I could with my 5 gallon kettle.
Also, at >2 quarts per pound of grain, you would need at least 3.25 gallons for the mash, so with a 5 gallon batch size, that would only leave 1.75 gallons for the dunk sparge.
skeezerpleezer
Well-Known Member
fc36 said:
I will let you know if I can get some extras. If i can, I will be in Chicago for DLD, so could bring one. I will IM you if I score some.
sybesbrew
Well-Known Member
I've been eyeing this beer for awhile and would love to do a clone. It seems like most attempts have been done with a kegging system. I do not have a keg setup yet (hopefully in the next year..,). Would this be worth doing if I bottle conditioned the beer? or would it not be worth it (due to loss of hop aroma waiting for the bottle to carb up).
hop shots being delivered today...going to make a trip to the homebrew store today, start my starter tomorrow and should be brewing this beer friday night...i'll keep an update going, thanks for all those who helped me convert this to a PM recipe
I am sure that the beer would be great bottled. It just might not be as hoppy as when it just drops bright in the keg. One thing is to condition it in a war area so that it will carbonate quicker. Duval uses a warm room to help carb their beer.
That's a fair amount over 1.088. Do you think you lost a lot of water from the boil or did you get way more efficiency than you were expecting from the grain? Did you measure gravity after the dunk sparge before adding any extract because if you didn't you could have very easily added more extract than you needed?
I did a version of this yesterday. After doing much research on a parti gyle, my buddy and I decided to try it. Now I will say I've never had PTY before and everyone talks about it in high regard so why not.
18# 2-Row
12oz CaraPils
6.5oz Crystal 40
1# Dextrose
Mashed with 5 gal of RO water for 60mins at 148*F. Got 2 gallons from first runnings. Batch sparged with 5.25 gallon at 171*F for 10mins. Total preboil yield was 7.25 gallons. We added a pack of burton water salts and the dextrose at beginning of boil. We didn't have hop shots so we ran with a ton of hops.
4oz Columbus 15.7% AA @ 60
4oz Columbus 15.7% AA @ 45
1.5 oz Simcoe 14.5% AA @ 30
2.5oz Simcoe 14.5% AA @ 0
1.5oz Cascade 5.7% AA @ 0
1oz Amarillo 13.2% AA @ 0
1 oz Magnum 11.6%AA @ 0
Total yield: 5.25 gallons
OG: 1.094
2 packs of US-05 pitched at 60*F.
The gravity sample was great by the way.
With the leftover grain we decided to make a parti gyle. We steeped 2# chocolate malt, 12 oz Crystal 40, 4oz Roasted Barley and 4oz CaraFoam in 2 gallons water at 150*F for 30 mins. When we sparged our PTY we heated 5 gallons of water to 150*F. When the PTY finished sparging, we added the 5 gallons of water to the run along with the 2 gallons of steeped grain water. Closed the lid and waited 30 mins. We drained the run and waited for our PTY to finish and started with our stout boil. Preboil OG: 1.030 for the stout. We added 1.5# DME and finished with an OG: 1.054. The stout had Cascade hops added along with 12oz of Lactose.
All in all we had a very successful brew day and this was my first attempt at such math with volume and we nailed everything. Our brew day started at 11:30am and finished at 5:15pm. Not a bad day.
Cheers.
18# 2-Row
12oz CaraPils
6.5oz Crystal 40
1# Dextrose
Mashed with 5 gal of RO water for 60mins at 148*F. Got 2 gallons from first runnings. Batch sparged with 5.25 gallon at 171*F for 10mins. Total preboil yield was 7.25 gallons. We added a pack of burton water salts and the dextrose at beginning of boil. We didn't have hop shots so we ran with a ton of hops.
4oz Columbus 15.7% AA @ 60
4oz Columbus 15.7% AA @ 45
1.5 oz Simcoe 14.5% AA @ 30
2.5oz Simcoe 14.5% AA @ 0
1.5oz Cascade 5.7% AA @ 0
1oz Amarillo 13.2% AA @ 0
1 oz Magnum 11.6%AA @ 0
Total yield: 5.25 gallons
OG: 1.094
2 packs of US-05 pitched at 60*F.
The gravity sample was great by the way.
With the leftover grain we decided to make a parti gyle. We steeped 2# chocolate malt, 12 oz Crystal 40, 4oz Roasted Barley and 4oz CaraFoam in 2 gallons water at 150*F for 30 mins. When we sparged our PTY we heated 5 gallons of water to 150*F. When the PTY finished sparging, we added the 5 gallons of water to the run along with the 2 gallons of steeped grain water. Closed the lid and waited 30 mins. We drained the run and waited for our PTY to finish and started with our stout boil. Preboil OG: 1.030 for the stout. We added 1.5# DME and finished with an OG: 1.054. The stout had Cascade hops added along with 12oz of Lactose.
All in all we had a very successful brew day and this was my first attempt at such math with volume and we nailed everything. Our brew day started at 11:30am and finished at 5:15pm. Not a bad day.
Cheers.
Brewed this clone with the partial mash recipe listed in the middle of the forum. Everything went smoothly except my boil off rate was higher than usual and I ended up 1 gallon short and ~1.100 OG. Because I've never had the actual beer, I am not shooting to match the taste exactly so I added 1 gallon of boiled->cooled water to the wort and OG decreased to 1.0907. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.
Ok reason why I am posting is to ask about the dry hop process a bit. I will be using a keg for a secondary for the first time so I can purge O2 when needed as well as add/remove dry hop additions as required. What is the best method that you guys have found for dry hopping a keg when you have to remove the dry hops and add more in 3-4 times? It seems most people just leave their dry hop additions in and don't have to worry about removing them. Have you guys found the paint strainer method to work well with fishing line? Or is there some other method that you guys have found to maximize hop oil extraction during this step?
I would just go the paint strainer/fishing line technique but I want to make sure there is not some other more effective method. (I would love to buy the stainless steel basket like Scott uses but don't have the funds yet) Thanks!
Ok reason why I am posting is to ask about the dry hop process a bit. I will be using a keg for a secondary for the first time so I can purge O2 when needed as well as add/remove dry hop additions as required. What is the best method that you guys have found for dry hopping a keg when you have to remove the dry hops and add more in 3-4 times? It seems most people just leave their dry hop additions in and don't have to worry about removing them. Have you guys found the paint strainer method to work well with fishing line? Or is there some other method that you guys have found to maximize hop oil extraction during this step?
I would just go the paint strainer/fishing line technique but I want to make sure there is not some other more effective method. (I would love to buy the stainless steel basket like Scott uses but don't have the funds yet) Thanks!
Scotland did you condition and fine the beer in the same keg that you used to dry hop in?
scottland
Well-Known Member
Ya, all in the same keg. The 'kegged' date on my blog is the day I dropped the keg into the kegerator.
Jglazer: I would just leave them in. I've done a few beers with 3-4 dry hop additions, and if there is any advantage to pull them out, it's pretty small.
In the future, I won't go to the trouble of removing them.
Cool I was just worried about having too much sludge at the bottom of the keg. I did use the dry hopper like you did and dumped the hoops after each dose.
Hmm everything I've read says that if you leave them in too long they start to omit undesirable flavors. Here is my game plan which is still up in the air:
Dry Hop #1 in primary (8 days, loose pellets)
Dry Hop #2 in primary (4 days, loose pellets, leaving dry hop #1 in as well because they went in loose)
Transfer to secondary keg
Dry Hop #3 in keg (4 days, in a bag so they can be removed)
Dry Hop #4 in keg (4 days, in a bag so they can be removed)
Carb and serve
I was thinking (and correct me if this doesnt make sense because I am still fairly new) that adding the first 2 dry hop additions in the primary would actually help the yeast clean up after itself because I've read that adding things (I can't find it now but I think I remember reading some sort of wood) to the primary for the yeast to stick onto will increase its surface area, thus adding pellet hops for the yeast to cling to and do its clean up better.
Just a thought, I obviously need to do more research
Dry Hop #1 in primary (8 days, loose pellets)
Dry Hop #2 in primary (4 days, loose pellets, leaving dry hop #1 in as well because they went in loose)
Transfer to secondary keg
Dry Hop #3 in keg (4 days, in a bag so they can be removed)
Dry Hop #4 in keg (4 days, in a bag so they can be removed)
Carb and serve
I was thinking (and correct me if this doesnt make sense because I am still fairly new) that adding the first 2 dry hop additions in the primary would actually help the yeast clean up after itself because I've read that adding things (I can't find it now but I think I remember reading some sort of wood) to the primary for the yeast to stick onto will increase its surface area, thus adding pellet hops for the yeast to cling to and do its clean up better.
Just a thought, I obviously need to do more research
I would advise:
Dry Hop #1 in primary @ 68 F (3-4 days, loose pellets) [rack off of trub and hops before adding stage 2]
Dry Hop #2 in secondary @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before adding stage 3]
Dry Hop #3 in secondary @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before adding stage 4]
*Cold-Crash and add bloomed gelatin solution to 34 F wort for 2-3 days
Dry Hop #4 in keg @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before carbing]
*Carb and serve
Dry Hop #1 in primary @ 68 F (3-4 days, loose pellets) [rack off of trub and hops before adding stage 2]
Dry Hop #2 in secondary @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before adding stage 3]
Dry Hop #3 in secondary @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before adding stage 4]
*Cold-Crash and add bloomed gelatin solution to 34 F wort for 2-3 days
Dry Hop #4 in keg @ 68 F (3-4 days, bagged pellets) [remove before carbing]
*Carb and serve
Vinney from RR recommends getting most of the yeast out of suspension before adding your dry hops. With this beer I cold crashed in the primary for 2 days then racked into a keg to secondary the beer under a CO2 blanket.
If you leave hops in too long you will start to get grassy/vegetal flavors, but 8 days isn't too long (but I may cut it to 6). In terms of dry-hopping clearing yeast, your idea makes sense but I think the results would be negligible. Crash cool and use gelatin, works great.
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Here is my finished PTY. It’s is tasting pretty damn closeto the real thing experienced back in late February. This brew finished at1.010. I owe a great deal of gratitude to Scott for his awesome efforts. Theonly think I might do differently is to try and get the FG down to 1.008. Itcould finish a bit dryer. To that end, I’m thinking of the following changes;
1) Increase WLP090 yeast starter from 370 B cellsby 10-15%
2) Second dose of O2 at 12-18 hours
3) Increase corn sugar from 1.33 to 1.5 with halfin boil and half in fermenter after3 days
4) Decrease 2-row to maintain OG around 1.089
5) I might play around with the dry hop schedule toreduce time to finished beer
Any thoughts?
scottland
Well-Known Member
That's awesome! Your changes look good. This is one of those recipes were every brewer needs to take their own appropriate steps to get the degree of attenuation needed.
What works on one system might not work on another. But ya, 1.006-1.008 is where we need to be. Mine was 1.010 also, and it's close enough to taste amazing. It could be a hint drier though.
Enjoy it quickly. I'm only 3 weeks in the keg, and a good chunk of hop aroma has already faded.
What works on one system might not work on another. But ya, 1.006-1.008 is where we need to be. Mine was 1.010 also, and it's close enough to taste amazing. It could be a hint drier though.
Enjoy it quickly. I'm only 3 weeks in the keg, and a good chunk of hop aroma has already faded.
