Planning a 3 vessel system

[Jako]

I am building a brewery and starting to plan a few things out. I want a 3 vessel system and i plan on running gas. Its what i prefer. i already have the SS brew tech BME boil kettle and plan on getting a SS mash tun and basic kettle. But past that i am not sure what i need. i currently have a ghetto 3 tier system and use the same kettle as my HLT and boil kettle. i gravity feed into my mash tun then heat the water and sparge. i collect wort in a kettle and bucket then once the my kettle is empty i toss in the wort and start the boil..

my goal with my new system is so i don't have to lift a thing. I am having a pot filler installed with a RO system feeding the pot filler. i am looking for help and ideas on how to build this out. i also love to see build systems so please share.

 

[applescrap]

Some pics to get you going. I know some of these are electric but you need everything other than the fuel part.

 

[applescrap]

This thread came up below, 2500. It's something like Charlotte 3v system 2500

 

[Dland]

Or you could save a few grand and do something like this;

Have since converted to electric, but that's my rig when it was propane fired

 

[redllama]

Just the stand

A complete system

Just something to look at since I know you have some of the parts. Might be able to work with them to piece what you need together.

 

[Jako]

Thank you for the ideas. Buying used wouldn't be an awful idea. I could save a lot. So I looks like two pumps is the standard. Is a recirculating mash a must as well?

 

[Dland]

Recirc, is good to do if you are fly sparging. 10 min or so sets the grain bed and filters the wort some, makes wort coming out of MT to BK clearer.

You can use one pump if you do some gravity feed to MT from HLT during sparge. Put HLT up higher so it gravity feeds sparge water to MT.

That said, two pumps are nice if you don't want to move them around, and save time when you could have had two running. During sparge mostly, but sanitizing as well.

 

[Jako]

is a HERMS system over kill? i have never seen a gas system with a HERMS.

 

[Dland]

Not over kill, but not needed to make good beer.

If you get into brewing techniques further, you might want to precisely control mash temp.

I'm making better beer than I could have imagined without getting that complex though...and have a lot of control of mash temp because I know my system and understand the process

is a HERMS system over kill? i have never seen a gas system with a HERMS.

.

 

[Jako]

Not over kill, but not needed to make good beer.

If you get into brewing techniques further, you might want to precisely control mash temp.

I'm making better beer than I could have imagined without getting that complex though...and have a lot of control of mash temp because I know my system and understand the process



.

hmm now i am thinking might be the large amounts of caffeine...

couldn't this be done by direct heat and a recirculation on the mash to avoid hot spots?

 

[Dland]

You could recirc the mash though a coil in HLT. You could make a coil, or as I have tried, use and immersion chiller coil placed in HLT. The only draw back I see is inability to heat sparge water beyond mash temp while mashing.

I have to mention the heat control required to run a HERMS system is easier to achieve with electric.

The nice thing is, you can get as fancy as you want, or keep it simple.

 

[Jako]

What happened to the comment from the glycol guy?

 

[Jako]

You could recirc the mash though a coil in HLT. You could make a coil, or as I have tried, use and immersion chiller coil placed in HLT. The only draw back I see is inability to heat sparge water beyond mash temp while mashing.

I have to mention the heat control required to run a HERMS system is easier to achieve with electric.

The nice thing is, you can get as fancy as you want, or keep it simple.

Do you think I am making a big mistake not going electric? Should I do a duel system like an electric HLT and gas for boil kettle? I dont think it would be worth the cost at that point.

 

[Dland]

I would not call it a mistake. I brewed with gas for a while and the beer was fine. Depending on what kettles you get(or make), you can always add some tri clamp openings for heating elements later.

If you are just starting out, gas is less of an initial investment and not a bad way to learn. It also depends on how often you actually brew. Also if you have the electrical service to handle it. Two 30 amp 240V circuits is ideal, though one could get by with one 30. (A single 50 amp circuit and the right panel will also run two elements.)

But it cost me less than a $300 to make up the power cords, weld in the tri clamp ferules and buy the elements. I do my own wiring and had set up my shop for welders and the like. My controller was around $500, but many people make them for less.

I switched to electric mainly due to the high cost of propane where I am. But found there were several other benefits also: The ability to control water temps saves time, and hit strike and sparge temps precisely. The ease of boil, with a controller, and not having to worry much about boil overs. It is surprising how fast the response is to electric control during boil, when you turn controller up or down. I used to have to add fermcap to control foam, now I just turn controller down when rolling boil approaches.

It is cleaner, quieter, cheaper. No need to worry about fumes if you brew indoors. If I ever need to for some reason, I can always clamp off the element holes and fire up the old gas burners.

 

[Bobby_M]

No one ever regretted brewing electric and personally I do think it's a huge mistake to build for gas now. If it's a budget concern, you could build a high end eBIAB rig for the same cost as just your three vessels. Even if it's not a budget concern, I think an electric BIAB rig is the way to go.

 

[Pkrd]

What happened to the comment from the glycol guy?

It was spam.

 

[Dland]

It was spam.

Legit company it seems, but probably violating rules of forum where posted. May even have been human posted...but who knows these days.

 

[Blazinlow86]

No one ever regretted brewing electric and personally I do think it's a huge mistake to build for gas now. If it's a budget concern, you could build a high end eBIAB rig for the same cost as just your three vessels. Even if it's not a budget concern, I think an electric BIAB rig is the way to go.

I agree with Bobby. Unless your doing large 10+ gallon batches were dealing with a bag is too cumbersome ebiab is a great choice. Cheers

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

What are you planning for water treatment? Just dechlorination? Or do you have chloramine in your tapwater?

 

[Jako]

Maybe I will look into some electric options. At this point I would have to talk to the builder about adding the 240V plugs.

We have chloramines in the water. I plan on running a RO system to a pot filler.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

OK - make sure to address the chloramines with your RO prefilters. The filling of a container is easily automated (turning off the RO system when the container is full).

Russ

 

[sicktght311]

I built a 120v 3 vessel herms system for under $2000. Most likely closer to $1500 if you take out the stainless prep table and some of the other goodies i put into it.

If you research research research, do some price hunting, and get creative, a fully electric herms system is doable. 240v becomes necessary if you go above 5 gallon finished batch, or dont want to wait for your HLT water to heat at the beginning of the brew day

 

[Jako]

I built a 120v 3 vessel herms system for under $2000. Most likely closer to $1500 if you take out the stainless prep table and some of the other goodies i put into it.

If you research research research, do some price hunting, and get creative, a fully electric herms system is doable. 240v becomes necessary if you go above 5 gallon finished batch, or dont want to wait for your HLT water to heat at the beginning of the brew day

I was wondering if I needed 240v did you make your kettles?

 

[sicktght311]

I was wondering if I needed 240v did you make your kettles?

I used Concord 10 gallon kettles, using the TheElectricBrewery method of adding elements using gangboxes as enclosures. I'm using 1650watt elements. 1x in the boil kettle, 1x in the HLT. 25ft Blichmann herms coil in the HLT. Tan dc solar pump plumbed directly into the output of the HLT and then back to the top to whirlpool the water to keep the temperature even. Then i have a Mark II 25watt pump for my wort pump. 1/2" Silicone hoses with Quick Disconnects for all tubing. Boil kettle has an output, and a whirlpool port. Mash tun is a 10 gallon concord kettle with the concord false bottom, and just a silicone hose resting on the top of the grain bed for recirculation.

Controller is an Inkbird IPB16 that i modified converting the alarm port to a pump output with switch, and then a second output on the side for the other pump

 

[sicktght311]

Also heat up times arent terrible if you plan ahead. From groundwater temps to mash, it takes about 2 hours to heat the 8 gallons i have in my HLT + 4ish in the Mash Tun circulating through the herms coil. Another 15 minutes or so to raise from mash to mashout. Then my sparge takes about 45ish minutes, and i start heating the boil kettle once the element is covered, and generally i'll reach a boil within 45minutes pending i leave the lid on. Once i get to 212, i crack the lid and then go about my boil as usual

 

[Jako]

Okay... you guys got me thinking on electric. now i am worried gas would be to much heat on the walls, i removed the window from the brewery room and i am concerned i will die from gases now.... plus the control of an electric system just makes sense and i can walk away and not worry about burning down my new house.

 

[sicktght311]

Okay... you guys got me thinking on electric. now i am worried gas would be to much heat on the walls, i removed the window from the brewery room and i am concerned i will die from gases now.... plus the control of an electric system just makes sense and i can walk away and not worry about burning down my new house.

Ease of use, simplicity, and repeatable results are the main reason i went electric. I get up in the morning, fill my kettles, and flick on a switch. I can go about my morning making coffee, doing laundry, etc without having to pay attention to anything. During my 4-5 hour brew day, i'm only actually doing something maybe 1/4 of that time. The rest of it is spent sitting around while the system is doing its thing, whether thats recirulating the mash, sparging, heating up, boiling, etc.

 

[eric19312]

hmm now i am thinking might be the large amounts of caffeine...

couldn't this be done by direct heat and a recirculation on the mash to avoid hot spots?

I do this exactly on my three vessel. Works great. I keep flow at about 2 GPM during mash and have very stable temperatures and no scorching. Drop flow to about 0.5 GPM during lautering.

I designed it more or less after a gas tower of power (Blichmann) except I used a pilot light and thermocouple instead of their electric ignition. Used an auber PID in on/off mode to control a honeywell solenoid valve. Use an RTD temp probe placed immediately after the recirc pump to give the signal to the PID. This way I am not heating any part of the mash to a temperature over the control point. With good flow in the recirc I see little variation in mash temperatures between top of the mash and what is coming out the bottom.

 

[eric19312]

Finished reading the rest of the posts and see you are leaning to electric. Im a gas brewer and agree you should really consider electric. If you already have a builder involved in your house project now is the perfect time to get your wiring right including the plugs and the circuit service.

When you said you were brewing with gas you did not clarify propane vs natural gas. I brew natural gas and this solves many of the problems I previously had when dealing with propane. While NG is probably safer than propane from a ventilation point of view I'd still put this as a huge plus on the electric side. Just not an issue. Still brewing in a room with poor ventilation sounds like a bad idea. Need to vent both the steam and the heat.

Honestly if I had opportunity to build my brew room in some sort of new construction phase I can think of a whole lot of utilities I'd take care of even before I considered number of vessels and nuances such as RIMS vs HERMS. Is it too late to get a poured floor with a floor drain? How about some significant ventilation? Plenty of power...

 

[Jako]

I do this exactly on my three vessel. Works great. I keep flow at about 2 GPM during mash and have very stable temperatures and no scorching. Drop flow to about 0.5 GPM during lautering.

I designed it more or less after a gas tower of power (Blichmann) except I used a pilot light and thermocouple instead of their electric ignition. Used an auber PID in on/off mode to control a honeywell solenoid valve. Use an RTD temp probe placed immediately after the recirc pump to give the signal to the PID. This way I am not heating any part of the mash to a temperature over the control point. With good flow in the recirc I see little variation in mash temperatures between top of the mash and what is coming out the bottom.

sounds like a very cool build. this is what i wanted to do more or less.

so i talked to the builder about adding in a floor drain. he said he was concerned it would't function like i intended it to. so we decided for a large mop sink with a nice sprayer hose to clean everything.

As it sits right now since i emailed the builder this morning. We are adding in the wall a hole for a hood vent, 2 240V 30 amp plugs (this is 100$ cheaper then running 1 Natural gas line.) along the center of the wall for 7' it it will be that thing cut brick material. i figure it will help with heat and look nice. 7 can lights above and the floor will be wood looking tile for easy clean for when i spill. also a pot filler hooked up to a RO system so i can run my water off and not have to move or lift kettles full of water. Our house floor plan. has a huge cold storage so we moved the door from the hall way in the basement to the brewery.

I have the file of the floor plan i might ask the builder if he is okay with me sharing the basement plan.

 

[eric19312]

sounds like a very cool build. this is what i wanted to do more or less.

so i talked to the builder about adding in a floor drain. he said he was concerned it would't function like i intended it to. so we decided for a large mop sink with a nice sprayer hose to clean everything.

As it sits right now since i emailed the builder this morning. We are adding in the wall a hole for a hood vent, 2 240V 30 amp plugs (this is 100$ cheaper then running 1 Natural gas line.) along the center of the wall for 7' it it will be that thing cut brick material. i figure it will help with heat and look nice. 7 can lights above and the floor will be wood looking tile for easy clean for when i spill. also a pot filler hooked up to a RO system so i can run my water off and not have to move or lift kettles full of water. Our house floor plan. has a huge cold storage so we moved the door from the hall way in the basement to the brewery.

I have the file of the floor plan i might ask the builder if he is okay with me sharing the basement plan.

This sounds awesome. I'm jealous! Huge cold storage? What's that all about?

I think you will be happy with electric. There are other advantages than cost. If you control temps with a RIMS you can use your PID controller in true PID mode. Meaning the PID can tell the element to fire 25% if that is the right amount of heat to hold your set point. This is not option with gas at all (it is either on or off, never part way on) and I think it might be a little more complicated with HERMS (I guess with HERMS you control the temp in the HLT and leave the pump running all the time, need to make sure the HLT is well mixed, but again you should be able to take advantage of true PID mode on the element in the HLT).

Another issue with gas is the pilot light is finicky. When I am brewing with doors wide open it is easily extinguished by a breeze. I guess I need to add a wind screen. Possibly the Blichmann electronic ignition strategy is more reliable but I've had those on BBQs before and they never seem to work for long.

 

[Jako]

OK - make sure to address the chloramines with your RO prefilters. The filling of a container is easily automated (turning off the RO system when the container is full).

Russ

had a meeting with my builder today. he said he didn't understand what i wanted and told me to buy it and he will install. it will will be to the right of my brew stand with it running to a nicer looking hose bib that i can run a line into my pot. i decided to go simple and less fancy to avoid issues. i brew 5G batches currently but i might move up to 10. what do you think i will need GPH wise?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Let's start with the RO system you want. Once we know the capacity (gallons per day nameplate capacity), we can appropriately size any needed prefiltration. Are you thinking about sticking with a residential-scale (generally less 150 gpd or less)? Commercial RO's typically start at 500 gpd. We have a system in between those two ranges at 400 GPD, appropriately called "The Gapper."

In northern Utah your minimum winter water temperature will be around 47F. Remember that RO system output is dramatically affected by water pressure and water temperature. With your water temperature, to calculate how much an RO system will actually produce, take the nameplate capacity (for example, 500 gpd), and divide that by 1.84. So in the dead of winter a 500 gpd nameplate capacity system would actually produce 500/1.84 = 272 gpd.

Once you get over about 0.5 gpm feedwater flow (about 400 gpd actual permeate flow at 50% recovery), it can make sense to put a thermostatic blending valve in to warm the feedwater a bit before it goes into the system (including any prefiltration). This would obviously raise the cost of operation, but it will reduce the size (capacity) of the RO needed.

Russ

 

[Jako]

Let's start with the RO system you want. Once we know the capacity (gallons per day nameplate capacity), we can appropriately size any needed prefiltration. Are you thinking about sticking with a residential-scale (generally less 150 gpd or less)? Commercial RO's typically start at 500 gpd. We have a system in between those two ranges at 400 GPD, appropriately called "The Gapper."

In northern Utah your minimum winter water temperature will be around 47F. Remember that RO system output is dramatically affected by water pressure and water temperature. With your water temperature, to calculate how much an RO system will actually produce, take the nameplate capacity (for example, 500 gpd), and divide that by 1.84. So in the dead of winter a 500 gpd nameplate capacity system would actually produce 500/1.84 = 272 gpd.

Once you get over about 0.5 gpm feedwater flow (about 400 gpd actual permeate flow at 50% recovery), it can make sense to put a thermostatic blending valve in to warm the feedwater a bit before it goes into the system (including any prefiltration). This would obviously raise the cost of operation, but it will reduce the size (capacity) of the RO needed.

Russ

I understand most but the last part is over my head. So as the brewery sits I have a 1/2 line running into a pot filler I plan on running a hose off it into my kettle to keep it simple now. Ave brew day I use 11 gallons to 10.5 gallons. I dont plan to have a tank and will run the water off in on demand. I wouldn't mind having the ability to double up incase I brew 10gallon batches one day. The plumber gave up and said buy what you need and I will install it.

At this point it would be helpful if you just told me what I needed and I will just order it as blunt as it sounds I just dont want any issues in the long haul.

Thank you for the help! As I said its over my head at this point and all the information and support is extremely appreciated.

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

It is challenging to understand exactly what you need based on these short messages. If it possible for you to call in? 5 minutes on the phone and we'll have this all figured out!
Russ
513-312-2343

 

[Jako]

Saved the number. I will be calling in once I get the chance. Would tomorrow be best?

 

[Buckeye_Hydro]

Tomorrow would be fine.

Russ

 

[Jako]

Tomorrow would be fine.

Russ

Thank you for the help! excited to have it taken care and know i will have exactly what i needed.