Need advice on hooking up spa panel to main panel

[Setesh]

I am done building my 50A back to back Kal clone control panel and I have wired up my 50A GFCI spa panel. Now I need to connect the spa panel to the main panel. Here is my main panel:



I only have one spot left, opposite the 100A main. Which brings me to my frist question: Is this a normal blank spot that I can put another 2 pole breaker into or is this some special spot that was left blank on purpose and for a reason?

2nd question: If it is a normal spot that I can use, is it fine to use a 50A breaker to match the 50A GFCI breaker in my spa panel or should I go slightly higher like a 60A.

The ground and neutral bus are easy enough to tie into, and I'm mounting the spa panel right beside the main panel, so it won't take much 6awg to get me there. I just wanted to make sure I didn't buy the wrong breaker. This is a 18 year old panel and I have to order the breaker as nobody carries them around here. After wiring it all up I will leave the new breaker that leads to the spa panel off, flip the main back on and wait until an electrician can come inspect it before flipping the new breaker and testing the GFCI breaker.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[MDHarris]

Can you get us a closeup picture of the "buss" the place where your new breaker needs to go?

 

[singybrue]

Sorry, no, you typically can't use the blank spot opposite the main. There should be a diagram on the panel door label verifying this.

 

[Setesh]

Can you get us a closeup picture of the "buss" the place where your new breaker needs to go?

Sure, here is the blank spot:
View attachment 170711

 

[Setesh]

Sorry, no, you typically can't use the blank spot opposite the main. There should be a diagram on the panel door label verifying this.

Unfortunately I think you are correct Here is a pic of the wiring diagram you mentioned:



I had assumed the big sticker over that KO that said DO NOT REMOVE THIS KO was to keep people from having a dangerous open hole in the panel cover.

 

[Setesh]

Well, I guess what I will do short term every time I want to brew is turn off the main, disconnect the 40A stove outlet breaker and plug in my own 50A breaker wired up to my spa panel. Then I can turn the main back on and the only bad thing is nobody can use the stove while I'm brewing. Then at the end of the brew day I will turn the main back off and switch them back. Two power outages and two breaker swaps per brew day is a pain, and adds yet another reason not to drink on brew days! Only about 6-8 more months and the new house will be built and I won't have to worry about it anymore! What do you guys think, is that the best solution you see since my panel is full?

 

[KPSquared]

You can swap in a 50 amp breaker but what wire is running to that 40 amp? #8 is standard for 40 amps but if it's a long run it won't cut it for 50 amps. Just don't start a fire because you may get the middle finger from your insurance company. . .

 

[The10mmKid]

Greetings,
I have some real concerns for you and your panel.
I'll address those later.

As for swapping the oven breaker, please just swap the wiring on that breaker with your spa panel. You may find you don't use all 40A anyway. If you do go over, go with your original plan. Make sure you still use 50A wire for the spa panel feed.

Now:
1) You are seriously at the max of your panel load.

This one gives me great concern.
2) I find it odd there are no 15A lighting circuits . . . . all 20A. If there are any 14ga(15A) wires on those double-slim breakers, you're asking for trouble.

3) Your grounds and neutrals are under the same set screw. With the power off, take the time to group multiple grounds under a set screw (like 4 wires). Preferably the bar on the right.
3a) Move the neutrals over to the bar on the left. One wire per set-screw!

You can use a small length of wire and a wirenut to extend the wires.

Be safe in there,
'da Kid

 

[Setesh]

Greetings,
I have some real concerns for you and your panel.
I'll address those later.

As for swapping the oven breaker, please just swap the wiring on that breaker with your spa panel. You may find you don't use all 40A anyway. If you do go over, go with your original plan. Make sure you still use 50A wire for the spa panel feed.

Noted, I was actually going to do that tonight and see how it went. As long as I only use one element at a time this should be fine, thanks for the tip!

Now:
1) You are seriously at the max of your panel load.

True, but we are at the max on the house too, so we will be selling it in another 6-8 months.

This one gives me great concern.
2) I find it odd there are no 15A lighting circuits . . . . all 20A. If there are any 14ga(15A) wires on those double-slim breakers, you're asking for trouble.

Ugh, now that you point it out that concerns me too. I will check that when I get home and see what gauge those wires are.

3) Your grounds and neutrals are under the same set screw. With the power off, take the time to group multiple grounds under a set screw (like 4 wires). Preferably the bar on the right.
3a) Move the neutrals over to the bar on the left. One wire per set-screw!

You can use a small length of wire and a wirenut to extend the wires.

When we moved in I had to take off half the wall plates and swap the neutral and ground on the receptacles. Whoever wired the house used neutral and ground interchangeably, which is nuts as the don't do the same job! Even the washing machine was wired incorrectly! I have no faith at all in whoever did the work. It may be one of those deals where the owner did some of the work themselves to save money during the build. Whatever happened some bad stuff got done.

Be safe in there,

Will do, and thanks again!

'da Kid

I actually have another question for you if you don't mind. Is there a way I can test to make sure my panel is actually safe? There is a test button on the GFCI in the spa panel, and I can test that. But is there a safe way I can test to make sure my actual brewing setup is safe? Could I short a hot on one of the elements to ground and see if the GFCI pops? I just want to make sure that Sparky isn't going to visit me one day when I least expect it!

 

[Setesh]

You can swap in a 50 amp breaker but what wire is running to that 40 amp? #8 is standard for 40 amps but if it's a long run it won't cut it for 50 amps. Just don't start a fire because you may get the middle finger from your insurance company. . .

I get what you are saying, but I won't be using the actual stove run, I just want to steal it's breaker/location for a spa box connection. I will make sure all of that wire is #6. I really appreciate the heads up though!

 

[KPSquared]

Are you going to have an E-stop? That's one way to test the GFCI.

 

[Setesh]

Nope, no E-Stop, I made an exact Kal clone.

 

[KPSquared]

Give the neighbor kid a butter knife and $20?

 

[Setesh]

Give the neighbor kid a butter knife and $20?

Ha! That made me laugh. Is it wrong that I immediately thought "that won't work, they neighbor kid would be missed....what I need to find is a bum"?

 

[neild5]

If you put the 120v 15a outlets you could make an adapter to a standard 3 prong and plug a GFCI tester into the adapter and press the button. The tester is safe and accurate.

 

[KPSquared]

Buzzkill

 

[Setesh]

If you put the 120v 15a outlets you could make an adapter to a standard 3 prong and plug a GFCI tester into the adapter and press the button. The tester is safe and accurate.

Your answer prompted me to to google how GFCI testers work. Apparently they use a resistor to simulate a ground fault. If the forums are to be believed, many of the test buttons on GFCI breakers do not test the circuit in a meaningful way so using a downstream tester is the only way to really know. I'll pick up a tester today. I have adapter cables that go from twist lock to standard plug for my pumps, so I can easily do the test. Thanks for the tip!

 

[hunter306]

Are you going to have an E-stop? That's one way to test the GFCI.

E-Stop should not trigger the GFCI Breaker. Emergency stop should stop the panel itself, not cause a failure at the breaker.

 

[stlbeer]

E-Stop should not trigger the GFCI Breaker. Emergency stop should stop the panel itself, not cause a failure at the breaker.

Maybe not, but it's works to de-energize the entire panel and for what we use it for that works just fine.

 

[Setesh]

I bought a gfci tester at Lowes for $8. Even if it's a redundant test, $8 is worth it to me.

 

[The10mmKid]

So the neighbor kid is out $20? (or $12 if he uses your new tester)?

 

[sennister]

E-Stop should not trigger the GFCI Breaker. Emergency stop should stop the panel itself, not cause a failure at the breaker.

It depends. You are right in some designs and I think Kal's is one of them which what was used in this case. Others hook up the E-Stop to leak current to ground to trip the GFCI kind of like how the tester works. The idea is that an E-Stop is just that an Emergency Stop not a master power. In the cases where it is just an easier to power off master power, the E-Stop can be hit and while the elements and such would be powered off, the panel would still have power coming into it. When wired the other way the E-Stop trips the GFCI in the Spa Panel or Main Panel. In this case all power going into the panel would be cut. The disadvantage is that to reset it you have to go all the way back to where the GFCI breaker is.

 

[KPSquared]

I would assume those using the current leak style of E-Stop are not using it as a master power shut off? It is there for emergencies, not as a switch. When you're done brewing you just turn everything off normally, no?

 

[Setesh]

I would assume those using the current leak style of E-Stop are not using it as a master power shut off? It is there for emergencies, not as a switch. When you're done brewing you just turn everything off normally, no?

Yeah, it's an Oh Crap! button. Normal panel otherwise, just an extra button to hit in emergencies.

 

[Setesh]

I got everything tested out and fixed (I had completely left out the hot for the pumps :smack last night. The GFCI tester tripped the breaker, and I have almost no resistance from the top of my kettles to the ground post on the element box, so I'm feeling pretty good about it. I had a leaky kettle since I put the washer in the wrong place on one of the weldless fittings, but otherwise everything held up on all of the kettles during the wet run. I pull 22.5 amps per element and 1.5 per pump, so I am not going to be able to run both elements on my 40A breaker, but I assumed that going in. I found a 50A breaker on Ebay for $20, but I think I'll just deal with it for 8 months while the new house is finished. I really appreciate all of the help guys! Cheers and beers to you all

 

[sennister]

I would assume those using the current leak style of E-Stop are not using it as a master power shut off? It is there for emergencies, not as a switch. When you're done brewing you just turn everything off normally, no?

Yep, P-J's designs many times do current leak to trip GFCI. I want to say Kal's it is more of a master power. Though I wasn't seeing a diagram on his page so I could be wrong. Though I didn't dig into that long. Typically both still have a master switch. It really comes down to your personal preference. The GFCI trip is probably a little safer as it would remove all power from ever being able to get to the panel. Though depending on the location of your GFCI it may be a hassle to reset it. For instance you may have a GFCI breaker in your main panel located in a basement and be brewing in the garage. So if you bumped it you would have to run all the way down to the basement to reset things.

EDIT:

Here is an example from EBrewSupply in which hitting the E-Stop would cut power to the elements and pumps but not to the panel.

http://www.ebrewsupply.com/designs/30a-BCS-2-Electric.pdf

So in either case if you had a hose pop off and had to hit the E-stop to shut down the pumps the end result is the same. In the case of the EBrewSupply design simply resetting the E-stop would get everything running again. Where P-J's design would require the reset of the GFCI. One might say it would make sense to go with P-J's design because it is safer. The problem is that if you had PIDs programmed/timers running or BCS running, hitting the E-Stop because a hose popped off would cut power to those devices as well and you would loose were you are at in the brew session and possibly have to set things back up again. In EBrewSupply's method, the PIDs/timers or in the link above BCS would still have power so the programs would continue to run. If the panel got splashed and something was shorting the GFCI should trip anyhow and either way I wouldn't want to touch the E-Stop if I didn't trust the GFCI. So is one method safer than the other? Which one is better? Hard to say. I would say personal preference.

 

[processhead]

"I actually have another question for you if you don't mind. Is there a way I can test to make sure my panel is actually safe? There is a test button on the GFCI in the spa panel, and I can test that. But is there a safe way I can test to make sure my actual brewing setup is safe? Could I short a hot on one of the elements to ground and see if the GFCI pops? I just want to make sure that Sparky isn't going to visit me one day when I least expect it!"


NOT a recommended test method.

Think about it.
If the GFCI is working, great.
If it doesn't trip on GF, then you are running a 40+ amps of current through the jumper to ground with your hand and body in close proximity for potential burns, or worse.


Preferred method for testing wiring and insulation is with the line voltage off and using a ohmmeter or megger.