Ministry and beer

[stamandster]

It's a fact that some are sensitive and will be stumbled by any sort of alcohol consumption (either their own interpretations or because of their own previous dealings with it). But it's obviously not a sin to drink alcohol; only drunkenness is recorded as a sin in the bible. Only problem is there's a stigma, and has been for a long time, with alcohol.

You can't help how people feel towards a subject. You can only really help who you tell about it. For example let's say you were doing car racing on the weekends. Some may feel your not showing respect for your life for doing something that is dangerous in which you could be killed. Is it wrong? No. Is it your moral obligation to tell others? No. Could some be stumbled by it? Yes.

The bible does say that we are to stumble no one for we could be found blood guilty. If you were getting drunk that's completely wrong and a true cause for stumbling. But drinking in moderation isn't a real cause. It's an excuse for others to complain. Everyone is accountable to God for their own actions, not what others "make" them do.

I don't see how it's a bad thing not to tell people that you brew and enjoy beer. Your not lying to them, you don't need to tell them everything about your life. Your not killing people in your spare time. But if you feel guilty for brewing and drinking beer and can't get over it then stop.

 

[RedGuitar]

I think that it is largely a cultural thing. When I was serving as a missionary in Bolivia, I had to sign a contract stating that I would not drink while on the mission field (I confess I broke it the night before I left when I sampled 2 local beers). The pastor of the church I attended was British, and he did not understand why American Christians were so strict about drinking (and cussing, for that matter). Even on here, I hear some folks saying things like, "Well, since you're in the south, a pastor can't drink there..."

My wife is from California, and comes from a family that is very health conscious. The pastor that I'm working with now is very obese, and this really bothers my wife. To her, a part of being a Christian is taking care of your body because it's a gift from God, and also sharing what you have, such as food. For a pastor to have become so large, he is obviously partaking greatly at the table and is not taking care of his body. This is a distraction my wife must deal with, but she recognizes it as her own problem (kind of) and that he is not trying to make her stumble.

The bottom line is, if my actions will cause my parishioners to stumble in some way, I will stop those actions, whatever they are. But at the same time, it is my duty as their pastor to teach them and to help them get beyond whatever is causing them troubles, whether it is my actions, their actions, or whatever.

 

[cfrazier77]

Here is what I did last fall. I was being interviewed by a church for my first pastor position after finishing seminary. When speaking on hobbies I told them that I enjoyed brewing and asked if that would be a problem if I kept it discrete. I also said that I viewed one of the roles of pastors is to reform things that God gave us that are good that we have turned into sin. God gave us alcohol as a good thing, like sex. When we use it outside of His intended purposes, getting drunk or sex outside of marriage, then we make it a sin, not the thing itself. Many churches have implied for a long time that there are two kinds of people in regards to alcohol, drunkards and those who do not drink. What about a third option, those who enjoy a good gift without being drunk?

After saying this to the interview committee, they agreed and thought that it was a good idea. I could show by my life a proper use and enjoyment of alcohol.

I would not try to hide it. We don't need to air everything in our lives when we are a pastor, but we do need to address potential hot button issues that we can predict. Also, if you set the right attitude you are more likely to get a "yes" as opposed to your church leaders reacting to someone who found out and got angry. When people at my church find out I tell them that I was given permission to do it and that takes care of it. It has spurred many good conversations. Also, I really needed permission because I am brewing at the church owned parsonage on the same block.

 

[Jayhem]

Simple. There are dozes of verses in the Bible referencing wine and drinking as perfectly acceptable for pastors, elders, leaders, etc. Jesus himself drank wine. The only commandments against drinking are in regard to drinking in excess and becoming stupid drunk for obvious reasons. The only reason beer wasn't mentioned specifically in the Bible is because it was likely much less prized then wine back then. Fermentation was the only way to store liquid in the hot summer months without refrigeration and the only other drink available was water.

 

[Nugent]

Catholicism has nothing against brewing...or drinking. I was born and raised in a pretty strict Catholic family -- went to mass every Sunday, didn't eat meat on Fridays, etc. My Grandma drank plenty of beer as did the rest of my family. I was at Mass a couple months ago and the new priest introduced himself by stating that he was a home brewer (he even mentioned that he was anxiously awaiting his St. Paul Porter to finish fermenting).

My Grandma (if she were alive today, bless her soul) would be proud of her grand-daughter the brewer and probably bring some of my home brew to church with her to share.

My cousin, who is a Jesuit in Australia, always has a fridge full of Guinness. He and I went on a few, rather tempered, pub crawls while there.

 

[stamandster]

I think there's a big difference between drinking after a congregational meeting and before. Imagine having a conversation with anyone at the place where you meet and smelling alcohol. Doesn't give a good image, nor does it help a person be of complete and focused mind for teaching (or just conversing with others) or accepting being taught. Spirituality is to be the focus, not which stout you had for dinner/lunch (let's hope not for breakfast ).

Sometimes, people are just sensitive to certain topics. Sometimes people just get upset because you didn't say hi to them in the way they wanted you to. What would you do if people were offended that you worked as a Fire Fighter or other type of public servant (not a cop where you might have to shoot to kill; or even a politician as that would also be directly condemned). They were offended because of they perceived, with their own conscience, that to be completely separate from "church and state" that you don't work for the state/federal governments directly.

Would you stop working as a Fire Fighter (i mean it's dangerous too right!)? Or would you deal with these people on a one on one basis, treating them as adults not children who aren't yet fully accountable for their own thoughts and actions?

The other thing is that the bible doesn't say that just Pastors/Priests/Ministers/Elders/Deacons/etc. are ones that shouldn't stumbling. It doesn't designate a "class", it was directed to the whole congregation in Corinth (1 Cor 10:32). We all have the responsibility not to stumble one another.

... just some thoughts I guess (I won't get into the weight thing here though ) ...

 

[Teromous]

Despite what we say on the forums, this is an issue between you, your church, and your community. Obviously we're going to say it's ok, but what will you do if your church says it isn't? Will you try to reason with them and possibly lose your sheep, view it as a tribulation and give up brewing, do it in secret, or give up the position? Will they even care?

 

[knotquiteawake]

I learned to brew at a Church men's ministry meeting.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Wow, in Texas! Both my parents are form that area, and I grew up in 'all drinking is from Satan' churches.

Edit: or was this elsewhere?

 

[knotquiteawake]

My Father in law grew up in that kind of Baptist church. Now me and him drink beers on the porch together.

 

[GrantH]

Just remind them that Jesus turned water into wine.

 

[wailingguitar]

Here is an interesting quote from Martin Luther. I had never seen it before, but this discussion has me doing some research...

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

 

[TarVolon]

Simple. There are dozes of verses in the Bible referencing wine and drinking as perfectly acceptable for pastors, elders, leaders, etc. Jesus himself drank wine. The only commandments against drinking are in regard to drinking in excess and becoming stupid drunk for obvious reasons. The only reason beer wasn't mentioned specifically in the Bible is because it was likely much less prized then wine back then. Fermentation was the only way to store liquid in the hot summer months without refrigeration and the only other drink available was water.

On the subject of verses mentioning alcohol, I've always liked the interpretation of Ecclesiastes 11 that reads it as a poetic enjoinder to brew and share.

Cast your bread upon the waters,
for you will find it after many days.
2 Give a portion to seven, or even to eight,
for you know not what disaster may happen on earth.

 

[CidCitrus]

I grew up Methodist in a dry town (our church owns the only liquor license in order to prevent the sale of alcohol) and was always told that alcohol was sinful. I believed it for a while, too. But my real story is when my band played at Eastern University in PA. There is a strict no alcohol policy there and we thought we were abiding by it, but our drummer (who was studying there at the time) forgot that he had left a few cans of Yuengling from a previous show in the cord bag. We were hauling our equipment back to the van when one of the people putting on the show saw the beers. Our drummer almost got expelled and we were told we could never play there again, and we weren't even drinking. Sometimes people are just really convicted that alcohol is a sin regardless of the circumstances.

 

[DoubleAught]

Here is an interesting quote from Martin Luther. I had never seen it before, but this discussion has me doing some research...

“Whenever the devil harasses you, seek the company of men or drink more, or joke and talk nonsense, or do some other merry thing. Sometimes we must drink more, sport, recreate ourselves, and even sin a little to spite the devil, so that we leave him no place for troubling our consciences with trifles. We are conquered if we try too conscientiously not to sin at all. So when the devil says to you: do not drink, answer him: I will drink, and right freely, just because you tell me not to.”

I like that!

 

[matt99004]

For a refreshing view of ministry in the 21st century, go to www.lutherstable.org. Had a few there a couple of weeks back. Tastiest ministry in town.

 

[Mongrel]

Isn't it your job to tell these people what to think?

And, like a few others, I was hoping this was going to be about the band, or preferably the side project that sang about Beers, Steers, and...

 

[aerod1]

We have started a homebrew club within the Dallas diocese of the Episcopal church. We call it Saint Andrew's Suds Society" (SASS). We brew beer and have homebrew contests at our church where we compete with other churches for the "traveling growler". We also are starting to have "brew days". It's fun and the beer is great!

 

[ron,ar]

My experiance on this is that as a Methodist, Luthern, or Catholic and maybe Presberterian and a few others, you can slide by without a problem on the surface. If you were a Baptist....no way in the world could you convince a Baptist deacon or the congregation it is ok to create a "tool of the devil" such as homebrew.
The old joke is that a Luthern pastor once said that the only way he would take a Baptist fishing with him was if at least 2 Baptists went....if he took only one with him he drank up all the Lutherns beer.
You asked opinions, not for advice, but I'm going to give you some advice anyway.
Remember, I said you might slide by "on the surface" up there?
You surrendered into the highest calling a person can have.....your decisions all have to please someone much higher than all of us or yourself. When I surrendered unto the calling many years ago the first thing I did was sell the old bass boat as it was too much of a distraction to what my real work would be. Now that I am old, retired and hopefully wiser I have learned things can coexist together without too much uproar.
If I were you, I would concentrate on my higher calling and let the rest work itself out later as you go along.
There are lots of words in that Book that tell you what you can and what you can't do, but then stuck way back over there in 1st Thessalonians 5:21 and 22 are 2 sentences that will make you think about it in a whole different Light. If you can get it past these 2 verses, then it will probably be ok.....there have been lots of times I had to go back and hold things up against these 2 and sometimes I didn't like how it looked :^(
Verse 21- "Prove all things, holding fast to that which is Good"....... Only you can make the choice as to what is Good, not in your eyes, but in His.
And that verse 22?
Thats what I always called His catch-all verse..because besides all the commandments, directives and teachings there is this admonishment...."abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil". Notice it didn't say stay away from evil, and I'm not saying homebrewing of beer is evil, but it says more or less, if it just looks bad, leave it alone for appearances sake. You think about it, you pray about it, you will figure it out. Hope this helps and God Bless you young fella. (didn't intend to offend anyone here, if I did, I apopogize now)
Ron

 

[IanPC]

As far as I'm concerned no man can truly judge another. Church dogmas were created by man as a foundation for people to practice Christianity in a way that suits them. I.E..kneeling every 30 secs, or the sign of the cross. I'm a congregationalist...I drink, and home brew. Drink, be merry, don't embarrass the people around you, and show some self respect while having fun at the same time. I think God cares less if you drink, however, if you do something while intoxicated that you can't undue...then there will be the devil to pay. IE...drink to excess while being a diabetic.. Bad news. The ill effects could alter every single person in your life. 1-2 beers properly monitored probably would hurt you all that much. (depending on the alc%. etc etc

 

[spearko520]

As far as I'm concerned no man can truly judge another.

that's the real big part of christian teaching that is often overlooked in its "practice". i wish there were more theologians out there...

 

[TyTanium]

...
If I were you, I would concentrate on my higher calling and let the rest work itself out later as you go along.
Verse 21- "Prove all things, holding fast to that which is Good"....... Only you can make the choice as to what is Good, not in your eyes, but in His.
...You think about it, you pray about it, you will figure it out. Hope this helps and God Bless you young fella.
Ron

That's a good word, Ron. Thanks for your wisdom.

 

[bleme]

abstain from all APPEARANCE of evil".

I used to have a pastor who also worked for the gas company. When he had to travel to company meetings he would always take his own car instead of traveling with his female co-worker because he didn't want to give anyone any reason to think he was fooling around. Personally, I think he took it too far as he came off as more self-righteous than "saved by grace", but that was his decision to make. No matter what any of us say, only you can know what is right for you.

 

[stamandster]

I used to have a pastor who also worked for the gas company. When he had to travel to company meetings he would always take his own car instead of traveling with his female co-worker because he didn't want to give anyone any reason to think he was fooling around. Personally, I think he took it too far as he came off as more self-righteous than "saved by grace", but that was his decision to make. No matter what any of us say, only you can know what is right for you.

Maybe he was really "self-righteous", or maybe he knew the 'thorn in his flesh'. Maybe she was pretty and he was attracted to her (you can't help who you think is pretty, you can help what you do with that information!). And he decided that being in a car (close quarters, intimate, many times a month possibly) with a woman that was not his wife could lead to other things. It's not like that hasn't been known to happen. Some may find it "self-righteous" others may find it "self-preserving".

Just curiously (and slightly humorously) though, if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

 

[Bierliebhaber]

Here is what I did last fall. I was being interviewed by a church for my first pastor position after finishing seminary. When speaking on hobbies I told them that I enjoyed brewing and asked if that would be a problem if I kept it discrete. I also said that I viewed one of the roles of pastors is to reform things that God gave us that are good that we have turned into sin. God gave us alcohol as a good thing, like sex. When we use it outside of His intended purposes, getting drunk or sex outside of marriage, then we make it a sin, not the thing itself. Many churches have implied for a long time that there are two kinds of people in regards to alcohol, drunkards and those who do not drink. What about a third option, those who enjoy a good gift without being drunk?

After saying this to the interview committee, they agreed and thought that it was a good idea. I could show by my life a proper use and enjoyment of alcohol.

I would not try to hide it. We don't need to air everything in our lives when we are a pastor, but we do need to address potential hot button issues that we can predict. Also, if you set the right attitude you are more likely to get a "yes" as opposed to your church leaders reacting to someone who found out and got angry. When people at my church find out I tell them that I was given permission to do it and that takes care of it. It has spurred many good conversations. Also, I really needed permission because I am brewing at the church owned parsonage on the same block.

+1

I am a PhD candidate in Hebrew Bible and teach graduate level courses in languages and Bible, as adjunct prof. I also teach at my Southern Baptist church, but I informed the pastor overseeing me that I brewed very early in our relationship. I don't advertise it for the reasons already mentioned in regard to Southern Baptists. The two wisest suggestions I've heard so far are to be honest from the start (with the right heart/attitude of course) and/or to just set the hobby aside for good or until you have a better understanding of the congregation.

The point many are missing is that the issue for the OP was not the morality of drinking/brewing, but the effect it may have on his new congregation. This is not an issue about one individual's ability to drink beer. This is an issue of a leader, who has been selected to shepherd a the souls of people. Sure it would be great if you could reform the misguided beliefs about alcohol consumption, but that should not be your primary objective. Your concern for the growth and health of the congregation should be such that losing your hobby would be a slight concern. I have tried to keep a very loose grip on my homebrewing hobby, as I know being a seminary prof and church leader may require that I leave the brewing for a time. But for now, drinking and brewing have afforded many opportunities for the gospel.

I would suggest you broach the subject with the current pastor, when you meet him. Make you foremost concern what is best for the people under your care, not how you can maintain your privileges. I do hope you're able to carry on, though. You may consider beginning a theology discussion group at a local pub, as an outreach/enrichment. When I've done this in the past, it provides a much more relaxed environment to discuss potentially tense subjects, as well as welcome people who would be far less comfortable talking theology in a church. This way you're able to join two loves and expose the congregation to a positive view of beer consumption.

Blessings brother

 

[Taliesin]

There are a lot of posts on this thread, and I don't have time to read them all. Here are a couple thoughts on the original post.

If it is a distinctive of your denomination that drinking is a sin, then I would reconsider the denomination I was a part of. I have run into a significant number of Christians from various denominations/non-denominations that believe that drinking is a sin. Such congregations would apparently have disfellowshipped Christ on these grounds, and I couldn't be a part of any congregation/denomination that disfellowships her Head.

It's not so much the judging that is a problem. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine, which means someone has to figure out who the pigs are. (swiped from a sermon by D.A. Carson) Calling sin what it is isn't the problem. Inventing sins that do not exist in Scripture is the problem.

That being said, while I wouldn't put up a banner advertising my homebrewing adventures, I wouldn't hide the fact at all. If someone asked me what I was interested in aside from sermon preparation and obvious works of the church, I'd be up front. Let it be a chance to teach. The weaker brother argument is a good one, and one ought to be sensitive to the stumbling blocks of others. However, knowing that beer is brewed is not anyone's problem, really. If a congregant had a problem with alcohol, I certainly wouldn't invite them to a brew day. Since what you are doing is obviously not a sin, there is no reason to brew in the dark with tar paper over the windows and all the lights off. That's just dangerous.

All of this is my opinion of course. Your mileage may vary. I am not responsible for any cranial explosions resulting from the techniques or recommendations presented in this post. Taking my advice may cause plagues of locusts and slight swelling. Check with your physician before following any of the advice of this guy. etc.

 

[RedGuitar]

Just curiously (and slightly humorously) though, if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

I started brewing before I really pursued this whole ordination thing. Since beginning ordination, I haven't really considered it an issue, because my theology says it is no sin and it is not a big deal at my church at all. I'm actually just starting seminary and this will be a student appointment that I will (hopefully) be in for the next four years. This past Monday evening I was brewing my first batch since finding out about my pending appointment, and that is where this thread started.

 

[RedGuitar]

The point many are missing is that the issue for the OP was not the morality of drinking/brewing, but the effect it may have on his new congregation. This is not an issue about one individual's ability to drink beer. This is an issue of a leader, who has been selected to shepherd a the souls of people. Sure it would be great if you could reform the misguided beliefs about alcohol consumption, but that should not be your primary objective. Your concern for the growth and health of the congregation should be such that losing your hobby would be a slight concern. I have tried to keep a very loose grip on my homebrewing hobby, as I know being a seminary prof and church leader may require that I leave the brewing for a time. But for now, drinking and brewing have afforded many opportunities for the gospel.

I think this is the best summation of my ponderings on the subject.

I am meeting my new church this upcoming Sunday, and will be going with the District Superintendant (essentially the man who will be my boss). I e-mailed the DS already and went ahead and let him know my hobby and that I didn't want to do anything that might harm my flock. He promised we would discuss it this Sunday. So, we'll see where I go from there.

Anyway, in the meantime I think I'm going to go listen to the airlock on my honey wheat bubble.

 

[stamandster]

... I didn't want to do anything that might harm my flock. ...
Anyway, in the meantime I think I'm going to go listen to the airlock on my honey wheat bubble.

Off Topic slightly, but, I think you meant "the" flock, of which we're all a part of An overseers responsibility is as 1 Pet 5:2,3 states to "Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock".

I'm also sniffing the airlock of my ESB I just brewed

 

[cmendo2005]

I am a catholic in a generally Polish community, I think more important than the religion is the culture. Polish like to drink, they like to play cards, religious or not they would not have a problem with brewing (Which my grandma does not) unless your religion specifically says or forbids it I think the important thing is to understand the background make up of your congregation if that makes sense?

 

[stamandster]

... I think more important than the religion is the culture ...

That's certainly an interesting view of things. I think to bring it a step further is that what the bible states is more important than either what the tradition of man states or what our cultures (which move to and fro like the oceans) come up with. Especially so if you're trying to live by Bible standards (God's standards) which never change. It should be a way of life, not just something you do just on "Sunday" or special occasions or to make friends.

In fact Mark 7:5-9 (NIV) Jesus says something interesting regarding traditions, "So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?” He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!"

Wow that was way OT ... last one I promise

 

[CGish]

My concern is what would all of your grandmas say about it.

I came from a very conservative (think Amish/Mennonite type) culture. I did not know either of my grandmas well, but my impression is they would have said nothing ... then drank whatever you brewed when no one was looking.

As an active pastoral assistant and ministry student, I would say go in quietly and be willing to pack your brewing equipment away for a few years, if necessary. If you have to stop brewing while you are posted there, and if a parish house is provided and the congregation considers it 'theirs' (meaning they feel free to poke in the cupboards and attic), then you may need to store your equipment elsewhere for a while ... Hopefully you will not have a problem and can establish biblical teaching in this area. If not, then may this assignment be short and the next one be better!

... if you knew that eventually you'd be a pastor, wouldn't you ask these questions way before you got the "gig"? Not an "oh crap, now what do I do"? I mean is seminary training only like a month or two (not being rude, I just don't know)? Didn't you know for a while that this would be coming or did you just never think about it?

I had to smile at this - Don't know about the OP, but I got into brewing several years before I started down the 'ministry' road. This was not how I thought my life would turn out. I had to get knocked around pretty good by life before I was willing to consider this path. I wish seminary was only a month or two - to get into a school with a good reputation, you need a bachelors degree, which I did not have. This means 3 - 4 years of college, then 1 - 4 years for a masters degree from a seminary (if you are like me and have no 'higher' education).

 

[stamandster]

... I wish seminary was only a month or two - to get into a school with a good reputation, you need a bachelors degree, which I did not have. This means 3 - 4 years of college, then 1 - 4 years for a masters degree from a seminary (if you are like me and have no 'higher' education).

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! In a similar veign we see what the Sadducee's (and others) thought of Peter and John in Acts 4:13 "Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus". As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

 

[Bierliebhaber]

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! In a similar veign we see what the Sadducee's (and others) thought of Peter and John in Acts 4:13 "Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus". As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

 

[CGish]

That's a lot of time certification to teach about the bible! ... As we all know Peter and John were Apostles and obviously well equipped to teach the word of God

Yeah, tell me about it. Graduating from seminary is not about being able to teach, or any other gift. It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards. The real training is a personal faith, and no school can give you that. Had a retired pastor (he held two masters and a doctorate from three different schools) tell me, "when you graduate, you will have to throw out everything you have been taught and start over studying the Word. After you are done with school, your real education will start." Kind of sobering considering how much an education cost, but part of the world we live in.

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

Interesting way to look at it.

 

[bottlebomber]

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

Any Christian youth should have a full fledged bible education by the time he leaves home, if his father and mother have done their jobs. And while they (Peter and John) did have a definite advantage of having a fleshly Christ to learn from, we have Christ in spirit as well as his Almighty Father to guide us. If you remember, it wasn't until Jesus died that he revealed many of his teachings to his people. I think Christians have every advantage in these times, if not more so than the apostles.
As far as the languages, unless you are somehow involved in Biblical translation work I don't see how Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic are of any specific benefit. By contrast, knowing Spanish would be of much greater value in the land we live in.

Graduating from seminary is not about being able to teach, or any other gift. It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards.

It sounds more like a business venture than a spiritual venture.

 

[TarVolon]

Any Christian youth should have a full fledged bible education by the time he leaves home, if his father and mother have done their jobs. And while they (Peter and John) did have a definite advantage of having a fleshly Christ to learn from, we have Christ in spirit as well as his Almighty Father to guide us. If you remember, it wasn't until Jesus died that he revealed many of his teachings to his people. I think Christians have every advantage in these times, if not more so than the apostles.
As far as the languages, unless you are somehow involved in Biblical translation work I don't see how Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic are of any specific benefit. By contrast, knowing Spanish would be of much greater value in the land we live in.

It's amazing once you start paying attention to it how many times you can read a verse and really wish you knew the original language so that you could understand what subtleties were trying to be portrayed that may be hidden by the translation.

And there's also something to be said for actively studying 2,000 years worth of biblical commentary. Lots of smart people have said a lot of good things that we can benefit from. And that most Christian youths probably don't know that well by the time they leave home.

 

[Dan]

I learned to brew at a Church men's ministry meeting.

There might be a church around here like yours, wish I knew because I'd start going.

Belief in God, and the sacrifices made by his son, and fellowship is what I believe hold a church together.

 

[stamandster]

It's amazing once you start paying attention to it how many times you can read a verse and really wish you knew the original language so that you could understand what subtleties were trying to be portrayed that may be hidden by the translation.

And there's also something to be said for actively studying 2,000 years worth of biblical commentary. Lots of smart people have said a lot of good things that we can benefit from. And that most Christian youths probably don't know that well by the time they leave home.

The thing about Hebrew is there are so many words that have very complex meanings that they don't have a direct translation into English (or other languages for that matter). It would be nice at times to know why a certain word was used in place of another (for instance in Greek the word for where Jesus was hung meant a wooden timber not a cross; though some translations input their own theology into the interpretation). Understanding the Hebrew language is obviously not required for understanding the word of god completely. Only God's holy spirit (or active force, ru′ach or pneu′ma) provides this insight to those that are sincere of heart. Anyone can read the scriptures in any language they want till their blue in the face but the key is God's holy spirit to guide our mental faculties.

Solomon makes mention of something in regard to the bible cannon at Ecc 12:11,12, "The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections of sentences; they have been given from one shepherd. As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh". The message is simple, scripture should be our foremost concern for learning and teaching the Bible.

There's a nice scripture that speaks of how a family should be in regards to teaching the bible in their family, as the Israelites were instructed, "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force. And these words that I am commanding you today must prove to be on your heart; and you must inculcate them in your son and speak of them when you sit in your house and when you walk on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. And you must tie them as a sign upon your hand, and they must serve as a frontlet band between your eyes; and you must write them upon the doorposts of your house and on your gates."

If a family head is doing his job appropriately (and we all know how hard that is, and we know that sometimes kids just won't want to listen) and child "should" have a good basic knowledge of the scriptures. He should know his bible enough to cite basic bible doctrine, even by the age of 10. He should have a firmer grasp of what is taught in his adolescence. They can't be babes forever

 

[stamandster]

... It is about having a piece of paper to satisfy church by-laws and elder boards. The real training is a personal faith, and no school can give you that. Had a retired pastor (he held two masters and a doctorate from three different schools) tell me, "when you graduate, you will have to throw out everything you have been taught and start over studying the Word. After you are done with school, your real education will start."

Seems like money well spent . I see a biblical parallel. I've been studying the bible all my life (like Timothy) and have been involved in a worldwide Bible Training "course" since about 8 yrs old. All free though

Yep, they had three years of hard core seminary (day and night) with the greatest biblical scholar who ever lived. Not to mention understanding/familiarity with the biblical languages and good synagogue instruction in their youth.

That's true Jesus was with them and was the best teacher. But I'm fairly positive that they became "fishers of men" almost right away.