Please critique my first recipe (saison)

[Redleg84]

Updated:

Saison
All grain
SG 1.054
IBU 22.6
3.8 srm
Mash @148 for 60mins

9 lb (83.7%) Pilsner
1.75 lb (16.3%) white wheat malt

60mins- .50 oz Cascade
5mins- .75oz Cascade
Flameout (10min steep )- 1oz Citra
Dry hop (5 days)- .5 oz Citra
3711 yeast (pitch and hold ~70° and let rise after a few days)

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Original post :

This is my first shot at creating a recipe and wondered if I could get some input.

I recently had a saison that had a fruity taste to it that I really enjoyed. Now that I bottled up my IPA I thought I'd use the hops I have left over to make a siason for summer. I mostly have Cascade and Citra, possibly a small amount of chinook. I can always purchase other hops as well if I really need to.

Saison
All grain
SG 1.060
IBU 26.9
4 srm

9 lb (75%) Pilsner
.5 lb (4.2%) Flaked Wheat
2.5 lb (20.8%) wheat malt

60mins- .75oz Cascade
5mins- .75oz Cascade
Flameout (10min steep )- .75oz Citra
Dry hop (3-5days)- 1oz Cascade (2oz?)

Wlp585 or 3711 yeast

Is this a good way to hop the beer and get the flavors and aromas of the hops without being overly bitter? I know this isn't a traditional style saison, I'm chasing the citrus/fruit.

Any ideas?

 

[bkboiler]

i think that hop combo will taste great! honestly though i would use the cascade at 60 and 5 and then citra for flameout and dryhop...
i'm waiting for this to finish bottle carbing right now!
the OP and a couple others who brewed this had great success dry hopping with Motueka!
let us know how it turns out!!

 

[Redleg84]

Ok, I can dry hop with citra that wouldn't be a problem.

The grain bill look adequate?

 

[JKaranka]

I'd halve the wheat malt and bring the OG down a bit (to maybe 1.055). It will attenuate a lot, and at some point saisons become less refreshing and a bit harsh.

 

[Redleg84]

Wasn't too sure how much wheat to add. How's this look?

Saison
All grain
SG 1.054
IBU 28.1
3.8 srm
Mash @148 for 60mins

9 lb (83.7%) Pilsner
1.75 lb (16.3%) white wheat malt

60mins- .75oz Cascade
5mins- .75oz Cascade
Flameout (10min steep )- .75oz Citra
Dry hop (3-5 days)- 2oz Citra
Wlp585 or 3711 yeast

 

[jerbrew]

Recipe looks fine. A bit complicated in the hop schedule for my taste in a saison but that's my personal preference. However, I think you need to address fermentation schedule. Are you going to let this free rise? Are you going to hold it at a lower temperature say 68F? I ask because that's going to dictate what flavor profile you're going to get from the yeast. If you're going to let it free rise or help it get into the high 70's or 80s I wouldn't get set on doing a dry hop or at least a big dry hop. The intense citrus from the citra might muddle the yeast character a saison fermented at high temps is known for and I would expect especially from 585 vs the 3711. Also, 3711 is a beast and will ferment that grain bill to or below 1.0004 especially mashing at 148 while 585 is going to be a bit kinder and leave you with something to chew on. You're choosing between two different style of saison yeast.

OK advice, If I was planning to dry hop this I would use the 3711 and try to keep the fermentation in the high 60's low 70's for a couple (2-3) days and then let it rise. 3711 to me doesn't give off nearly as many esters as other saison yeasts do and even the phenolic character is subdued in that temp range but still ferments dry quickly and leaves an ambiguous "saison character" in the finished beer (not too dry or malty, not too penolic or estery, just kind of balanced). The esters from the 585 IMO would get in the way of the citra or vice versa and you'll end up with two competing focuses as opposed to a balanced saison. You could also just dry hop it a bit less for a hint and not a punch of citrus. My main concern would be keeping this beer from becoming a muddled mash up likening to an unbalanced Belgian IPA. Anyways, just some food for thought I like saisons to be simple in construction and let the yeast do all the talking but that's my style have fun and good luck.

 

[Redleg84]

I'll cut back on the dry hops, I went with the 2oz because that's what my IPA called for and I haven't had any other experience with it other than that. I don't want it overpowering everything, I guess I was assuming there is a bit of leeway with dry hops.

I'll use 3711 and follow those temps, which seem to be the consensus among those that brew with it. Should I heat it up or just let it go on it's own?

I really appreciate the feedback guys, it's hard to get an idea of how things will impact a recipe with my limited experience brewing. It still feels like a guessing game at this point.

 

[jerbrew]

Dialing the dry hop back is a good choice. I'd taste it about a week in and decide if you even want a dry hop and if you do maybe limit it to about 0.5 oz. keep it subdued and you'll be able to gauge what you want for next time.

As for the fermentation temp. I don't know what kind of control you have but What I usually do with 3711 is to keep it at 72 ish for 2-3 days and then let it get up as high as it can on its own.

 

[burninator]

I like dry hopped saisons, but I'd also suggest a light touch, especially with cascade. Let the yeast be the star.

 

[GrimBrewer]

Citra is stronger than Cascade, so I would rather dryhop a saison with cascade over citra. Otherwise you should really reduce the Citra dryhop volume.

Question to everyone: Why only use one type of hops at one stage?
Why not do a 2 to 1 Cascade and Citra at 5min and at flamout? So 0.5oz Cascade and 0.25oz citra or 0.4oz cascade and 0.35oz Citra.

 

[Redleg84]

My goal was to keep the bitterness down. Being that citra is stronger this seemed to be easier to obtain at flameout. Do you think I'd benefit from duel hopping at both intervals?

Here's what I'm currently looking at :

Saison
All grain
SG 1.054
IBU 22.6
3.8 srm
Mash @148 for 60mins

9 lb (83.7%) Pilsner
1.75 lb (16.3%) white wheat malt

60mins- .50 oz Cascade
5mins- .75oz Cascade
Flameout (10min steep )- 1oz Citra
Dry hop (5 days)- .5 oz Citra
3711 yeast (pitch and hold ~70° and let rise after a few days)

I brought the IBUs down a bit to the lower 20s and cut down the dry hop to .5oz of citra. I want to dry hop but I'm definitely going to use less than initially planned and taste a sample before adding anything.

What do you think?