Mash vs Steeping -_-

[xrumer]

I know, i know. I've searched the forums and found these threads explaining the differences.

My question is.

If a recipe calls for steeping can you mash instead? Isn't the difference of the 2 is converting grain into simple sugars? Would this alter the main taste, so steeping vs mash is about final product?

 

[Bramstoker17]

Yes anything that can be steeped can also be mashed. The key is though having base grains to convert the sugars in specialty grains. Just keeping some crystal malt at 152 degrees for an hour isn't going to do anything more than add color and flavor. You need the enzymes in the base grains to convert the sugars.

 

[stpug]

Mashing is just steeping at the right temperature for the right amount of time using the right grain with the right amount of water and being consistent about it. And there is lots of play in the word - "right".

 

[Bramstoker17]

Mashing is just steeping at the right temperature for the right amount of time using the right grain with the right amount of water and being consistent about it. And there is lots of play in the word - "right".

True, i forgot about the water part. When you mash, you need to have a specific water to grain ratio. That's much less important when just steeping the grains as far as I know. There is wiggle room with both mash tempt and water/grain ratio depending on the beer style

 

[xrumer]

So it's more complicated than just false bottom and time and temp? LOL!

 

[freisste]

I could be wrong in this, but I don't think you can mash crystal malt. Yes, it can be in the mash tun with your other grains which ARE being mashed, but I don't think you are doing anything more than steeping. The sugars in crystal malts are not able to be converted even when mashing other grains.

Then again, I've been wrong before...

Edit: as far as the actions go, yes, they are similar. Some grains in hot water for a period of time.

 

[unionrdr]

True,mashing is needed for the conversion of starches in base grains to sugars. Many of us just add the crystal,specialty,etc grains to the mash & do'em all at once. Generally,1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. 1 hour mash generally,although 90 minute mashes are used as well. 147-sh to 160F. Higher the mash temp,the less fermentables are produced.
Then there's cooler mash tuns,biab,etc.

 

[xrumer]

A little off topic, but does it matter if theirs splashing from mash to BK? I see these setup's where someone has their mash elevated with a valve stem with no hose or pipe just aimed over the BK.

You guys are great thanks!

 

[unionrdr]

I've gotten no ill results from alleged hot side aeration myself. And I drain & sparge the grain bag in a collander over the BK/MT.

 

[stpug]

I could be wrong in this, but I don't think you can mash crystal malt. Yes, it can be in the mash tun with your other grains which ARE being mashed, but I don't think you are doing anything more than steeping. The sugars in crystal malts are not able to be converted even when mashing other grains.

Then again, I've been wrong before...

Edit: as far as the actions go, yes, they are similar. Some grains in hot water for a period of time.

I've recently read a post by _someone_ on here (malfet maybe, dunno --wrong, it was Nilo) where they did some experimenting with mashing crystal and the outcome. My recollection says that plain steeping of crystal produces sugars that were less fermentable than when the same crystal was mashed with base malt. Not only did the mashed crystal produce more fermentable sugars but it produces more sugars overall. Again my recollection says it was due to additional starches in the crystal being converted, as well as the enzymes acting on those crystalized sugars already present in the crystal/cara malt.

If I can scrounge up this post I'll edit this and add the link:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/testing-fermentability-crystal-malt-208361/index4.html#post2452169

But this post (in the same thread) is where the summary of all tests is and where he details the fermentability and extraction/conversion of crystal:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/t...-crystal-malt-208361/index11.html#post2721761

Edit: Updated link and it was Nilo, not malfet. Great info though!!

 

[stpug]

So it's more complicated than just false bottom and time and temp? LOL!

No false bottom is needed for mashing. BIAB brewers don't generally use a false bottom, screen, or manifold - they use a bag (thus Brew In A Bag).

And, no, it's not really more complicated than time and temp. Well, maybe... but only a tiny little bit. Seriously.

 

[PJoyce85]

So here's a breakdown.

Steeping is done to release the sugars that are already present (by way of their production) in specialty grains to add color, flavor, mouthfeel, etc. Take a crystal malt for example. It is roasted/kilned at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time to achieve certain color and flavor characteristics. To keep it simple, this creates mostly non-fermentable sugars (by brewers yeast) and kills the enzymes. Specialty grains can be mashed but do not contribute to conversion of starch to sugars.

Mashing is the process to convert starches in malted grains to fermentable sugar that brewers yeast can eat to make alcohol (as well as other by products).

If you have a base malt such as 2-row, pale, pilsner, etc., it will need to be mashed as simply steeping it will have little enzymatic activity and will contribute very little to the overall brew.

Hope this helps.

 

[unionrdr]

I just use the cake cooling rack in the bottom of the kettle to keep from melting the nylon paint strainer bag or burning the grains on the hot bottom.

 

[freisste]

So here's a breakdown.

Steeping is done to release the sugars that are already present (by way of their production) in specialty grains to add color, flavor, mouthfeel, etc. Take a crystal malt for example. It is roasted/kilned at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time to achieve certain color and flavor characteristics. To keep it simple, this creates mostly non-fermentable sugars (by brewers yeast) and kills the enzymes. Specialty grains can be mashed but do not contribute to conversion of starch to sugars.

Mashing is the process to convert starches in malted grains to fermentable sugar that brewers yeast can eat to make alcohol (as well as other by products).

If you have a base malt such as 2-row, pale, pilsner, etc., it will need to be mashed as simply steeping it will have little enzymatic activity and will contribute very little to the overall brew.

Hope this helps.

Thanks. It does help. My comment was regarding the effect (or lack thereof) of mashing a crystal or cara malt. My understanding was that there was no difference, but it sounds like there have been experiments that indicate (I won't say prove because I'm stubborn) that I am mistaken.


Was your first line meant to be a pun?

 

[unionrdr]

Well,I hear a lot on here about honey malt,for instance,giving better honey flavor when mashed. Besides using small amounts. So it does make me think this may be true to some extent with other specialty malts,crystal,etc.

 

[stpug]

Freisste, check out the link I posted (it's been updated). It sure seems to indicate there's more to crystal/cara than already converted sugars, particularly when mashed. I tend to agree because I've experienced the difference of 1 lb of crystal in an extract batch versus 1 lb of crystal in all grain (cloyingly sweet vs not too sweet). But my experiences were just things I've noticed. Nilo actually did the hard work of a systematic experiment.

 

[PJoyce85]

Thanks. It does help. My comment was regarding the effect (or lack thereof) of mashing a crystal or cara malt. My understanding was that there was no difference, but it sounds like there have been experiments that indicate (I won't say prove because I'm stubborn) that I am mistaken.

Was your first line meant to be a pun?

It wasn't meant to be but it's nice when things work out

There was a Beer Smith Podcast with Gordon Strong on some different brewing techniques. One of them was to remove specialty grains from the mash, steep them separately and add the liquid in the boil. I have tried this with beer that has large amounts of dark specialty grains (chocolate, black patent, etc.) and there is a noticeable taste difference. Again, I have only tried it with dark specialty grains. The result of not mashing the dark specialty grains resulted in a much more rounded roast flavor.

I don't know the science behind it, but the longer the dark specialty grains sit at a higher temp, the harsher their flavor characteristics become. As mentioned above, most of us just add all of it to the mash because we are lazy but there are noticeable differences when removing the specialty grains from the mash.

 

[xrumer]

I think i might be a little overwhelmed that i started to feel a little insecure about the difference.

Steeping is generally specialty grains in muslin bag for time/temp

Mashing is (specific grains)(that can't be easily converted to simple sugars) either all in with false bottom or a muslin/brew bag? Is mashing a longer/slower temp/time than steeping specialty.

I'm sorry if my questions dumb.

 

[PJoyce85]

I think i might be a little overwhelmed that i started to feel a little insecure about the difference.

Steeping is generally specialty grains in muslin bag for time/temp

Mashing is (specific grains)(that can't be easily converted to simple sugars) either all in with false bottom or a muslin/brew bag? Is mashing a longer/slower temp/time than steeping specialty.

I'm sorry if my questions dumb.

Not dumb at all.

You are correct. Steeping is normally specialty grains in a muslin bag. I think most extract recipes say 20 minutes at 170° or something close to that.

Mashing is grains and water to convert starch to sugar no matter what you filter with.

There are some variables to consider when determining the temperature at which to mash. 60 minutes is the "norm" for most mash schedules. There are also different temps at which to mash. Some people deem different temperature rests as unnecessary and some do them.

So lets say for a pale ale. 60 minute mash at 152° is a common mash schedule.

 

[evrose]

It wasn't meant to be but it's nice when things work out

There was a Beer Smith Podcast with Gordon Strong on some different brewing techniques. One of them was to remove specialty grains from the mash, steep them separately and add the liquid in the boil. I have tried this with beer that has large amounts of dark specialty grains (chocolate, black patent, etc.) and there is a noticeable taste difference. Again, I have only tried it with dark specialty grains. The result of not mashing the dark specialty grains resulted in a much more rounded roast flavor.

I don't know the science behind it, but the longer the dark specialty grains sit at a higher temp, the harsher their flavor characteristics become. As mentioned above, most of us just add all of it to the mash because we are lazy but there are noticeable differences when removing the specialty grains from the mash.

To simplify the process, I wonder if you could simply add the dark grains to the mash for the final 20 minutes...? It would make the process analogous to hop additions done at different points in the boil.

I may try this for my next dark brew.

I'd just mill the base grains separately from the specialty grains, and add those in the last 20 min... no extra work really.

hum... interesting thought...

 

[PJoyce85]

To simply the process, I wonder if you could simply add the dark grains to the mash for the final 20 minutes...? It would make the process analogous to hop additions done at different points in the boil.

I may try this for my next dark brew.

I'd just mill the base grains separately from the specialty grains, and add those in the last 20 min... no extra work really.

hum... interesting thought...

I have tried throwing them in at sparge with great results.

When I was done with the 60 minutes, I gathered my first runnings, threw in the dark grains, added my sparge water (batch), stirred and let sit for 20 minutes.

Never thought about doing it how you described but that would definitely cut down on the time (but when I used to batch sparge, I always let it sit for 20 minutes after I added the sparge water).

 

[xrumer]

Thanks! Pjoyce. I understand

 

[justkev52]

It wasn't meant to be but it's nice when things work out

There was a Beer Smith Podcast with Gordon Strong on some different brewing techniques. One of them was to remove specialty grains from the mash, steep them separately and add the liquid in the boil. I have tried this with beer that has large amounts of dark specialty grains (chocolate, black patent, etc.) and there is a noticeable taste difference. Again, I have only tried it with dark specialty grains. The result of not mashing the dark specialty grains resulted in a much more rounded roast flavor.

I don't know the science behind it, but the longer the dark specialty grains sit at a higher temp, the harsher their flavor characteristics become. As mentioned above, most of us just add all of it to the mash because we are lazy but there are noticeable differences when removing the specialty grains from the mash.

I don't mash dark grains either. Better flavor and consitent mash PH.

 

[unionrdr]

So far,I've been mashing them all together. I don't use but a couple ounces of dark grains anyway. I don't se how you're saving time doing a steep for 20 minutes after a 1 hour mash. sparging usually doesn't take quite that long for me,anyway.

 

[masterfool101]

So far,I've been mashing them all together. I don't use but a couple ounces of dark grains anyway. I don't se how you're saving time doing a steep for 20 minutes after a 1 hour mash. sparging usually doesn't take quite that long for me,anyway.

When I DO separate the grains for steeping/mashing, I generally run the processes concurrently. I start the mash, let it get about 30 or so minutes along, then get water ready for the steep. So I don't do one AFTER the other, but rather do them at the same time . . . so no loss of time. Then I just combine the 2 "worts" together for the boil. Since my partial mashes are usually far smaller than my boil volumes, I never have overrun, as I usually have to add water anyhow.

 

[Dylan42]

So heres my question. I am about to brew this extract Mens Room Red Clone that utilizes the steeping of specialty grains, do I steep per the instructions? Or should I steep for a certain amount of time at a certain temp?
And is it better to steep in 2 gal of water or do it in all 5 gal? ( I will be doing a full 5 gal boil vice doing a 2-3 gal boil concentrate)

Brew Instructions:

Mens Room Red

A Hoppy Amber from Elysian Brewing

7 lbs Light Malt Extract

1/2 lb Crystal 80 L Malt

1/2 lb Munich Malt

1/2 lb CaraHell Malt

1/2 lb Melanoidin Malt

1/2 lb Caravienne Malt

1 1/2 oz Chinook Hops 20 HBUs(Boiling)

2 oz Cascade Hops(flavor: 2 min)

Wyeast American Ale

Add cracked Crystal, Munich, Carahell, Melanoidin, and Caravienne Malts to 2 gals of cold water and bring to boil. When the boiling starts, remove the grain. Add the Light Malt Extract then bring to a boil again. Add 1 1/2 oz of Chinook hops. Boil for 58 mins. Add 2 oz of Cascade hops and boil for two minutes. Sparge the hops with cold water into the fermenter. Add the wort to the fermenter with cold water to make 5 gals. Add yeast when the temp reaches 70º.

 

[PJoyce85]

Everyone's steeping instructions seem to be just a bit different.

I would follow the instructions but since you will be doing a full boil, heat up all of your water at once and steep in that. There should be no difference from steeping in 2 gallons vs. 5.

Happy brewing!

 

[freisste]

Throw them in a bag and put them in the pot of water. Turn on the heat and bring the temp up. Probably pull the grains before it boils - 170f maybe. No need to leave it in any longer. Usually 15-20 minutes of steeping will be enough, and there is no need to boil. In fact, most people would probably recommend NOT boiling (I think).

 

[Dylan42]

Throw them in a bag and put them in the pot of water. Turn on the heat and bring the temp up. Probably pull the grains before it boils - 170f maybe. No need to leave it in any longer. Usually 15-20 minutes of steeping will be enough, and there is no need to boil. In fact, most people would probably recommend NOT boiling (I think).

Thats what I was wondering. Would leaving them in until boil extract tannins from the specialty grains creating some off flavors? Also, should I pay attention to PH levels during steeping?

I usually just go with the montra "if my tap water is good enough to drink, its good enough to brew with"

 

[unionrdr]

Whether steeping or mashing,never let the grains get anywhere near boiling. Mash,no more than 160F. Steeping,no more than 165F. Could get tannins out of the grain hulls,besides killing any enzymes in the grains that need to be mashed.

 

[Yooper]

7 lbs Light Malt Extract

1/2 lb Crystal 80 L Malt

1/2 lb Munich Malt

1/2 lb CaraHell Malt

1/2 lb Melanoidin Malt

1/2 lb Caravienne Malt

1 1/2 oz Chinook Hops 20 HBUs(Boiling)

2 oz Cascade Hops(flavor: 2 min)

Wyeast American Ale

Add cracked Crystal, Munich, Carahell, Melanoidin, and Caravienne Malts to 2 gals of cold water and bring to boil. When the boiling starts, remove the grain. Add the Light Malt Extract then bring to a boil again. Add 1 1/2 oz of Chinook hops. Boil for 58 mins. Add 2 oz of Cascade hops and boil for two minutes. Sparge the hops with cold water into the fermenter. Add the wort to the fermenter with cold water to make 5 gals. Add yeast when the temp reaches 70º.

Those instructions are very poor- do NOT follow them!

Thats what I was wondering. Would leaving them in until boil extract tannins from the specialty grains creating some off flavors? Also, should I pay attention to PH levels during steeping?

I usually just go with the montra "if my tap water is good enough to drink, its good enough to brew with"

It's not just tannin extraction- you have Munich malt in there, which must be mashed. By not holding it at under 160 for 45-60 minutes, you won't get conversion.

Put your grains together, in a bag if you have a big grain bag, and keep them in there loosely. Use 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. Bring that up to 160-163 (a good thermometer is crucial!) and add the grains and stir well. Check to make sure it's 150-155 and hold there for 1 hour. After 1 hour, lift up the grainbag into a big strainer over your brewpot and pour 170 degree water over it, rinsing the grains well, up to your boil volume. THEN discard the grains and proceed with the boil.

And yes, pH is important but you don't have to worry about it right now. You will get conversion with the technique listed above.

 

[PJoyce85]

Those instructions are very poor- do NOT follow them!

It's not just tannin extraction- you have Munich malt in there, which must be mashed. By not holding it at under 160 for 45-60 minutes, you won't get conversion.

Put your grains together, in a bag if you have a big grain bag, and keep them in there loosely. Use 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. Bring that up to 160-163 (a good thermometer is crucial!) and add the grains and stir well. Check to make sure it's 150-155 and hold there for 1 hour. After 1 hour, lift up the grainbag into a big strainer over your brewpot and pour 170 degree water over it, rinsing the grains well, up to your boil volume. THEN discard the grains and proceed with the boil.

And yes, pH is important but you don't have to worry about it right now. You will get conversion with the technique listed above.

I agree that the directions are poor. While Munich does need to be mashed, the rest of the grains do not and adding an extra hour onto brew day for a 1/2 lb of malt in an extract kit is unnecessary IMHO.

No matter how you do it, pulling the grains out before you go over 170° is a good idea.

 

[masterfool101]

I agree that the directions are poor. While Munich does need to be mashed, the rest of the grains do not and adding an extra hour onto brew day for a 1/2 lb of malt in an extract kit is unnecessary IMHO.

No matter how you do it, pulling the grains out before you go over 170° is a good idea.

I disagree with this.

First, if you want the beer to taste right, you mash right. And that means mashing the Munich. I'd mash with everything else on there, in one batch, rather than steep and mash separately.

Second, you won't add an hour. Maybe half an hour over steeping time. Normally, you'd steep 30 minutes . . . now you'll mash for 45. The biggest difference won't be time, it will be CONTROL. You'll have to watch the temperature carefully and keep it between 148 and 153.

 

[Dylan42]

I think I will do the partial mash for 45min and see how it turns out if anything its just a little more effort than steeping. Im sure it will turn out good either way.

 

[PJoyce85]

I disagree with this.

First, if you want the beer to taste right, you mash right. And that means mashing the Munich. I'd mash with everything else on there, in one batch, rather than steep and mash separately.

Second, you won't add an hour. Maybe half an hour over steeping time. Normally, you'd steep 30 minutes . . . now you'll mash for 45. The biggest difference won't be time, it will be CONTROL. You'll have to watch the temperature carefully and keep it between 148 and 153.

First, if you look at what Yooper wrote, she clearly stated letting the Munich sit for 1 hour at temperature.

Second, the original recipe that was posted with the Munich malt does not call for the Munich to be mashed, only steeped. So if you want the beer to taste the way it was intended when the kit was purchased, you steep the Munich. Conducting a mash with the Munich will change the flavor of the beer.

It is an extract recipe with specialty grains and not all grain. If they were going to mash the steeping grain then why not just switch to BIAB.

But I digress. I'm sure whichever way they choose (mentioned above), it will turn out well.

 

[Dylan42]

Those instructions are very poor- do NOT follow them!





It's not just tannin extraction- you have Munich malt in there, which must be mashed. By not holding it at under 160 for 45-60 minutes, you won't get conversion.

Put your grains together, in a bag if you have a big grain bag, and keep them in there loosely. Use 1-2 quarts of water per pound of grain. Bring that up to 160-163 (a good thermometer is crucial!) and add the grains and stir well. Check to make sure it's 150-155 and hold there for 1 hour. After 1 hour, lift up the grainbag into a big strainer over your brewpot and pour 170 degree water over it, rinsing the grains well, up to your boil volume. THEN discard the grains and proceed with the boil.

And yes, pH is important but you don't have to worry about it right now. You will get conversion with the technique listed above.

I ended up doing this with the help of the partial mash sticky and it was fun. I just did the BIAB on the stove and transferred it to my kettle in the garage. I really enjoyed it and, I felt like it was actually doing more for me then just tea bagging the grains for a few min. With the cool brewing fermentation bag and the starter I made the night before (first time using both) I have high hopes for this to be the best batch yet. I think for my next brew I will do a partial mash. Thanks for the tips!

 

[unionrdr]

There are caramunich malts that'd be better suited to steeping available.

 

[freisste]

I ended up doing this with the help of the partial mash sticky and it was fun. I just did the BIAB on the stove and transferred it to my kettle in the garage. I really enjoyed it and, I felt like it was actually doing more for me then just tea bagging the grains for a few min. With the cool brewing fermentation bag and the starter I made the night before (first time using both) I have high hopes for this to be the best batch yet. I think for my next brew I will do a partial mash. Thanks for the tips!

Have a good time! I think PM/AG BIAB is way more fun than extract. Nothing wrong with any method, I just like doing more and I'm not ready to shell out any cash for more equipment now.

Search all grain recipes and replace 5 lbs of two row with 3 lbs light or ultra light DME.